Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Sian]

I have now failed 25 times in ADOM. Frankly it might have been better if I never found out I could get the graphics version for free.

A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

Then I made a troll beastfighter, and he trounced everything. Just mercilessly slaughtered everything he encountered, essentially without ever really taking any damage. He was a terror to behold. Then, in the first room after the Dwarf Town, he met a greater mimic. I hadn't taken damage for such a long time, I simply wasn't paying attention. Then I died =D

Mist Elf is the race for those feeling the game is to easy, as they, by quite the distance, have among the lowest Toughness scores, and an additional penalty on top of this (your lucky if you have 40 HP by level 10), while having a fairly restricted item availability due to their inability to handle Iron items, but for all that a sneeze can kill them well into the mid-game, they're all but immune to ageing penalties, and have some of the most competent spellcasting out of the box.

Ratlings are 'just' beefy elves without their flair for casting (I know, it's more complex than that, but at your point in experience it aren't all that relevant). They're strong at dex-based classes (Archers, thieves and duellists, specially wielding whips), and slightly harder to get instagibbed in the early game due to their higher Toughness, but other than that they don't really have any strong suits, but don't have any particularly weak ones either

Troll Beastfighter is kinda an odd one, since for all their superficial fit, pulls in different directions ... Trolls are strong and tough, but have an abyssal xp penalty (or rather, need more xp for each level, but pretty much the same), while Beastfighters (and Monks) might well be the classes that gain the most from getting as many levels under their belts as possible, as fast as possible, since their damage output critically depends on it, and specially for Beastfighters, handle like a wet noodle, if you even consider wielding anything

[Silfir]

Both priests and wizards are classes with excellent late game potential. They're tricky to play, because there are only a couple of monsters that they can reliably win against in melee at the early levels, unless you pick up some armor, or play a race that buffs them up a bit.

I'd definitely move away from mist elves for the time being; having so few hitpoints is a big downside when you're inevitably going to make beginner mistakes. As far as I'm aware ratlings don't get a lot of Mana, which is a bit of a worry if you're also stuck with leather armor. My vote is for dwarves or orcs. They don't get a ton of Mana either, but at least they wear chain mail. (Orcs also get an everburning torch, which can be a decent melee weapon, as long as you stop dual-wielding right away - even for classes that get Two-Weapon Combat it's a trap, without the skill it's suicidal).

[Sian]

For what it's worth, I have 4 wins under my belt in ADOM, Orc Paladin, Orc Priest, Gnome Weaponsmith and Ratling Dualist (precrowned with Black Whip, before its nerf)

[Kaptin Keen]

Troll Beastfighter is kinda an odd one, since for all their superficial fit, pulls in different directions ...

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

The mist elves were mostly because I saw they start with necromancy. So I tried some necromancers, and ... well, that's just bad. Then I tried some wizards, and that worked better, but ... yea, they're squishy.

Then I went with various iterations of a ratling with a bow, but archers seem to be throwing rocks almost all the time. So now I'm back to melee, in the current case a human paladin. And again, without anything to improve it, melee does too little damage. I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

[Bucky]

From what I recall of ADOM - I haven't played it in years - I'd describe it as "abusive". It doles out random, harsh punishments for a variety of common and necessary activities. It has a pile of ways to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot. It's sometimes outright deceptive about what constitutes a sufficient precaution.

But it also gives the player a bunch of ways to abuse the game back. Slowly boost a stat up to insane levels, swapping stats around and doing it again, generating huge amounts of treasure to sift through for the few items that matter. Secret recipes for OP stuff. Grinding in a hundred forms that I no longer have the patience for. Rendering important enemies helpless by knowing which effect to use.

It also has one of my all-time favorite roguelike items, the wand of door creation. A neat, well-designed and fair tactical option in a game designed for unfairness.

[Knaight]

This has been my genre for a while, though I tend to hit the lighter end of the spectrum, with a few notable exceptions. There's Spelunky, Nuclear Throne, and FTL on the more action game end, with ToME, ChessRogue, and Slay the Spire on the more turn based end. Various others filter in and out.

[Sian]

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

That's highly unlikely since the Creator have been very deliberate about not releasing the source code, but you could also just play the steam version, where there's the available variant of "reloadable games", and a range of other difficulty modifiers, including tuning monsters down (or up), drop rates down (or up), loading the dice or turning Hunger down (or off)

I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

unless you play something that is truely beastly in the early game, those ant's are a beef-gate that is to be dodged if you can get away with it ... in fact PC, might well be the second most difficult of the intended opening moves (after SMC and a direct dive through UC)

[Rynjin]

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

The classic way to "cheat" a Roguelike is just to back up your save in a different folder. Is that not possible with ADOM?

[Cespenar]

While there are many ways to abuse stuff in ADOM, I think the real survival comes from something else entirely: learning which paths/monsters/etc. are risky and avoiding them. It's a numbers game, really.

As an example, there are probably 6+ "starter" locations you could go with any new character. The small cave has that nifty blanket, there is the puppy quest, the bandit quest with 3000-something gp award, the outlaw town, etc. I just go to the Village Dungeon. Because it's easy and you are trying to survive while leveling up. Then? Leg it to the caverns of chaos, because it's easy and you need to go there anyway.

Same with monsters. When you get to know the monsters, there are quite a few that I retreat as soon as I see one about 5-6 squares away. Playing a melee beast, and I see (a very simple example) a claw bug looking thing in the distance? I don't risk it, just put any kind of stuff in your ranged slot and throw at it from afar. Or lure it to some traps. Playing a caster? Use any empty moment to regain mana. Check every door for traps, open every door diagonally, know which corpses to eat, etc.

Also, never press and hold a direction button. That's just death. There's a smart move button just for that (it was "w" some time ago).

[Winthur]

As an example, there are probably 6+ "starter" locations you could go with any new character. The small cave has that nifty blanket, there is the puppy quest, the bandit quest with 3000-something gp award, the outlaw town, etc. I just go to the Village Dungeon. Because it's easy and you are trying to survive while leveling up. Then? Leg it to the caverns of chaos, because it's easy and you need to go there anyway.

What helps is that you can mix and match starting locations. Most people first go SMC to generate a low level dungeon (once you leave, monsters stay generated as they were until you kill one) and then instantly leave, and therefore leave the possibility of UC-diving for later levels. Then you can go ID1-2 a few times to check your luck with book drops if you're a low-level spellcaster, then you can proceed to do either the Village Dungeon or the Druid Dungeon, and maybe while you're wandering all the time you just might get Kranach. And even if cute dog dies, a high level PC wandering into PC:6 has a decent chance of generating a surge of power in the guaranteed vault.

Another "starter" location worth considering is that spellcaster can cheese like 13-14 levels by simply farming claw bugs in Bug Temple once that's unlocked, although that's risky. But your level 1 wizard probably doesn't care about his life much anyway.

[Silfir]

The number 1 obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM is not the lack of a savegame feature. It's that players have to develop a submissive attitude to the game's uncompromising difficulty - you can never blame the game, because if you do, you stop trying to look for the faults in your own play.

Same with monsters. When you get to know the monsters, there are quite a few that I retreat as soon as I see one about 5-6 squares away. Playing a melee beast, and I see (a very simple example) a claw bug looking thing in the distance? I don't risk it, just put any kind of stuff in your ranged slot and throw at it from afar.

Or better yet - use your level 4 Slings weapon skill which you've already trained up in anticipation of situations like this.

All characters can learn to use missile weapons or thrown weapons, and all of them should. Something like 90% or more of the creatures you encounter don't have ranged attacks at all. It's free damage.

If you take full advantage of everything the game throws at you for free, you don't even have to bother with any of the extreme grinding that's possible to do. Just exploring all the dungeons once is enough. Probably more than enough. (Especially now that they've added a bunch of additional dungeons.)

So now I'm back to melee, in the current case a human paladin. And again, without anything to improve it, melee does too little damage. I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

Have you tried hitting F1-F7 for tactics options? If you struggle to deal enough damage to get past a high-PV creature, but are so impervious to damage that you can just tank monsters while you eat, it's the perfect situation to switch to Berserk.

The most broken thing that beginners fail to take advantage of might be the fact that you get Tactics bonuses on to-hit and damage from aggressive settings even if you use ranged weapons and can't even be hit back. (You can also switch to Coward mode on a per-turn basis, to drink potions or use First Aid and such.)

[Winthur]

submissive attitude

I pictured a dwarf saying "daddy please not too hard" before sipping each pool in Darkforge.

[Kaptin Keen]

The classic way to "cheat" a Roguelike is just to back up your save in a different folder. Is that not possible with ADOM?

Oh absolutely. I want an autosave because I forget to back up my save file, not because I don't know how to make one. It's the same with the reasons I die: Generally, I forget to be careful because I'm doing so well.

Have you tried hitting F1-F7 for tactics options?

Yes yes! I'm not a beginner, I've sacrificed literally dozens of characters on the ADOM altar. No, the real trouble is simply that I don't pay enough attention ... well, that and that I've only been past Dwarf Town twice, so I have barely any knowledge of what to expect there. Trees and ghosts ended the two tries I have had.

[Sian]

In which case i feel it might be a bit rich to blame the self-admitted difficult game (that gives you options to be easier if you want to) for not holding your hand and requesting triplicate signatures that you’re sure you want to do what you’re about to do

[Kaptin Keen]

In which case i feel it might be a bit rich to blame the self-admitted difficult game (that gives you options to be easier if you want to) for not holding your hand and requesting triplicate signatures that you’re sure you want to do what you’re about to do

How charming. Can you point out to me where I did that?

[Silfir]

How charming. Can you point out to me where I did that?

Blanket statements such as "melee does too little damage" can be interpreted unfavorably to mean that, I'd assume. I'll admit that "human paladin" is not high up on my list of characters I play. What do they start with, a long sword? I could imagine that if you roll fairly low strength and are only armed with a basic long sword you need quite a bit of buffing up before you can do a lot of damage to giant ant warriors. They are intended to be a roadblock - after all, saving the tiny girl's puppy was conceptualized as a challenging feat to accomplish.

I just tried it - human paladins start with 14 Strength and, indeed, a basic longsword. I would refrain from considering human paladins the yardstick by which to measure the strength of melee classes in general, when you can roll up orcish barbarians instead. The true strength of paladins as a starting class is the combination of high armor (8 PV minimum for human paladins) and the Healing skill.

[DataNinja]

I've been playing the heck out of FTL recently, ever since discovering access came with my gifted month of Nitro. Admittedly, I've still been playing on Easy, mostly because I want to unlock all the ships I can before my month runs out, but it's been fun. Though, all the extra Advanced Edition stuff nearly overwhelmed me the first time I tried playing with the Lanius ship, geez.

It definitely feels well balanced, although there are certainly events that you can run into (generally early on) that can end up hard-countering the build that you've been getting (my most recent example of that was when using the Rock A, running into an Engi event in the 2nd sector that locked my engines and shields, while it had two defense drones. Hadn't found any non-missile weapons yet, so I couldn't touch the thing, and it was just able to tear me apart before I could jump out. Ouch).

The nice thing, though, is that the later you get (as long as you know what you're doing), the more likely it is that it's going to be your own mistakes that kill you. I think that's definitely a design that helps reduce frustration. The randomness is still there, but if the randomness itself causes your death, you'll probably not have gotten very far.

[Kaptin Keen]

"melee does too little damage"

I'm pretty sure I also never said that!

I believe I said:

A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

Which is not ... a blanket statement. It's a pretty specific statement on the priests and mages I've played.

And so the search goes on. When did I ever blame the game's self-admitted difficulty for not holding my hand. And I'd honestly like for Sian to answer for himself. No one else suddenly exploded for absolutely no reason.

[Kaptin Keen]

So I've decided I'm going to go through SMC at level 1. This is not turning out well for me. I believe another 6 or 7 characters have met their end in there thus far. I've found the exit twice - but decided to look around just a wee bit longer for the blanket. I think I can safely say, on results based analysis, that this is a bad idea. But I want the blanket, and I want to HMV shop.

I'm going through SMC, so help me Istaria! Osmond VIII, coming up.

[Anteros]

The number 1 obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM is not the lack of a savegame feature. It's that players have to develop a submissive attitude to the game's uncompromising difficulty - you can never blame the game, because if you do, you stop trying to look for the faults in your own play.

More realistically, the biggest obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM or other similar games is a willingness to beat your head against the wall until you learn all of the obscure mechanics that they don't explain, and to experience all of the "gotcha" moments where you couldn't have possibly predicted a situation so you'll know what to do the next time.

I enjoy them, and have played several of them to completion, but they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

[Cespenar]

So I've decided I'm going to go through SMC at level 1. This is not turning out well for me. I believe another 6 or 7 characters have met their end in there thus far. I've found the exit twice - but decided to look around just a wee bit longer for the blanket. I think I can safely say, on results based analysis, that this is a bad idea. But I want the blanket, and I want to HMV shop.

I'm going through SMC, so help me Istaria! Osmond VIII, coming up.

The blanket is really, really overrated. Not to mention that you could probably get a character into Dwarftown easily in all that time combined.

[Kaptin Keen]

The blanket is really, really overrated. Not to mention that you could probably get a character into Dwarftown easily in all that time combined.

Agreed - absolutely. But see, I'm stubborn. And while the blanket is just a ... knick-knack, the HMV shop is frankly a little awesome. Still not indispencable, but pretty damn good. Also, the option, at least, for the ultra ending.

[Silfir]

More realistically, the biggest obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM or other similar games is a willingness to beat your head against the wall until you learn all of the obscure mechanics that they don't explain, and to experience all of the "gotcha" moments where you couldn't have possibly predicted a situation so you'll know what to do the next time.

I enjoy them, and have played several of them to completion, but they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

Pattern recognition, experience, a good memory and persistence are skills, though. Those are exactly what's required to become a good chess player, for example.

Not sure where intelligence enters into it. Intelligent players are not necessarily good at ADOM, and being good at ADOM doesn't prove you're intelligent. Who ever claimed otherwise? (Certainly not chess players. Bobby Fischer was one of the best to ever play the game and a tremendous idiot in many ways. There is more than one type of intelligence.)

[Anteros]

Pattern recognition, experience, a good memory and persistence are skills, though. Those are exactly what's required to become a good chess player, for example.

Not sure where intelligence enters into it. Intelligent players are not necessarily good at ADOM, and being good at ADOM doesn't prove you're intelligent. Who ever claimed otherwise? (Certainly not chess players. Bobby Fischer was one of the best to ever play the game and a tremendous idiot in many ways. There is more than one type of intelligence.)

Chess is a bad example. While those things are all important in chess, the difference is that the rules of a chess game are clear from the start. The black player isn't going to suddenly state something like "haha, you stepped on the B3 square on the 23rd turn! You lose!" or "Now all my pawns can move sideways because you didn't shuffle your rook and your queen!" Or "Oh, you wanted to check-mate my King? It's a shame you didn't have the Trident of the Red Rooster equipped! You lose!" It's goofy.

While memory and game knowledge are important to master the game, they aren't required to play in the first place. It's theoretically possible for someone to play chess at a high level immediately after learning the rules. The game doesn't intentionally obscure vital information to artificially inflate its difficulty, then turn around to tout itself as challenging.
ADOM and Nethack are like chess, if the opponent could randomly introduce new pieces or reset the board whenever they want and claim victory.

[Rynjin]

Since everyone's talking about it so much (and it's been on my periphery for years), I picked up the free version of ADOM.

So far I've died twice fighting the minotaur in the first cave. Once because my Orc Beastfighter was not as tough as I thought he was, and once because my Drakeling Bard zapped herself with a wand, because apparently right-click does not cancel shots like most games.

Will report further progress.

[Silfir]

It's theoretically possible for someone to play chess at a high level immediately after learning the rules.

I suppose we might have different conceptions of what "at a high level" actually entails, but from where I'm standing this is a ludicrous statement. You probably have a better shot of beating ADOM after reading the manual than you have at beating even an intermediate chess player without a primer in opening principles, midgame strategy and some tactical and checkmating patterns. In both cases the odds are basically nil; you're supposed to keep learning as you make mistakes, lose, and try again.



I'm not sure what you're getting at anyway - of course there are differences between ADOM and chess with respect to complete vs. incomplete information (though like chess, an ADOM "game piece" will always have the same abilities every time); what I'm saying is the games require the same skills. (If anything, ADOM requires more skills, because handling incomplete information is a skill in and of itself.)

Anyway, like most disagreements this one has to do with inadequately defined terms. If you want to make a meaningful contribution, have a look at this statement you made:

they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

Tell me what you mean by "skill", if game knowledge and pattern recognition don't count for whatever reason. Because as I understand this statement, at least for now, it seems to suggest chess doesn't require skill, which I have to assume is not your intent.

[Rynjin]

Well, Hakrash the Male Drakeling Fighter (I've just been mashing Fate for character gen) survived long enough to get a name at least. Getting a better feel for the game, made it to level 6. Died of starvation in the midst of fighting about a dozen bandits...was down to the last 3 when I keeled over.

[Kaptin Keen]

Well, Hakrash the Male Drakeling Fighter (I've just been mashing Fate for character gen) survived long enough to get a name at least. Getting a better feel for the game, made it to level 6. Died of starvation in the midst of fighting about a dozen bandits...was down to the last 3 when I keeled over.

I just did that too - I couldn't get out of combat, dammit! =)

I mean I could have hit f7 and tried to grab a snack while in combat - but I lost track of just how hungry I was. Amateur mistake =)

[Rynjin]

I just did that too - I couldn't get out of combat, dammit! =)

I mean I could have hit f7 and tried to grab a snack while in combat - but I lost track of just how hungry I was. Amateur mistake =)

I ate 2 rations during the combat; it was just a miss-fiesta on both sides and took forever.

[Cespenar]

Regarding the game's secrets, I believe that after a liberal number of hard-earned, "blind" deaths, a peek or three at the game's FAQ would widen one's game experience quite a bit, and help one enjoy it even more.