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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    But then you're missing potentially interesting content
    Yes - but what makes it so interesting is that it's an almost certain near-death-trap. So I'll come back later, feeling all full of myself, thinking 'o hell ya, I can beat this now!' And then, before I read the runes, I'll begin doubting whether that's actually true, but I'll do it regardless, and then I'll win, and it's an enormous triumph.

    And you can't do that without the death trap =)

  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    at what levels does one typically die in ToME?
    one of the things that's making it feel a bit bland at the moment is that most of the time i'm not in any real danger.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Attempted to try and do some modding of Crawl, to see if I could try out a god idea I had rambling around in my head, but while the text files on how to add specific items are decent enough, it was pretty much impossible for me to learn how on earth I actually get access to the files that I can edit to actually try and add something to the game. A pity.

    ---

    Also, add me to the list of people dissatisfied with ToME's equipment. I wonder if part of that might be determined by equipment, but for the most part I find new equipment to be very boring, and sometimes I end up under-equipped, just because I don't want to deal with sifting throughtons of random junk to find that one item that's actually an improvement.

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    ---

    Also, add me to the list of people dissatisfied with ToME's equipment. I wonder if part of that might be determined by equipment, but for the most part I find new equipment to be very boring, and sometimes I end up under-equipped, just because I don't want to deal with sifting throughtons of random junk to find that one item that's actually an improvement.
    I know I'm probably leaving a lot in the transmog chest that could potentially be useful, but for me it's a pretty simple check list: Does it improve my class's primary stat? Wear it in preference to most things. Does it offer Stun resistance and I'm not at 100% resist yet? Wear it. Does it offer an active use (shield, teleport, speed up, etc) that covers for an otherwise weak spot in my abilities? Wear it. Does it offer +damage or penetration for my preferred damage type? Wear it.

    ..is it heavy armor with the Dragon property? Ohmygod wear that. (Dragon gives Stun resistance, improves physical abilities, and reduces cooldown on the Rush talent. It's far and away my favorite armor property for any class that gets access to Rush.)

    If it doesn't meet any of the above, then it probably isn't going to make an enormous difference to me, and I'm likely going to burn it for gold. If it meets multiple of the above, it's probably got a permanent home on an equip slot (Notable things I don't care about: energy resistances, status resists that aren't Stun, Power points. Some of it will come along with the other stuff regardless due to how ToME generates items, but it's not a priority and will get removed in favor of something that fits the checklist.) The only real dilemmas come when I have multiple items that separately cover different categories, and that mostly comes down to what your tolerance is for swapping gear for special situation; I generally don't, and while I'm sure it's gotten me killed a few times it saves a ton of brain work trying to pick between possible equipment choices.

  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    On the topic of great items. A projection weapon is so far and away better than anything else for most melee classes that it's ridiculous. You really have to wonder why some things aren't better balanced.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    at what levels does one typically die in ToME?
    one of the things that's making it feel a bit bland at the moment is that most of the time i'm not in any real danger.
    Can't speak for anyone else, but most of the time I can get through all the low level dungeons and reach level 12 without too much trouble. It's the level 2 dungeons I struggle with--so far I've only cleared all four of them once, and that was with the character I mentioned earlier who died at level 22 in Dreadfell. This is playing in Adventurer mode, so it's actually a little bit easier because you get more than one life.

  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    But then you're missing potentially interesting content, and those prompts don't *always* mean instadeath--in fact, in this case I had three of them that most notably did *not* mean death. If they'd added a fourth pillar you had to inspect to raise the demon lord, with some very obvious "You really don't want to do this unless you're ready" foreshadowing text, I'd have been happier.

    Incidentally, I had a separate game running on my laptop where I was trying another Alchemist run, and I cleared three out of four tier 2 dungeons and got to Daikara at level 17 before getting trapped between a nasty stone giant boss and a Thunderer. Seems lightning damage in one form or another is often what gets me!
    Most of the time these "prompt" areas will start you out gentle and ramp up the difficulty an insane amount as you go along. This is true for most of them in the game. You might open a vault or something and roll through the first several fights only to find that the last mob is completely impossible to beat. One of the most important things you can do for any character is to get them the ability to run away, and remember to use it when you need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    at what levels does one typically die in ToME?
    one of the things that's making it feel a bit bland at the moment is that most of the time i'm not in any real danger.
    The thing that usually kills you in ToME is the uniques. They spawn with random skills so they can be easy, or absolutely deadly. Of course, some builds are simply stronger than others too, and some builds struggle more at different parts of the game.

  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    In ADOM, if I'm on level 42 currently, and still hold only .. um, it seems like it must be three orbs - yes, air, water and fire .. when about should I be running into the last couple of temples? Can I miss them? I know there's some sort of hokus-pokus with the mana temple.

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    In ADOM, if I'm on level 42 currently, and still hold only .. um, it seems like it must be three orbs - yes, air, water and fire .. when about should I be running into the last couple of temples? Can I miss them? I know there's some sort of hokus-pokus with the mana temple.
    Earth temple is around D:42-D:46, it's hidden on the right side of the level (iirc it's always right) though if you fart around for long enough on the floor you'll probably find like greater earth elementals popping out of the walls.

    GL with the boss!
    Last edited by Derjuin; 2019-02-23 at 07:51 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Have to say, I'm rather enjoying the Temporal Warden gameplay in ToME. I think my earlier assessment of it being an Archer with better evasion is right on the money--the short-range teleport TW gives you is far more useful than the Archer's "Disengage" because it allows you to move anywhere you can see within range, rather than having to jump back from the nearest monster. Just got through Daikara by the skin of my teeth and have just entered the Ruined Dungeon, am level 20. Not sure where's best to go after the dungeon--I know where the Golem Graveyard is, I have the Last Hope graveyard to do, and the belt of undeath I found will be most useful in the Lake of Nur. Is there anywhere else I should be considering before that lot?

    [EDIT] Never mind, died at level 21 in an illusory castle I got to through a book I read. Boss ghoul got two critical spells off in a row. Still, have Wyrmic and Paradox Mages to try out now...
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-02-23 at 08:52 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    Earth temple is around D:42-D:46, it's hidden on the right side of the level (iirc it's always right) though if you fart around for long enough on the floor you'll probably find like greater earth elementals popping out of the walls.

    GL with the boss!
    Air temple was on the left.

    Haven't found earth yes. Found a dragon vault - white ones. Killed 'em all. There was a named great wyrm in there too. I guess they're always named. Regardless, killed that one too. It's like ... melee isn't half bad. Troll guy goes an awful lot of damage. It's ... let's see: +120 to hit, 6d8+84 damage, and he crits more than not. He has backstab, and invisibility intrinsic, and find weakness, and ... courage. And stuff. He's quite fearsome, calling him a healer seems to be substantially off the mark.

    Currently I've collected a pile of stuff from that vault, and I can't decide whether to drag it up to dwarftown (that's, what, 20 levels up?) and sell it, or just ditch it and keep going lower.

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Air temple was on the left.

    Haven't found earth yes. Found a dragon vault - white ones. Killed 'em all. There was a named great wyrm in there too. I guess they're always named. Regardless, killed that one too. It's like ... melee isn't half bad. Troll guy goes an awful lot of damage. It's ... let's see: +120 to hit, 6d8+84 damage, and he crits more than not. He has backstab, and invisibility intrinsic, and find weakness, and ... courage. And stuff. He's quite fearsome, calling him a healer seems to be substantially off the mark.

    Currently I've collected a pile of stuff from that vault, and I can't decide whether to drag it up to dwarftown (that's, what, 20 levels up?) and sell it, or just ditch it and keep going lower.
    Healer is, funny enough, a great melee class if you can get through the early game (which trolls can do somewhat easily, thanks to starting with a club instead of a scalpel).

    If you've found the Ring of the High Kings, there should be a 2-way shortcut to the surface around D:32. Though that might still take you about 20 dungeon levels anyway.
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    GL with the boss!
    Jesus! Ok, so the ancient stone beast was ... a beast. But now, there's a vault in my temple, and according to the wiki, that has no business being there. There are at least 4 ancient karmic wyrms in there. I can't fight those. I have nothing outside melee that will bite those.

    I have the orb, though, so I guess I also don't have to.

  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Jesus! Ok, so the ancient stone beast was ... a beast. But now, there's a vault in my temple, and according to the wiki, that has no business being there. There are at least 4 ancient karmic wyrms in there. I can't fight those. I have nothing outside melee that will bite those.

    I have the orb, though, so I guess I also don't have to.
    Yeesh, karmic wyrms are rough. I'd recommend finding a way to just escape, and making travel between stairs on that floor as swift as possible.

    Just curious, are you going for a regular win or an ultra win?
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  15. - Top - End - #465
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Have to say, I'm rather enjoying the Temporal Warden gameplay in ToME. I think my earlier assessment of it being an Archer with better evasion is right on the money--the short-range teleport TW gives you is far more useful than the Archer's "Disengage" because it allows you to move anywhere you can see within range, rather than having to jump back from the nearest monster. Just got through Daikara by the skin of my teeth and have just entered the Ruined Dungeon, am level 20. Not sure where's best to go after the dungeon--I know where the Golem Graveyard is, I have the Last Hope graveyard to do, and the belt of undeath I found will be most useful in the Lake of Nur. Is there anywhere else I should be considering before that lot?

    [EDIT] Never mind, died at level 21 in an illusory castle I got to through a book I read. Boss ghoul got two critical spells off in a row. Still, have Wyrmic and Paradox Mages to try out now...
    Beware that last hope graveyard. It is absolutely brutal.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    Just curious, are you going for a regular win or an ultra win?
    Oh, regular will do just fine for me. I've played a bajillion games, and never been this far before. Now I'm stumbling around on UL2, trying to find the mana temple. There are molochs. It seems they're supposed to be hard - the wiki says so - but I'm not seeing it. I've run into some titans too, they're harder. Frankly, titans feel like they ought to drop something interesting.

    Edit: Oh, and emperor berserkers. What's up with those guys?! Jeez.
    Edit 2: Ah, I see. Greater molochs are terrifying!
    Edit 3: Obviously, there's a tension room of greater titans on the mana temple level.
    Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-02-24 at 05:03 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #467
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Beware that last hope graveyard. It is absolutely brutal.
    I know, I cleared it with my level 22 Summoner shortly before his stupid (and entirely my fault) death. Oddly, I had more difficulty with one of the master vampire bosses from the side rooms than I did with the main boss herself, though!

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Ok - one Nuurag-Vaarn down, I have the orbs, and can proceed to ... well, try to win the game. I still cannot decide whether I should go up, and sell the tons of valuable but useless gear I have. It seems I could use having max faith when I move on.

    Edit: Ok. I cannot defeat this many teleporting balors. I need a different approach - or to concede defeat. Bloody balors. Also corruption, btw.
    Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-02-24 at 12:19 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #469
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    OK, Paradox Mage is just all kinds of awesome. They don't quite have the same damage output as an Archmage, but the shielding ability they get makes their survivability a *lot* better. Currently got mine at level 23 and considering entering Dreadfell. (To the chap who said he didn't enter Dreadfell until level 30--how do you do that, exactly? I've cleared everything I can to get to 23, so I have no idea where another 7 levels of XP is coming from!).

  20. - Top - End - #470
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    OK, Paradox Mage is just all kinds of awesome. They don't quite have the same damage output as an Archmage, but the shielding ability they get makes their survivability a *lot* better. Currently got mine at level 23 and considering entering Dreadfell. (To the chap who said he didn't enter Dreadfell until level 30--how do you do that, exactly? I've cleared everything I can to get to 23, so I have no idea where another 7 levels of XP is coming from!).
    I've been at 30 after clearing Dreadfell; before even starting it is unusual, at least on Normal difficulty - higher enemy levels on higher difficulty bring quicker levels. Might be doable with a Yeek since they get a significant XP bonus as part of the trade for a super low base HP level.

    If you have the expansions there's a few extra zones you can access through those for some more levels, and once you've cleared the zone past Old Forest you can use the random dungeon generator, but that's mostly a good way to get yourself killed or bug out a dungeon map.

  21. - Top - End - #471
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    If you have the expansions there's a few extra zones you can access through those for some more levels, and once you've cleared the zone past Old Forest you can use the random dungeon generator
    Wassat? I've got access to the Sher'Tul Fortress, if that's what you mean, but I haven't found a random dungeon generator in there.

  22. - Top - End - #472
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    OK, Paradox Mage is just all kinds of awesome. They don't quite have the same damage output as an Archmage, but the shielding ability they get makes their survivability a *lot* better. Currently got mine at level 23 and considering entering Dreadfell. (To the chap who said he didn't enter Dreadfell until level 30--how do you do that, exactly? I've cleared everything I can to get to 23, so I have no idea where another 7 levels of XP is coming from!).
    I always try to hit 30 before dreadfell - on Insane it's a lot easier to do, more uniques and random bosses start appearing which are worth good chunks of XP.

    Also, a tip for PM if you haven't found it out yet - Attenuate stacks with itself. And with Seal Fate it refreshes itself. The ring that changes your damage to fire/cold/lightning/arcane causes Attenuate + Seal Fate to increase the duration of itself by 3 turns per turn, too.
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  23. - Top - End - #473
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Ok - one Nuurag-Vaarn down, I have the orbs, and can proceed to ... well, try to win the game. I still cannot decide whether I should go up, and sell the tons of valuable but useless gear I have. It seems I could use having max faith when I move on.

    Edit: Ok. I cannot defeat this many teleporting balors. I need a different approach - or to concede defeat. Bloody balors. Also corruption, btw.
    Use all of your ranged items, zap your wands, throw potions of blindness or whatever, before finally going into melee. If you throw potions of cure corruption at them, it will remove their corruption touch as well.

    Also, you probably know this already, but blessed weapons do 1.5x damage against demons.

  24. - Top - End - #474
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Wassat? I've got access to the Sher'Tul Fortress, if that's what you mean, but I haven't found a random dungeon generator in there.
    Farportal; the fortress Butler will send a popup when you've eaten enough gold worth of items to activate it.

  25. - Top - End - #475
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I know, I cleared it with my level 22 Summoner shortly before his stupid (and entirely my fault) death. Oddly, I had more difficulty with one of the master vampire bosses from the side rooms than I did with the main boss herself, though!
    Yeah, they're deadly. Especially
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    if you don't know what you're doing so you aggro the boss first and she wakes them all up at once...
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-02-25 at 12:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    The ring that changes your damage to fire/cold/lightning/arcane causes Attenuate + Seal Fate to increase the duration of itself by 3 turns per turn, too.
    I have that ring but I haven't been using Seal Fate at all...doesn't feel like I need it on normal difficulty!

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Farportal; the fortress Butler will send a popup when you've eaten enough gold worth of items to activate it.
    Oh, so *that's* what that is. I've activated it but didn't want to go through without knowing what was on the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Yeah, they're deadly. Especially
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    if you don't know what you're doing so you aggro the boss first and she wakes them all up at once...
    See, that's one of the situations where ToME makes it very obvious what you should do:

    Spoiler
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    It talks about the doors all being linked to the main door at the end of the corridor, so I immediately knew that opening that door without first clearing all the side rooms would be a very bad idea!


    Anyway, my PM is on level 8 of Dreadfell now and is up to level 28. Guess I'll shortly meet the Master for the first time, and assuming I beat him, I might have a try of that Farportal in the fortress.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Anyway, my PM is on level 8 of Dreadfell now and is up to level 28. Guess I'll shortly meet the Master for the first time, and assuming I beat him, I might have a try of that Farportal in the fortress.

    I'd advice against using the Farportal in the fortress, and recommend you just move further with the plot instead if you manage to beat the Master. It's almost certainly going to be more dangerous than whatever you are trying to gain more levels to beat. I think people mostly use it as a challenge thing to do at the very end of a run.

    I can sometimes hit lvl 30 before the Master, but it depends on race and which dungeons that spawn during a given run (some only have ~30% chance to appear).

    Also, Paradox Mage is so cool - my favourite class by far! It's thematically and mechanically awesome, and it has the tools to handle just about every situation - including a ton of 'panic button' powers that help you not die. Took a little while to figure it out, but when it clicked it was just amazing, and set me on the path to my very first victory. My only real 'complaint' with the class is that it has SO MUCH cool stuff that you don't have nearly enough points to unlock/invest in everything you want.
    Last edited by Corlindale; 2019-02-25 at 06:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I pretty much only use the farportal if I need extra money in the end-game. I don't think it's particularly dangerous, but the zones aren't particularly interesting either.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    About ToME, it's either the first time I picked the Steamroller perk, or it's long enough that I forgot about it, but it's a pretty fun perk. Might be not as optimal as some of the rest, but man it speeds things up!

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I won!

    Who'd have thunk it? Troll healers rock. Not that I could win against the final level, not by a long shot - way too many enemies that were way too tough. I could fight one of the balors at a time, but then I'd die to corruption.

    Oh, and let's be honest: I did not win anything like a Roguelike run. I must have save scummed a hundred times. But I'm fairly proud I figured out how to beat level 50 on my own.

    There remains the mystery of the disappearing book store. Heading down, I found a book store. That, in itself, isn't too sensational, but it stocked no less than 5 tracts of order - something a stout and lawful troll might use to shed corruption. I didn't buy them then, because they're pointlessly heavy, figuring that I'd buy them on the way out. But lo and behold if there wasn't no book store as I was leaving the caverns of chaos.

    In the end, I had to use my ring of djinni summoning to get rid of the corruptions. I retired in the faraway troll kingdoms, to be king, and rule long and wisely (having2 potions of longivety and one of youth in my backpack, I suppose I lived way past 50!!)

    Succes! Now to try something much less ... melee-ish. Which propably means back to failing like a noob =)

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