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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Hmmm. I messed up slightly--I went to Reknor without having explored the Spellblaze thingy, and I couldn't be bothered to come out and then go back down through all the levels to take the portal, so I've headed over to the Far East now. Level 31, picked my first Prodigy (the Willpower one that means I'm immune to mind effects), now to explore. I've unlocked four classes (Brawler, Wyrmic, Reaver and Anorithil) and one race (Ghoul) during this run!

  2. - Top - End - #482
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Hmmm. I messed up slightly--I went to Reknor without having explored the Spellblaze thingy, and I couldn't be bothered to come out and then go back down through all the levels to take the portal, so I've headed over to the Far East now. Level 31, picked my first Prodigy (the Willpower one that means I'm immune to mind effects), now to explore. I've unlocked four classes (Brawler, Wyrmic, Reaver and Anorithil) and one race (Ghoul) during this run!
    Eh, Spellblaze is largely optional, although if you haven't done it a time or two before there's a couple of fairly nice unlocks related to it. You'll be going back to the West sooner or later anyways, you can go through it then. When/if you do make it back West, go back through the level 1 and 2 dungeons (the ones the game gave you quest notes about) - they'll have a new boss enemy in them you can kill for some nice XP and artifacts.

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    There remains the mystery of the disappearing book store. Heading down, I found a book store. That, in itself, isn't too sensational, but it stocked no less than 5 tracts of order - something a stout and lawful troll might use to shed corruption. I didn't buy them then, because they're pointlessly heavy, figuring that I'd buy them on the way out. But lo and behold if there wasn't no book store as I was leaving the caverns of chaos.
    Perhaps it was in the unreal caves? Also, tracts of order appear to remove only about 10% of a corruption's worth of ...well, corruption, so they might not be the best way to do so.
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  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    still working on my first ToME game; got all the level 2 dungeons done now.
    I often wonder how much my high saves are doing for me; it seems hard to tell how much of an effect they're having.
    had a few near deaths, so I'm glad it's getting tough.
    i'm level 18 or so now.
    picked up some nice items in the last dungeon, though it seemed odd that there were a few tier 5 items in there iirc; as I'd only expect 2's and 3's given the monster levels.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

  5. - Top - End - #485
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    picked up some nice items in the last dungeon, though it seemed odd that there were a few tier 5 items in there iirc; as I'd only expect 2's and 3's given the monster levels.
    Golden chests, right? The chance for out-of-level items like that is the whole point of those chests, it's normal; it's the main reason to do the Maze and Sandworm Lair. (Well, alright, the Sandworm Queen's Heart is a really good reason to do Sandworms, but the increased appearance of gold chests is a pretty close second.) Getting lucky enough to land a tier-5 material weapon of a category you can actually use is a huge power bump.

  6. - Top - End - #486
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    Perhaps it was in the unreal caves? Also, tracts of order appear to remove only about 10% of a corruption's worth of ...well, corruption, so they might not be the best way to do so.
    I checked the unreal caves. I was sufficiently lucky with them that I found the temple without any dead ends. It wasn't there - it was highly frustrating =)

    Anyways, whenever you end the game, you get a list of all the artifacts created - also the ones you didn't find. Does that annoy anyone but me? There were all sorts of neat weapons, and a shield I never saw. Darn it! =)

  7. - Top - End - #487
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I'm having the most annoying run in ToME of all time. I'm getting absolutely nothing for gear drops at all. I'm 6 dungeons in and I haven't even seen a green weapon, and I'm getting nothing with stats on it, so I'm having to actually invest in sub-optimal stats to get the abilities I need instead of just gear swapping. Every unique I've gotten so far has either been a bow (that my class doesn't use) or something for the light slot. Also no good infusions, so every time I get a debuff it's almost a death sentence. It's actually completely ridiculous. I'm telling myself that eventually I'll have a run of good luck to balance all this bad...but it's not happening yet.

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I'm having the most annoying run in ToME of all time. I'm getting absolutely nothing for gear drops at all. I'm 6 dungeons in and I haven't even seen a green weapon, and I'm getting nothing with stats on it, so I'm having to actually invest in sub-optimal stats to get the abilities I need instead of just gear swapping. Every unique I've gotten so far has either been a bow (that my class doesn't use) or something for the light slot. Also no good infusions, so every time I get a debuff it's almost a death sentence. It's actually completely ridiculous. I'm telling myself that eventually I'll have a run of good luck to balance all this bad...but it's not happening yet.
    I assume you've checked the shops, esp those in shatur and last hope? Thats pretty rough either way though.
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  9. - Top - End - #489
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    for ToME is there a benchmark list somewhere? of typical stats by each level?
    since it's my first char, I have no basis for comparison yet, so I'm wondering if there's one on its wiki or something.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

  10. - Top - End - #490
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    I assume you've checked the shops, esp those in shatur and last hope? Thats pretty rough either way though.
    I did eventually cave and go to a shop, but I just kept telling myself that there had to be something I could use just around the corner. I prefer to save my gold for when I absolutely need it.

  11. - Top - End - #491
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    So having kinda/sorta won with troll guy (save scumming makes it not really count, right?), I've now made an elf wizard instead. The absurd shift in durability is something to wrap my head around, elf guy goes from full health to almost dead from the strangest things.

    So I brought along the swordman from the goblin camp, and tried my damndest to keep him alive. This nearly got me killed on several counts, and eventually I ran into a .. are they called tempests? The things that explode in your face .. one of those, and it insta-gipped sword guy. As a matter of fact, it damn near insta-gibbed elf guy too. This was on the Keethrax level, I didn't expect to have vortices there. They're called vortex, right?

    So now I've done the early quests, and elf guy is all set to go die in the CoC. I feel keenly that he'll die just beyond dwarftown, as has always been traditional. Maybe I can only play troll healers.

  12. - Top - End - #492
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Something I’d suggest Keen, is actually to do an Orc Paladin, still quite durable, but they’ll be able to do most noncombat magic with little investment

  13. - Top - End - #493
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Something I’d suggest Keen, is actually to do an Orc Paladin, still quite durable, but they’ll be able to do most noncombat magic with little investment
    But I hate orcs so fervently =)

    I'm actually slightly unsure what 'noncombat' magic might be interesting. Troll guy had all sorts of stuff which I rarely used. Darkness, and bless, saw occasional use, and I used teleport to escape D:50. I used magic map on the bunny level. But except for extremely occasional things, I just melee'd stuff to death - or, when that failed, spammed wands.

    Orcs though. I mean, turning lawful shouldn't be too hard, I can just kill Hotzenplotz for the amulet. But still. It's an orc.

    For now though, elf guy remains alive, so I'll see how long he lasts. Then I'll consider orc guy =)

  14. - Top - End - #494
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Elf wizards are pretty rad. Just try to work on your Toughness. Morgia roots, Food Preservation into undead corpses, that sort of stuff.

    You kinda have to train your melee a bit as well, just in case. Of course on weaker monsters. I recommend spear + tower shield. Wizarding is mostly about trying to figure out who to spend your mana on, and who to train your melee on.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2019-02-27 at 05:24 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #495
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Elf wizards are pretty rad. Just try to work on your Toughness. Morgia roots, Food Preservation into undead corpses, that sort of stuff.

    You kinda have to train your melee a bit as well, just in case. Of course on weaker monsters. I recommend spear + tower shield. Wizarding is mostly about trying to figure out who to spend your mana on, and who to train your melee on.
    This is actually precisely what I'm doing. A decent orc spear (yea I hate orcs, but their weapons are nice), poke all the rats ever, train some bowmanship on orcs (ha!) and hobgoblins, and magic for anything with the damage range to be an actual threat.

    Also, I've started with not one but two ball spells (well I started-started with one, but found the other in the very first level of the very first dungeon), and I simply cannot overstate the pleasure I derive from gathering a pile of mooks, say barbarians, tightly around me and exploding them all. Queue the maniacal laughter, please.

    It's funny, actually, cause when I played the ASCII version years ago, I never, ever got a ball spell. Are they a later addition?

    Edit: Actually - come to think of it - the two ball spells are fireball ... and improved fireball. So it's less of a windfall than say, getting fire and acid right off the bat, right? But still. Gifthorse.
    Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-02-27 at 09:11 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #496
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I did eventually cave and go to a shop, but I just kept telling myself that there had to be something I could use just around the corner. I prefer to save my gold for when I absolutely need it.
    Gold in ToME is mostly meaningless; using it to make up for bad or no drops is the correct play. I like to check the weapon, rune, and infusion shops in Last Hope (a tier 3 material weapon 'of massacre' hits like a tier 4 item and should be affordable after your first or second dungeon) and the rune and jewelry shops in Angolwen. Zigur's stores are another good place if you have access, and Angolwen's staff shop is your chance for an early improved weapon for staff users.

    I strongly recommend at least buying a weapon for most characters - jumping from tier 1 damage ratings to tier 3 or 4 early really helps smooth out the lower levels. It does have an unfortunate side effect of making almost all low level artifact weapons pointless.

  17. - Top - End - #497
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?

  18. - Top - End - #498
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?
    I dump some stuff there, but haven't fully seen a useful payback so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    This is actually precisely what I'm doing. A decent orc spear (yea I hate orcs, but their weapons are nice), poke all the rats ever, train some bowmanship on orcs (ha!) and hobgoblins, and magic for anything with the damage range to be an actual threat.

    Also, I've started with not one but two ball spells (well I started-started with one, but found the other in the very first level of the very first dungeon), and I simply cannot overstate the pleasure I derive from gathering a pile of mooks, say barbarians, tightly around me and exploding them all. Queue the maniacal laughter, please.

    It's funny, actually, cause when I played the ASCII version years ago, I never, ever got a ball spell. Are they a later addition?

    Edit: Actually - come to think of it - the two ball spells are fireball ... and improved fireball. So it's less of a windfall than say, getting fire and acid right off the bat, right? But still. Gifthorse.
    Nah, Ball spells go back far, IIRC. They are rarer than bolts, though, and wizards get more spells, so it's a bit unlikely to be seen by classes other than wizards.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2019-02-27 at 12:01 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #499
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Acid Ball is oft considered the strongest damage spell

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?
    I've got two Mercy daggers in mine for a madness temp warden, whenever i decide i'm actually insane enough to try that.
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  21. - Top - End - #501
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?
    I usually use it for transferring a weapon - the system doesn't put a level requirement on something if there's already a stat requirement to use it, so you can pass over like an end-game weapon and heavy armor suit to your next Berserker, and assuming you've been stacking Strength and maybe found a couple of reasonable +Strength items you can use it as soon as you're able to gain access to the Fortress.

    I used it once to set up a character with the complete Black item set. Fun run, but not as effective as I would have hoped compared to using independent items, and that character ended up dying. Having like 300% base movespeed from the boots was neat, tho.

  22. - Top - End - #502
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Ah well, I knew it was going too well. RIP Xodarap the Paradox Mage (I wasn't feeling very creative when I named him, all right?), died to an Orc High Cryomancer on level 2 of Vor Pride. He got to level 33, which is by far and away the furthest I've got any character.

  23. - Top - End - #503
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Ah well, I knew it was going too well. RIP Xodarap the Paradox Mage (I wasn't feeling very creative when I named him, all right?), died to an Orc High Cryomancer on level 2 of Vor Pride. He got to level 33, which is by far and away the furthest I've got any character.
    I'm impressed with how fast you are advancing, to be honest. It took ages before I even reached the Far East, and then even longer before I actually managed to do stuff there without dying to every random orc patrol.

  24. - Top - End - #504
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Ah well, I knew it was going too well. RIP Xodarap the Paradox Mage (I wasn't feeling very creative when I named him, all right?), died to an Orc High Cryomancer on level 2 of Vor Pride. He got to level 33, which is by far and away the furthest I've got any character.
    My Doombringer is around there as well, though admittedly, I'm playing on Adventure rather than permadeath. I recalled the prides being pretty tough, so I went back to the west to take care of the backup bosses right now.

  25. - Top - End - #505
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Nah, Ball spells go back far, IIRC. They are rarer than bolts, though, and wizards get more spells, so it's a bit unlikely to be seen by classes other than wizards.
    But I've played tons of wizards in my time. Pretty sure I never found a ball spell. But then, I'm really not very good at the game, so maybe they simply never survived for long enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Acid Ball is oft considered the strongest damage spell
    That was my understanding. I have acid bolt, which I use sparingly, because it 1-shots .. everything it touches =)

  26. - Top - End - #506
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    in ToME what difficulty level are people playing at?
    I'm on normal so far, since it's still my first game I'm slowly playing through.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

  27. - Top - End - #507
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    in ToME what difficulty level are people playing at?
    I'm on normal so far, since it's still my first game I'm slowly playing through.
    Normal/Adventurer, usually. I've messed with Nightmare some, which is mostly not hugely different from Normal - the main thing I've noticed so far is that patrols are a lot more dangerous thanks to the extra levels they get, so I die more when I do something I can safely do on Normal like trying to farm them for better loot.

    My Doombringer is around there as well, though admittedly, I'm playing on Adventure rather than permadeath. I recalled the prides being pretty tough, so I went back to the west to take care of the backup bosses right now.
    That's usually my route too - go East, immediately do the quests to go back West, do backup bosses and the elf-mummies dungeon, head back East and start clearing Prides.

  28. - Top - End - #508
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Gold in ToME is mostly meaningless; using it to make up for bad or no drops is the correct play. I like to check the weapon, rune, and infusion shops in Last Hope (a tier 3 material weapon 'of massacre' hits like a tier 4 item and should be affordable after your first or second dungeon) and the rune and jewelry shops in Angolwen. Zigur's stores are another good place if you have access, and Angolwen's staff shop is your chance for an early improved weapon for staff users.

    I strongly recommend at least buying a weapon for most characters - jumping from tier 1 damage ratings to tier 3 or 4 early really helps smooth out the lower levels. It does have an unfortunate side effect of making almost all low level artifact weapons pointless.

    You're probably right that it's the optimal play, but it's not like I normally die in the newbie dungeons anyway, so I don't really need the power spike there. I typically prefer to save my gold for a specific item to round out my build, or a good rune and then horde for artifacts in the end-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?
    No, it feels too much like cheating to me.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-02-28 at 02:06 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #509
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    My Doombringer is around there as well, though admittedly, I'm playing on Adventure rather than permadeath. I recalled the prides being pretty tough, so I went back to the west to take care of the backup bosses right now.
    I'm on Adventurer mode as well, but I'd already lost all my lives, mostly to vampire bosses in Last Hope Graveyard and in Daikara, which I always struggle a bit on. This character took down whatsisface who sends the elementals to attack Derth really easily, though--I was rather surprised when the quest done note came up when I thought I was halfway through the battle!

    TBH, my final death was down to a misplay--I noticed I was low on life and hit Regenerate, even though I think I had a better instant Heal available. If I'd hit the heal I would have gained enough life to tank the cryomancer's next hit. Allowing myself to drop as low as 180 life in the first place was clearly a misplay in itself, though.

    Next character is a Ghoul Berserker, and I have four new character classes to try out after that, so I suspect it'll be a while before I get as far as the Far East again. This time I'll follow the advice above and ignore the Prides until I'm a bit higher level.

  30. - Top - End - #510
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Has anyone actually made use of the storage in the Sher'Tul Fortress to "pay forward" some nice gear to a future character?
    Once or twice. If I have amazing gear that's completely useless for a current character (usually a bow, mindstar, or something) I might put it there.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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