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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Speaking of on your phone, ages ago when I was in high school, where was a minimalist hack of Rogue available on Ti-92 calculators. I spent so many boring lessons on that.
    Huh. I wish my school didn't use the boring FX-82MS type and allowed a programmable one instead back then. Our way of making do was just rolling competing ran(20)s ad infinitum.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    FTL is utterly brilliant. Which mods did you enjoy ... actually, strike that: If you had to chose on mod (to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them), which one would it be?
    Probably Captain's Edition, it adds so many more weapons and events to choose from. I like it alongside any of the 'infinite' mods that let you keep going as long as you like.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfThyme View Post
    I like playing a lot of cards, so Time Eater tends to screw me over fairly readily. If I can beat Time Eater as the first boss on A20, then the others are usually fairly trivial. If I get D&D or Awakened One, then I have to hope to not get Time Eater.
    Oh yeah, I fall into that trap a lot too. It sucks because those are my favorite decks as well, but they're just too dependent on not fighting that particular boss to not get screwed. It seems like every time I indulge myself and build that kind of deck I get that boss.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I highly recommend Caves of Qud. It's inspired by Gamma World, taking place in a far future after the fall of an advanced civilization, a world steeped in radiation, sentient plants, monastic orders made up of gun turrets, and lots and lots of salt. The combination of dungeon crawling and open-world exploration is excellent in my opinion, character building and development is full of weird and interesting possibilities because of some of the weirder mutations. There are also weekly updates, so there's some technical instability in that your save files will occasionally get invalidated by an update, but individual games usually don't last long so this may not be an obstacle.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    Probably Captain's Edition, it adds so many more weapons and events to choose from. I like it alongside any of the 'infinite' mods that let you keep going as long as you like.
    As I thought. I'll get that eventually. I reach a certain fatigue with FTL. It's one of my favourite games ever, but I've only won three times. So I suppose my lack of ability to git gud at it annoys me, because I've played it so much. It's less annoying when I'm not really making an effort. Like, Stellaris. I'm awful at it, but I don't really care or want to improve.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I'm not actually a big fan of this genre as a whole, because the mechanics are generally based too much on random chance and forcing you to play the game multiple times to get through. Doesn't matter how much skill and knowledge of the game you have, it's possible for sheer bad luck to kill you or render it unlikely you can defeat the game. I have played NetHack, ADOM, Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL, and enjoyed them for a little while, but the frustration usually overwhelms the fun after a time.
    I don't know much about Nethack or Dungeons of Dredmor, but you're lumping in ADOM and FTL with them, and those games I do know. I can tell you that they can be won consistently by a skilled enough player. Even on FTL hard difficulty win streaks as high as 80 have been recorded, and skilled players seem to agree that a consistent winrate with perfect play should be somewhere between 93-99 %. That's on Hard, the difficulty designed to challenge experienced players. On Normal difficulty, the winrate is basically 100%.

    In ADOM, the only obstacle to winning is dying in the early game - so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%. The game allows you to prepare for dangerous locations for as long as you need to.

    What commonly happens - even with well-designed roguelikes - is that players reach a certain level of experience and game understanding, find themselves regularly failing and only doing well with RNG assistance, and come to the conclusion that RNG assistance is required for beating the game - because that's what's anecdotally true to them. What's actually happening is that they are still making mistakes - sometimes a lot of them - but simply aren't aware of their mistakes. In ADOM, it's very easy to consistently do unnecessarily dangerous things and be entirely unaware of how dangerous they are. In FTL, your resources are strictly limited, which can result in even tiny mistakes - inefficiencies - snowballing into larger disadvantages.

    There is a huge mental component to roguelike playing skill. As soon as you start blaming the RNG for your loss, you've essentially gated yourself off from getting better at the game.

    This is not to say that there aren't roguelikes (or games advertised as roguelikes) that are poorly designed and require you to get lucky in order to beat them. It's just that ADOM and FTL very definitely don't belong on that list.
    Last edited by Silfir; 2018-12-22 at 11:18 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    In ADOM, the only obstacle to winning is dying in the early game - so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%.
    So long as it requires perfect play, it ceases to be a game, and becomes instead something else. A riddle, or a job.

    Age of Decadence is an example. You have to play the game to complete a build. If your build isn't planned out from the start, if you ever chose a skill out of curiosity, or at random, or because you met a specific skill challenge you want to beat - you will be unable to beat the game. You can complete it, sure, but not win.

    So in ADOM, I've beat the pyramid, and passed the dwarf caves, but I can't get any further than that - because the game demands an investment from me that I'm unwilling to pay.

    I've beat plenty of games - but only if they're slightly more flexible in their demands.

    Age of Decadence is an outstanding game, btw. Maybe .. not really roguelike? But really good.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    So long as it requires perfect play, it ceases to be a game, and becomes instead something else. A riddle, or a job.

    So in ADOM, I've beat the pyramid, and passed the dwarf caves, but I can't get any further than that - because the game demands an investment from me that I'm unwilling to pay.
    What are you talking about? ADOM doesn't require perfect play. Not even remotely. It's not based on limited resources. All you need to do to win is not make a mistake that kills you. Which is difficult, no question - but probably not nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%.

    What are you talking about? ADOM doesn't require perfect play.
    There's a slight contradiction in your statements here...

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    There's a slight contradiction in your statements here...
    Yeah, I messed up in my first post. I was just continuing on from writing about FTL, where perfect play, or nigh-perfect play, is important, since it's based on limited resources. In ADOM, "perfect play" just means "if you don't make a mistake with deadly consequences". Since it doesn't restrict you from replacing resources lost due to inefficient play, you can always win a game of ADOM as long as you aren't dead, or stuck in a situation in which you will inevitably die.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Yeah, I messed up in my first post. I was just continuing on from writing about FTL, where perfect play, or nigh-perfect play, is important, since it's based on limited resources. In ADOM, "perfect play" just means "if you don't make a mistake with deadly consequences". Since it doesn't restrict you from replacing resources lost due to inefficient play, you can always win a game of ADOM as long as you aren't dead, or stuck in a situation in which you will inevitably die.
    There are no levels in FTL. Your quote is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%
    But yes, you're right, if you don't die in a roguelike, you can win. That .. pretty much goes without saying.

    I think I get you, anyways: In FTL, you sometimes simply don't have a chance. You never got the right events, or stuff, or whatever - simply due to RNG. And that's at least somewhat different in ADOM: In ADOM, you can always .. well, retreat doesn't really cover it, but - most situations are recoverable, unless you over-extended. But the game still demands enormous amounts of meta-knowledge if you're to prevent over-extending.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    But yes, you're right, if you don't die in a roguelike, you can win. That .. pretty much goes without saying.
    He doesn't mean "to win, don't die" in a blanket statement that says "lol just git gud", he means that there's always 16 ways to deal with an Ice Vortex spawning next to you in a tight corridor and most players die with 14 of them in their inventory because they don't bother identifying their items or try "saving their resources for later" at every turn, THEN blame the RNG. Silfir means that you shouldn't let shadows hit you endlessly in Griff's cemetery to drain your St until you can't lift any food cutting your life short or at least really, really annoying and hard to deal with. Entirely avoidable mistakes that players still make when there usually is a wealth of options to get out of their predicament, and it's not some sort of an obscure, Sierra-esque puzzle that if you fail to do at level 10, you get destroyed at level 30.

    And even if you do any of those stupid things there's always a chance something bails you out. ADOM really is pretty fair all things considered, and I'm not a consistent winner. Silfir is absolutely correct that a good player can produce victories out of their ass while mashing Random race/class. Avatars / Chaos Gods might be more difficult, but ADOM, for the daunting amount of stuff it requires you to learn, is a consistent game.

    Two of my most promising YASDs were both Dwarven Priests, one of whom died because my brother's jackass friend walked in and pulled the plug on the computer back when the game didn't autobackup, and the other one because I ended up getting cocky and ended up unable to maneuver myself out of endless teleportitis corruption that is entirely managable or even beneficial when I was already level 26, ready to go ToEF, and should have plenty of means of teleport control beforehand.

    Around the time after ToEF, when you're performing "the final dive" (basically the endgame), there's surprisingly few things that will actually outright kill you, and you get the casino to abuse for pretty much infinite rewards.

    I often scream expletives at my ADOM screen, but I'm a loud and impulsive person by admission and now the screaming became more of a toned down complaining into a nearby pillow in case something really frustrating happens. There's enough material out there to show that past the initial learning curve, ADOM really doesn't force perfect play. I guarantee you half the characters who ascended through the Chaos Gate out there have pushed down a direction arrow through a vault when feeling lazy, whether they were dwarven barbarians or human thieves.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2018-12-22 at 04:31 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    He doesn't mean "to win, don't die"
    Isn't that what I said in the next sentence? I'm pretty sure it is.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Yeah, I think Kaptin Keen got the gist of it. Avoiding death in ADOM to a large degree comes from experience - meta-knowledge, if you want to call it that. Part of it is that there are tons of non-obvious ways to deal with challenges using different systems, and ways to optimize your play. The other is knowing roughly how dangerous the creatures you encounter are. Aside from system mastery and meta-knowledge, you need the mental sharpness and endurance - and to some degree, straight up paranoia - to make few mistakes, and only mistakes in ways that you can recover from.

    An example of that for me is the spell "Strength of Atlas", which expands your carrying capacity. As a fairly high level spellcaster, you can have it pretty much permanently active and pick up and carry pretty much anything you want. In the lategame, that means ridiculous amounts of wands, scrolls, potions, in addition to a variety of magic items, stacks upon stacks of ammunitions and missile weapons. But - if the duration of Strength of Atlas runs out and you don't remember to re-cast the spell in time, your carrying capacity will snap back to whatever it should be based on your strength, and your character can get crushed by the weight of their own inventory outright. I'm paranoid - and that means I never use Strength of Atlas to carry my stuff for any extended length of time. I just periodically get rid of stuff I don't need instead. This is more difficult, more annoying - but at least as far as I'm concerned it makes me less likely to die to my own stupidity.

    Your worst enemy in a roguelike is yourself.

    Anyway, ADOM's skill ceiling is just monstrous. It's very much like chess in that regard - opening theory, middlegame and endgame strategy, knowledge of tactical patterns, and so on. I can't fault anyone for preferring to climb other mountains.

    It was important to me simply to point out that both ADOM and FTL are only marginally dependant on luck, which is demonstrated by how consistently they can be won by truly skilled players.



    With that being said, I was a little confused about Kaptin Keen's "There are no levels in FTL" comment, but I think I know what he's getting at. I know FTL doesn't have character levels, I was talking about ADOM in the sentence he quoted - I used the term "perfect play" in that sentence differently than I used it in the preceding paragraph, and that's entirely my mistake.

    To clarify: "Perfect play" in FTL means generally taking the most efficient, optimal choice. "Perfect play" in ADOM is simply impossible because it involves vastly more choices - and more complex choices - over a much longer playtime, so what I think of when I try to use the term in reference to ADOM is "play devoid of critical mistakes".
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    As a huge fan of FTL who has all but given up on my goal of unlocking all ships I have to say it's less RNG until you get to the last boss. I've gotten good enough to be able to survive until the final boss no matter what the RNG gives me, but I don't always end up with a viable ship to combat the endboss due to certain items not dropping. I'm not a top tier player but I've put the time in and it's still frustrating to get to the boss and die horribly due to lack of viable options.

    Roguelikes in general reward systems mastery over luck, but they would be so much less interesting to me without the luck factor. Some games (turn based strategy) I feel do best with no RNG but for myself it's part of the "fun" (DF Style) of the Roguelike genre. Not everyone will enjoy this and that's ok.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Ok! Ok ok ... stop everything!

    If I can download the graphical version (non-ascii) for free - what am I paying for, if I go to Steam and buy it there?

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Which game are you talking about?

    If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.
    And a much faster update cycle ... IIRC, the free version is 3.0.6 (release 88) while the Steam version is 3.3.2 (release 100)

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    And a much faster update cycle ... IIRC, the free version is 3.0.6 (release 88) while the Steam version is 3.3.2 (release 100)
    1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter?

    no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying
    Last edited by Winthur; 2018-12-24 at 07:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter?

    no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying
    Hold the phone, they removed Treasure Hunter?

    Try playing orc barbarians I suppose!
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Hold the phone, they removed Treasure Hunter?
    ...Huh. You know, I was told they nerfed it. They apparently didn't, now that I checked it, but I've been going down the Quick / PV talents ever since I didn't doublecheck it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Try playing orc barbarians I suppose!
    But dwarves have longer lifespans and nicer prices at Waldenbrook! I'd think Orc would be best if I was constantly dying pre-13, but I'm mostly just making insane mistakes around the mid-game, screwing up TotHK / AF / risking DH / over-extending. I only recently started playing again and the lack of all of those abusable mechanics feels like it popped me out of the rhythm.

    The cry for help was more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I'm definitely very dumb.
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Big fan of Dwarf Fortress. The more traditionally roguelike mode of DF is adventure mode, but fort mode is still roguelike enough to count.

    I found a mobile version of Nethack that's on Android. It works just about as well as you could expect, being a keyboard oriented game on a keyboard-less platform.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Honorable mention because it's not a classic rogue-like, but Subnautica hardcore mode is the most terrifying game in existence.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    ...Huh. You know, I was told they nerfed it. They apparently didn't, now that I checked it, but I've been going down the Quick / PV talents ever since I didn't doublecheck it.

    But dwarves have longer lifespans and nicer prices at Waldenbrook! I'd think Orc would be best if I was constantly dying pre-13, but I'm mostly just making insane mistakes around the mid-game, screwing up TotHK / AF / risking DH / over-extending. I only recently started playing again and the lack of all of those abusable mechanics feels like it popped me out of the rhythm.

    The cry for help was more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I'm definitely very dumb.
    My preference is for orcs on barbarians because of Find Weakness. (Dark elves get it too, but don't have the godly strength toughness.) Barbarian is a potent chassis even without support, so there's something to be said for choosing a long-lived race to avoid death by spooks. Maybe not elves though.

    I'll freely admit the bulk of my playing time was spent in the 1.1.1 days, though from what I've seen the new midgame kind of makes up for the nerfs with the all new randomly placed dungeons. You may have to grind a little more (since you'll want potential strength/toughness potions and the like), but since you get to explore all-new dungeons doing so, it doesn't really feel like a chore. I honestly prefer doing that over hardcore farming herbs for forty minutes.

    I don't doubt that you simply have to spend longer with a lower toughness now than you used to, which has shrunk the margin of error for naturally low toughness characters. I suppose there's nothing to say but: hang in there!

    One of these days I really ought to revive my youtube channel and try my hand at a third playthrough.
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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter?

    no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying
    Wait, they removed morgia root?

    Also, wizards and clerics for the win. Not trading blows with creatures is an enormous bonus, and the low-level survival can be pretty easy if you just pick the safer dungeons.

    I also hope they didn't fix my preferred "hax", which is the Dwarven Halls familiar.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Which game are you talking about?

    If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.
    Uh, yes - ADOM. I think that was originally in the post, then I decided to phrase it differently, and .. well you can see how that went =)

    But I can play ADOM with graphics, yay! I've already died twice, trying out necromancy. Which seems like ... a bad idea. Generally speaking.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Wait, they removed morgia root?
    No, but herb training have been constricted quite a bit (can no longer increase potentials), leaving you much less able to boost to silly levels

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    No, but herb training have been constricted quite a bit (can no longer increase potentials), leaving you much less able to boost to silly levels
    Eh, kinda makes sense.

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    I have now failed 25 times in ADOM. Frankly it might have been better if I never found out I could get the graphics version for free.

    A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

    Then I made a troll beastfighter, and he trounced everything. Just mercilessly slaughtered everything he encountered, essentially without ever really taking any damage. He was a terror to behold. Then, in the first room after the Dwarf Town, he met a greater mimic. I hadn't taken damage for such a long time, I simply wasn't paying attention. Then I died =D

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    Default Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).
    Yeah you picked an elf race that pretty much deliberately exists to be a curiosity for veterans. The various restrictions it places on you are definitely not helpful for survival.

    Roll Gray Elves (Neutral Elves, solid spellcasters and archers; it's generally really good to start as N for some fringe benefits), Dwarves (sturdy, better PV, pretty much guaranteed good starting armor) or Drakelings (solid stat spread and Acid Spit melts everything in its path - literally). You already know Trolls stomp the early game, but they also suffer from hunger issues, low Le and slow levelling. Orcs are a more moderate version of a hulking green brute, so they work decently as well. Good beginner classes are Archers, Priests (for easy BUC and decent spellcasting), Barbarians, Paladins and maybe actually Wizards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

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