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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post

    Anyway. I gave a shot at the Anorilith class in ToME and sheesh. The early game is a pain. I've never had as much difficulty with the early game as I have here. I can generally make it to and beat the first boss easily. But those sun-worshippers seem... so weak.

    And of course, the one time I manage to get to the boss and break the portal, we get teleported... right next to an escort mission that gets immediately bumped off.

    Celestials have the most annoying starting area, in my opinion, it's not just about the classes being weak early. I mean, the Maggot is probably harder, but at least that one's optional. I've had moderate success with Anorithils, but it's tough to get past the early stages, and their weird casting resource mechanics take some getting used to.

    Inspired by this thread I've gone back to ToME a bit myself. I was trying out Cultist of Entropy, but it does not quite click with me. I think it's the complex juggling of status effects that turn me off a bit - I like to play ToME in a more casual way, where I don't have to think that much during gameplay, but with Cultist I have to keep track of my entropy levels, as well as the various effects that trigger upon x numbers of casting or x numbers of applied debuffs, and it impairs my enjoyment a bit.

    I think I'll start out a Doombringer instead - I usually find that a nice antidote when I come off playing one of more complex classes. Sometimes you just want to stride into melee in heavy armor and set fire to everyone.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Yeah. This is where the game really starts to open up. I've got a couple spoilers here for things you might want to learn about.

    Spoiler: Ring of the High Kings
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    This is an artifact ring that you'll want eventually anyway. You don't need it to win, but it makes something later on a lot easier to bypass. Lemme know if this is too vague for you. Anyhow, the ring gives all the basic breath weapon resistances and some PV and DV, and being an artifact it's indestructible. It's basically a plain upgrade on your rings of fire resistance.

    It's found at the bottom of a dungeon past the mountain range north of Elsa's castle. Protect your boots of levitation. You'll need them. Don't even try to swim in the red water.


    Spoiler: Elemental Gauntlets
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    So remember the dwarven graveyard and the quest you got? Well, if you've managed to do the quest there, you should know that there's two artifacts there that you may want to check out. The first is a sword that you can get by digging up the grave there. The second artifact is hidden in a secret room at the back of the chamber. There's a tough enemy, but the gauntlets he protect are very useful. They're guaranteed gauntlets that provide resistances, protect all rings worn from item destruction, and halves the corruption of using the elemental orbs when you find them.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Well, I finally managed to clear a tier 2 dungeon with a character--my second Archer cleared out the Maze, and then cleared all the elementals who decided to attack Derth. Then, brimming with my usual overconfidence I went in to get the wizard responsible for that (at level 14), and got my butt handed to me as I probably should have expected. Oh, and I unlocked the Cursed class, tried out a dwarf one, and died on the first level of Reknor because, well, they seem a bit rubbish to be honest...

  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, I finally managed to clear a tier 2 dungeon with a character--my second Archer cleared out the Maze, and then cleared all the elementals who decided to attack Derth. Then, brimming with my usual overconfidence I went in to get the wizard responsible for that (at level 14), and got my butt handed to me as I probably should have expected. Oh, and I unlocked the Cursed class, tried out a dwarf one, and died on the first level of Reknor because, well, they seem a bit rubbish to be honest...
    Reknor's one of the rougher starting zones, largely because it contains Orcs. They're pretty much all classed enemies, and you tend to run into them in packs with something like one archer and two melee enemies. Take it slow, make sure you always have your shield/regen rune available to go into a fight, and let the NPC dwarf that's with you handle the brunt of the fighting if you need to (Reknor auto-levels you when you go down the stairs to help make up for the XP he soaks away from you.) Dwarves themselves are an OK race, Cursed are generally considered a weaker class - they need a pretty decent handful of levels and skill points before they really take off, and a start zone like Reknor doesn't give them a lot of chance to do that.

    Edit: The zone you get access to by clearing the attack on Derth is best approached with a lot of Lightning Resistance, Stun Resistance, or both - the boss's worst trick is a hefty lightning damage-over-time effect that checks Stun resistance to apply. There's also a bunch more storm elementals and usually some lightning-throwing giants there, like the usual Daikara maps its based on.
    Last edited by tyckspoon; 2019-02-14 at 03:31 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Edit: The zone you get access to by clearing the attack on Derth is best approached with a lot of Lightning Resistance, Stun Resistance, or both - the boss's worst trick is a hefty lightning damage-over-time effect that checks Stun resistance to apply.
    Yeah, I figured out the boss's reliance on lightning because that's what he killed me with! The lightning elementals weren't too much of an issue--with the equipment I had I could usually two-shot them, often before they got close enough to unleash their attack, so I just had to avoid getting crowded by them.

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yeah, I figured out the boss's reliance on lightning because that's what he killed me with! The lightning elementals weren't too much of an issue--with the equipment I had I could usually two-shot them, often before they got close enough to unleash their attack, so I just had to avoid getting crowded by them.
    It's one of the hardest zones on the first continent, so don't feel bad about dying there. I usually put it off as long as possible, often doing it as one of the very last areas before leaving for the second continent. Sometimes a bit earlier if I'm playing an Antimagic character, then I typically feel a little more confident about facing him, and
    Spoiler: Quest reward
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    the Antimagic-exclusive reward is also pretty neat, since I love the Fungus tree.
    .
    Last edited by Corlindale; 2019-02-15 at 06:42 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I didn't even know there was a second continent! I obviously knew there was an uncrossable sea at the south side of the land with some more land on the other side, but I had no idea if I was ever supposed to go there or if it was just window dressing. So far I've defeated a maximum of 1 tier 2 dungeon, this is going to take me a while!

    [EDIT] Having a second go at a Summoner, and I've discovered it makes things a lot easier when you realise that high Cunning gives you the ability to summon multiple critters at the same time. Currently (level 12) can have 3 out from a choice of 7, and so far nothing is even getting close to me.
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-02-15 at 03:40 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I've laid my dirty mitts on the second orb. I'm frankly terribly impressed with myself - I even killed to ACW in melee. He was just suddenly there, and all I could think of was 'GAAHH - DIE! DIE-DIE!' It worked. I had expected him to remain on his altar, but ... well, he's the only one who can see invisible, so maybe I shouldn't have been surprised.

    Now I'm unsure whether I should clear the room, cause .. that's good experience in there. But even blessed fireproof blankets don't last forever, right? So maybe I should just leggit for the exit.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    :

    [EDIT] Having a second go at a Summoner, and I've discovered it makes things a lot easier when you realise that high Cunning gives you the ability to summon multiple critters at the same time. Currently (level 12) can have 3 out from a choice of 7, and so far nothing is even getting close to me.
    Summoner is one of the easier classes, yeah. Was my first winning one; I took everything I could find that increased action speed and ended up doing something silly like dumping out 5 summons in 2 turns. A tip, assuming you get there- the Hydra is super cautious about friendly fire and won't use its breath weapons when it will hit you or another of your summons. Call it first if you're going to use it so it gets a chance to fire before you start jamming up its clear attack zone.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    I've laid my dirty mitts on the second orb. I'm frankly terribly impressed with myself - I even killed to ACW in melee. He was just suddenly there, and all I could think of was 'GAAHH - DIE! DIE-DIE!' It worked. I had expected him to remain on his altar, but ... well, he's the only one who can see invisible, so maybe I shouldn't have been surprised.

    Now I'm unsure whether I should clear the room, cause .. that's good experience in there. But even blessed fireproof blankets don't last forever, right? So maybe I should just leggit for the exit.
    Haven't cleared the temple in ages. There'll be as much experience as you could ever want elsewhere.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Haven't cleared the temple in ages. There'll be as much experience as you could ever want elsewhere.
    Well ... yes. But, I'm a troll, and there's so much concentrated XP right there, taunting me.

    Regardless, I didn't go for it. I'm past the wall of flame and the eternal guardian now, in the casino, and overwhelmed by the sheer size of the shop. I feel I need to ID everything in there, and pick the stuff I want, but there's hundreds of items, and I ... I'm just no sure I can be arsed. It'll take forever, and be boring as all hell.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Well ... yes. But, I'm a troll, and there's so much concentrated XP right there, taunting me.

    Regardless, I didn't go for it. I'm past the wall of flame and the eternal guardian now, in the casino, and overwhelmed by the sheer size of the shop. I feel I need to ID everything in there, and pick the stuff I want, but there's hundreds of items, and I ... I'm just no sure I can be arsed. It'll take forever, and be boring as all hell.
    Congrats on making it that far. Still, it doesn't get easy from there on. The remaining temples can be a bother.

  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Congrats on making it that far. Still, it doesn't get easy from there on. The remaining temples can be a bother.
    I'm continually surprised at not dying. But I do think I have damn near every intrinsic in the game, so that helps. I found darkforge, and was instantly teleported into melee with 9 (I think) metal golems - but I just murdered them, no sweat what so ever. That was another 'wow - I'm not dead' moment.

    And I read somewhere that the Tower of Eternal Flames is the hardest part of the game. That seems suspect, knowning about the bug temple for instance, but still. I'm cautiously hopeful that I'll get to see ... well, more. On the other hand, now that I've clearly jinxed it, I'll propably be done soon =)

  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    I'm continually surprised at not dying. But I do think I have damn near every intrinsic in the game, so that helps. I found darkforge, and was instantly teleported into melee with 9 (I think) metal golems - but I just murdered them, no sweat what so ever. That was another 'wow - I'm not dead' moment.

    And I read somewhere that the Tower of Eternal Flames is the hardest part of the game. That seems suspect, knowning about the bug temple for instance, but still. I'm cautiously hopeful that I'll get to see ... well, more. On the other hand, now that I've clearly jinxed it, I'll propably be done soon =)
    the bit about ToEF being the hardest part, it's actually true, if you add an qualifier onto it ... ToEF is the hardest mandatory part of the game
    Last edited by Sian; 2019-02-17 at 06:28 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    the bit about ToEF being the hardest part, it's actually true, if you add an qualifier onto it ... ToEF is the hardest mandatory part of the game
    Oh? Well, it wasn't very hard. I'm pretty sure the ACW could have just as easily won, but I just beat it down with in melee. So now I wonder what's next. I'll have to clear out the darkforge, because my gear isn't ... as good as I want. But at least I finally got a decent set of 1-hander+shield. If I ever want to not use my 2-hander, that is. It's just going to take forever to train a new weapon skill =(

    Edit: Another new thing - I never imagined I'd need to worry about the cat lord. So there's every reason to expect he's .... quite strong, now.
    Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-02-17 at 09:30 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Well, thus endeth my best ToME run by a country mile--my summoner made it all the way to level 5 of Dreadfell and character level 22 before dying due to my carelessness (I had heal infusions available but didn't notice my health had dropped perilously low). Also unlocked the time-based class whose name I forget, so will probably see how those work next.

  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    And I read somewhere that the Tower of Eternal Flames is the hardest part of the game. That seems suspect, knowning about the bug temple for instance, but still. I'm cautiously hopeful that I'll get to see ... well, more. On the other hand, now that I've clearly jinxed it, I'll propably be done soon =)
    Sian has the right of it - the bug temple doesn't really count because it's completely optional. That means you can go there anytime you want, or not at all. Haven't been there in ages.

    The ToEF gets its reputation from the fact that it's really quite difficult, and gates off the deeper portion of the CoC behind the wall of eternal flames. You just run out of other places to go to prepare for it. That was especially true in ADOM 1.1.1, before the addition of random dungeons, the ice queen domain and other ways to gear up. Of all the locations in the game, it's the most likely to have even experienced players try to tackle it without being truly ready.

    Fighting the Ancient Chaos Wyrm in melee is very dangerous - just because the outcome was fortunate doesn't mean you did a smart thing. If it rolls several crits in one turn you can easily be toast even with a substantial HP pool. It's probably better to fight it at range, despite its unresistable energy attack.

    Post-ToEF, you get access to plenty of dungeon levels to explore at your leisure, and most importantly by far you get to the Casino. Power in ADOM doesn't come from levels, it comes from loot - and the Casino shop is the single biggest high quality loot drop you will ever see. You can still run into dangerous situations later, but you'll have high quality equipment and powerful items to match.
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  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Post-ToEF, you get access to plenty of dungeon levels to explore at your leisure, and most importantly by far you get to the Casino. Power in ADOM doesn't come from levels, it comes from loot - and the Casino shop is the single biggest high quality loot drop you will ever see. You can still run into dangerous situations later, but you'll have high quality equipment and powerful items to match.
    See - that bothers me somewhat. I was in the casino shop, and ... well, I was looking for a better 1-hander, so I picked up the most expensive one there. It was like 250k gold, and ... it was utter crap. An adamantine scimitar with 2d8+6 damage. That's it.

    There's more expensive stuff in there, a full plate at 500k, a halberg at slightly less ... but really, nothing truly impressive seems to be there at all.

    Anyways, I didn't claim it was wise to melee the ACW - it was just there, suddenly, around the corner and I was face to face with it. So I hit it, landed a big crit (for like a quarter of it's health) and figured 'oh hey - I can do this'. And I did. Also my troll dude doesn't do much of anything at range. He has tons of wands, but big enemies shrug those off effortlessly.

    The cat lord was much worse, though. Holy crap, that was a fight for the ages. Haven't had to save scum for a long time, but I think I did that fight over and over again for .. an hour. In the end, I melee'd him too, just with substantial divine support =)

  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Does ADOM still have a free download that doesn't involve piracy? I know for a fact I won't like the game, but it tickles just enough of my fancy that I have to try it so that I can stop trying to convince myself to buy it.
    Avatar courtesy of Ceika.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Does ADOM still have a free download that doesn't involve piracy? I know for a fact I won't like the game, but it tickles just enough of my fancy that I have to try it so that I can stop trying to convince myself to buy it.
    Yes it does. Scroll past the paid options, the free version is below.

    It's even the same version, in all that matters, as the paid one.

  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Does ADOM still have a free download that doesn't involve piracy? I know for a fact I won't like the game, but it tickles just enough of my fancy that I have to try it so that I can stop trying to convince myself to buy it.
    Right here on the official homepage.

    edit: should have refreshed that page before responding
    Last edited by Iruka; 2019-02-18 at 01:52 PM.


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  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, thus endeth my best ToME run by a country mile--my summoner made it all the way to level 5 of Dreadfell and character level 22 before dying due to my carelessness (I had heal infusions available but didn't notice my health had dropped perilously low). Also unlocked the time-based class whose name I forget, so will probably see how those work next.
    Temporal Warden or Paradox Mage, I forget which one you open first. They're both pretty good.

  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I picked up Slay The Spire to check out the new "act 4" since it's officially released now. All I can say about it is...we waited a year for this?? It's 2 fights long and I beat it on the first try. The game is still great overall, and I definitely got my money's worth...but I was expecting more.

    Especially when they made me go back and beat the game with all 3 classes again, despite the fact that I've already done that multiple times in the past.

  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Temporal Warden or Paradox Mage, I forget which one you open first. They're both pretty good.
    IIRC you open Temporal Warden first, which in turn are used to open Paradox Mage

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I picked up Slay The Spire to check out the new "act 4" since it's officially released now. All I can say about it is...we waited a year for this?? It's 2 fights long and I beat it on the first try. The game is still great overall, and I definitely got my money's worth...but I was expecting more.

    Especially when they made me go back and beat the game with all 3 classes again, despite the fact that I've already done that multiple times in the past.
    Avoid early access like the plague. Cause, it's the plague. I was madly in love with Sunless Sea, and played it extensively in EA - but all that meant was that I never got to play the finished game, because I was done with it before it came out. So all I got out of that was a gaming experience that would have been better if I'd waited.

    Does Sunless Sea count? Not really, I guess, for one thing it's not really randomly generated. Just shuffled.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, thus endeth my best ToME run by a country mile--my summoner made it all the way to level 5 of Dreadfell and character level 22 before dying due to my carelessness (I had heal infusions available but didn't notice my health had dropped perilously low). Also unlocked the time-based class whose name I forget, so will probably see how those work next.
    Only level 22? I am generally nearing 30 when I go to Dreadfell. In that regard, I usually don't struggle too much with Dreadfell once I get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    the bit about ToEF being the hardest part, it's actually true, if you add an qualifier onto it ... ToEF is the hardest mandatory part of the game
    With the guaranteed fireproof blanket, resilient equipment, ring of fire resistance and elemental gauntlets, I honestly don't find ToEF that hard these days. I find the Air Temple worse, because unlike ToEF, there's nothing you can do to protect your equipment from destruction. Sure, your stash can be a whole lot closer, but if you're relying on wands or potions, you're all but guaranteed to have em destroyed when you really need them. At least if you've got my brand of luck.

    ---

    Anyway, I had a very weird thing happen in my game. Srraxxarrakex, the wyrm that you have to kill in the blue dragon cavern for the karmic wyvern quest, didn't spawn. Anyone know what could cause that to happen? And if there's anything I can do to fix it?

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    With the guaranteed fireproof blanket, resilient equipment, ring of fire resistance and elemental gauntlets, I honestly don't find ToEF that hard these days. I find the Air Temple worse, because unlike ToEF, there's nothing you can do to protect your equipment from destruction. Sure, your stash can be a whole lot closer, but if you're relying on wands or potions, you're all but guaranteed to have em destroyed when you really need them. At least if you've got my brand of luck.
    As an almost exclusively melee troll, Air Temple was quite easy. I got some impressive poisoning from the chaos snake, but I had herbs, and absurd health regen, so I was never really pressured.

    I wonder about health regen, btw. I'm quite sure I have max natural regen, but what if I equip gear to further bolster it - does that even work? Never mind if it's worth it, I'm fairly sure I need other things from my neck slot more, but how high can I push it?

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Natural HP Regen maxes out at 1 HP per 5 turns. I think the Healthy talent doubles that now.

    The Healing skill is separate and adds another 1 per every 8 turns or so? (Edit: it's 8 per 100 - 1 per 12.5)

    The really powerful stuff is magical regeneration provided by items - that's 1 HP per turn and stacks without diminishing returns.
    Last edited by Silfir; 2019-02-19 at 05:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Natural HP Regen maxes out at 1 HP per 5 turns. I think the Healthy talent doubles that now.

    The Healing skill is separate and adds another 1 per every 8 turns or so?

    The really powerful stuff is magical regeneration provided by items - that's 1 HP per turn and stacks without diminishing returns.
    I think Troll Guy gets +5 HP every ... 4 or 5 turns, something pretty close to that. And then occasionally, he get's another +1 HP out of sequence, so to speak. And that's without the amulet which resides in his inventory. Bottom line I think I only have petrification resistance from an amulet, so that's the one I use most of the time.

    But how his regen works out mechanically I simply dunno. He's a healer, with 100% healing skill, a troll, with healthy talent. He regens a lot, but like I said, precisely how much, and how and why, I don't know.

  30. - Top - End - #420
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Iruka's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen
    Does Sunless Sea count? Not really, I guess, for one thing it's not really randomly generated. Just shuffled.
    Good question, how random does stuff have to be to counted among the rogue-likes? I played some Rogue Legacy in the last days and, pretty similar to SS, the map is generated by reshuffling predetermined room layouts.

    One of the biggest problems with Sunless Sea was the combination of rogue-like mandatory replays in combination with basically mandatory story segments that always stayed the same. No matter how grate the atmosphere, after the 20th time you just skip through the text, annoyed that you have go again through the same quests again.

    Have you tried Sunless Skies?
    Last edited by Iruka; 2019-02-19 at 06:05 AM.


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