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2019-01-01, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
I know quite a few of the 'secrets' - but I never get far enough to find any of them. Maybe it's because I never, ever grind anything. The only type of character I ever feel reaches a point of actual strength is troll melee fighters, and unsurprisingly, they tend to meet their fate in the early midgame =)
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2019-01-01, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Well, I guess the only thing you might really want to grind is piety for (pre)crowning. Which you technically don't even have to do to beat the whole game, given that the Ultimate endings force you into so many alignment swaps that it's pretty much impossible to crown until the end game. They kinda nerfed grinding otherwise, as I mentioned.
I'd take a step back from Trolls to the more moderate races like Drakes, Orcs and Dwarves if you want to get into mid-game. Trolls definitely can beat the game (though it's not recommended to attempt an ultimate ending with them), but I think the main appeal of picking a Fighter is good starting gear and levelling up skills like Athletics, Dodge and Find Weakness somewhat fast, so I wouldn't actually skimp out on Learning and endure the excruciatingly slow trollish levelling speed.
If you want to play a cheatmode troll, however, roll a troll healer. Your starting gear sorta sucks, but it doesn't matter because you start with 30+ Strength and 25+ Toughness. Barring initial DV/PV issues, your self-healing is insane.
For bonus points, you can start with Candle and take the Healthy talent line.
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2019-01-01, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
You did? I didn't notice =(
I don't really play trolls. I know they will get part of the way easily, but I also know they become dreadfully hard (for me at least) later on.
I really want to make something that has a tool for every challenge. That's the problem with trolls - they have one tool for all challenges, brute physical force to the face. I want enough healing to sustain myself, and enough damage (physical or magical) to kill stuff. I do best with priests, it seems, but their lack of damage output ends up killing me.
The solution would be to kill Keethrax, and get Frostbolt - but I can't kill him with a priest, because they deal no damage.
So ... now I've rolled another priest. Because I'm stubborn =)
Oh, btw. The swordsman. Is he worth trying to keep alive?Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-01-01 at 08:01 AM.
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2019-01-01, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Priests are basically Wizards with more emphasis on healing and piety-based mechanics and some spells having different names. Rain of Sorrow is basically Acid Ball with a different serial number.
I absolutely never had a problem with priest levelling, and consider them one of the most newb-friendly classes in terms of giving you midgame chances.
Spellbooks drop heavily for them, they have easy BUC identification, likely a ton of holy water from the start (I recall usually starting with 4 bottles of regular water and 1 holy water and being able to dip them together).
I ended up having solid melee with a regular spear+shield combo (best bang for your buck in terms of DV), whatever ranged weapon I could find, and, ofc, spells. I could even run PC sometimes.
Dwarven priests also start well-armored and regardless of what you do, you can go for the Tough Skin talent line to ensure you're not gonna die easily.
Also roll more Drakelings, mang, Acid Spit is just ridiculous.
Frankly you could go with Drakeling Monks. Good stats across the board, moderate spellcasting ability and bookdrops (akin to a Paladin, I believe?), hunger issues pretty much non-existent (which synergizes well with Acid Spit spam) and your only problem is that you can't get burdened/strained.
Who?
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2019-01-01, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
In all my many games - and this is god's honest truth - I've had one single damage spell book drop. I've had a few priests start with a damage spell, but I have only one single time ever seen a drop of a offensive spell. For a priest, that is. They drop all the time for other classes, non-casters too.
There's a swordsman in the secret goblin camp who swears loyalty to you, and tags along.
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2019-01-01, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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2019-01-01, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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2019-01-01, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Esslingen, Germany
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
I have only one single time ever seen a drop of a offensive spell. For a priest, that is. They drop all the time for other classes, non-casters too.
If you don't want to be hamstrung by spellbook drop luck, consider playing an elementalist.Last edited by Silfir; 2019-01-01 at 12:42 PM.
This signature is boring. The stuff I write might not be. Warning: Ponies.
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2019-01-01, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Nopes. And please don't make assumptions. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But we're talking possibly hundreds of games. I have 50 (!!) games on my high score list since re-installing a few days ago.
Let me know if you want a screenshot of that. I usually don't bother - but just say the word.
So let me say again: I know for an absolute certainty, that in 50 games (not all of which has been priests, obviously), a single - one - offensive spell tome has dropped.
In my previous games, before re-downloading with the graphics hokus-pokus, I believe one, single, offensive spell tome dropped. That's a grand total of .... Two! In what might actually be something like 200 games or more.
And that's not counting drops for mages, of course, since they clearly get lots. Just other classes. And I've seen a good few for classes with zero casting ability - like troll barbarians, for instance.
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2019-01-01, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Esslingen, Germany
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Is it possible you weren't trying to make a larger point and just venting about getting unlucky? If so I apologize and you have my commiserations.
This signature is boring. The stuff I write might not be. Warning: Ponies.
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2019-01-01, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Not even really venting - it's an observation. There are others like it. For instance, when I play humans, or hurthlings, or elves - there are basically no pools to be found, anywhere. When I play trolls or ratlings, they're common as muck. Altars seem weird too, though I can't see any sort of system to it: There are games when I've found none what so ever, and quite a few seem to have an alter in literally every dungeon. It feels like there's a reverse proportionality between what you need, and what you get. I've never found so many powerful weapons as when I play a monk, or a beastfighter - or a mage. Conversely, when I've played a paladin or fighter, I've had rather dull weapons.
None of these are absolutes, by any means. And among those observations, definitely there are statistical glitches that trick me, cases of faulty memory, bais and so on.
Apology not necessary. I felt like you were snapping at me, and I snapped back - I'm likely to 'respond in kind', which is terribly embarassing when I'm mistaken =)
Edit: Herbs - much more common when my guy doesn't have herbalism.Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2019-01-01 at 04:05 PM.
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2019-01-01, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
They nerfed stairhopping, which was a technique where you could keep farming books between ID1 and ID2 without spending an in-game turn, because ascending/descending stairs apparently doesn't count as a turn. So you could spam < and > without ever getting hungry and there'd be a chance that a book spawns instantly inside.
As far as I understand, the Danger Level at which spellbooks are most likely to spawn is 1-2, so low ID levels should still be good for finding books if you are hardpressed for those.
That said, all I can say is counter with my own anecdote that my Priests always get a lot of spells. How far do you get before dying?
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2019-01-01, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
As do mine. I can't tell you how many books of ... Darkness, Slow Poison, Cure Light Wounds, and so on, and so forth ... I've found. Just no offensive bang-bang.
That depends. But the pattern is simple enough: I reach a point at which my damage output is too low. Generally, physical damage. Characters with healing spells just don't cut it in melee - and casters eventually run out of mana, and then they die. And I have ranged skills trained on everyone obviously.
I've died at the last two levels of PC, died to Keethrax, died quite many times in SMC. Started CoC only twice, and reached Dwarf Town only on my troll beastfighter.
Oh, and I've died quite a few times at levels 1 or 2 or so, because of being too careless. Actually, a goblin rockthrower one-shot me in the Secret Camp once. Literally from max to zero with one stone. Bloody runt! =)
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2019-01-01, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Darkness is actually a pretty good spell to assist against some melee monsters because most monsters don't see in the darkness, giving you an advantage. An orcish priest takes this further, he will have a lot of innate strength and the ability to abuse Backstabbing when Darkness is on.
All of my casters are well-trained in melee because I actually spend a lot of time in melee, mostly so that I don't run out of spell charges and because trained Spear is a great source of DV, which helps survivability tremendously. It takes longer to train that, but in general I find that all of my characters are well-rounded combatants. I don't even have a particularly grindy playstyle, and I don't take special care to max out weapon marks in the early game (that you're firmly pretty much never out of), and my characters can all generally fight. Choice switches to Berserk / Very Aggressive for high burst damage in a "kill them before they kill you" fashion helps, as well as an occasional tension room full of something weak, like rats or orcs.
Yeah, that sounds like you're dying around level 11-12 (accounting the Troll's extremely slow levelling rate in the case of Dwarftown). That could explain why you feel like you don't ever see any books - you simply aren't around much to see them.
Maybe pick more Dark Elves and Orcs for boons like Find Weakness?
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2019-01-01, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Esslingen, Germany
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
That depends. But the pattern is simple enough: I reach a point at which my damage output is too low. Generally, physical damage. Characters with healing spells just don't cut it in melee - and casters eventually run out of mana, and then they die. And I have ranged skills trained on everyone obviously.
I've died at the last two levels of PC, died to Keethrax, died quite many times in SMC. Started CoC only twice, and reached Dwarf Town only on my troll beastfighter.
The fight against Keethrax is frequently delayed even by experienced players because it's quite simply a tough fight, and there's no time limit on it.
All that being said, just using the best weapons I come across tends to be enough for me whenever I play spellcasters. I worry about defenses, particularly PV, far more than I worry about damage.This signature is boring. The stuff I write might not be. Warning: Ponies.
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2019-01-01, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
That, too - I make it a point to try and equip any and all weapons with unusually low weight (usually weight not divisible by 10), and failing to find any, I just pick up crude spears, as orcish spears usually come with a hefty boost to damage for a one-hander and can be farmed. I have very weird luck when it comes to finding halberds made of precious metals in SMC, too.
Really, I play melee Wizard quite a lot. There is enough trash mobs on every low level floor to just "push the arrow" every so often.
In 1.1.1, when Strained training was great, you could pretty much always find my spellcasters on the frontline. I even had a wizard with Big Punch at one point.
Oh, another suggestion - if you're having a hard time surviving in melee, look into Gnomes and Hurthlings for the free starting talent and push for a free Heir gift if you have 3 starter talents. Hurthling / Gnomish Fighters (great PV boost that will pretty much never break), Barbarians (excellent weapon), Thieves (turns them from absolutely crap hold-on-for-my-deal life to actually managable), Assassins (you start with great Dagger weapon skill already AND you get an adamantium dagger), Weaponsmiths (I believe the game always bumps your strength really high up to ensure you never start the game Burdened/Strained, so here's a way to "cheat" some Strength and also get a nifty weapon) and pretty much all of those will be hard or impossible to lose to some unfortunate event. Also, Necromancer heir gift is fairly nuts, but it's even more nuts if you manage to get Heir on a Mist Elf Necro - but then you're stuck with a Mist Elf, so it probably cancels out.
There's also the Bard's super OP gift of seven league boots that you're pretty much guaranteed to get as either small race.
And yeah, don't rush Keethrax. He's not really worth it that early; might even generate DD:7 and then leave, then come later. Keethrax can shrug off bolts, suck away your stats, his attacks may cause mild corruption, every animal on DD:7 spawns hostile even if you're a Druid (sucks if you find a cat) and he actually is dangerous enough to simply kill you.
It's also not unlikely that you are simply meeting massive bumps in difficulty on your usual routes. Hacking orcs to death is fairly easy on any Berserking character, but then you might run into a dark elven priestess or a dark orc in the UD, or a moderately experienced swordsman obliterates you. Or you let yourself get bursted down by a claw bug. You're trying to take on Keethrax and he actually has lots of HP.
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2019-01-02, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Whelp - I'm back in Dwarf Town. Dark Elf Archer, this time. Though frankly, Slinger would be a better name for it, the only plentiful ammunition seems to be rocks. Thank you, Goblin Fort.
So I found a book. On my archer. Which is surprising enough, but then obviously, my Literacy is 46, +1d6, with a max of ... 47. Thanks game. I even ate a Dark Sage, because ... you never know, right. Didn't help.
So I'm in Dwarf Town, and I decide ... what the hell, no time like the present, let's look at that book. I sit down, I read, it explodes, and destroys 75% of my inventory. So thank god I'd seen that coming, and save-scummed in advance. But anyways, this guy feels surprisingly strong. He has all the herbs, too, which is just like magic, only without the pesky mana pool.
Oh, and on top of that I ate a dog and a fairy, and now I have teleportitis and TP control, so that's immensely useful =)
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2019-01-03, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
All this discussion is making me think that I should give ADOM another try, I only just scratched the surface on my last attempt. It sounds like a very interesting game.
To those who are sometimes a bit frustrated by the randomness and obscurity of some classic roguelike mechanics, you might want to give Tales of Maj'Eyal a try. Though it is a complex game, it's unusually transparent with its information compared to others in the genre. You can always see the exact abilities of monsters and the powerful ones are clearly highlighted, there are no cursed items in the traditional sense (except for a few classes who can deliberately choose to curse their items to gain powers) and the game usually warns you with a pop-up if you are about to do something potentially dangerous. The default game mode also gives you a handful of lives instead of just one - so while you still can't afford to be totally reckless, one mistake won't end your run.
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2019-01-03, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
You really should (try ADOM). It's free, for god's sake. Except increasingly I feel you should buy the paid version regardless. It seems to have all the stuff I want - including the option to turn off perma-death. I know, I'm a bad roguelike player =)
So. Dwarf Town (and yes, essentially I've kidnapped my own thread). I'm essentially flying blind now. From Dwarf Town, it's either the forest or the abandoned dwarf caves next. I've tried both before, and made it through the forest. Not so much with the abandoned caves. Holy crap the caves were a horror. I was a troll, after all. What can you do.
So the forest it will have to be. Maybe. Cause now I'm an elf, and an archer, and maybe the caves are less ..... daunting? The real difference is that there is experience and loot in the caves. I suppose the same is true if you try to chop down the forest, but ... meh.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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2019-01-03, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Into the Breach was on sale, and given how much I liked FTL I figured I'd give it a shot.
I'm liking it. It's either significantly easier or just something I'm better at (and it being turn based makes the latter option a very serious contender), judging by winning game 7 or so, but there's a few mech squadrons that are analogous to weird ships I had a lot of trouble with, so it should hold up for a good long while. Plus there's the four islands option.
In short, I'd strongly recommend it.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2019-01-03, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
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2019-01-03, 05:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Secret Lair on Sol c
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
There’s our problem ... trees are by far the easier route, even if its more tedious. The usual strategy to get though it is to not attack anything and simply move as fast as possible to tje opposite corner while your tactics setting is on coward, the trees are quite placid unless you piss them off, and the few thats aggressive can be tun away from by simply ignoring them and moving on as soon as gaps appear
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2019-01-03, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
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2019-01-03, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Go through the forest. But definitely remember Dwarven Halls when you get that sweet familiar summoning scroll as a reward from the dwarf lord.
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2019-01-03, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
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2019-01-03, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Wait, what?
I am quite positive Thrundarr always rewards you the same for whether you pass AF or DH. The only thing that an ?oFS does in relation to DH, I thought, was that DH:2, due to its inflated danger level, makes for a fantastic place to get yourself a high-level familiar.
As for AF, in 1.1.1 you could equip two shields and just hold an arrow because attempts at attacking would always lead to a message saying that you can't attack. Otherwise, I think you can try using a wand of digging or a pickaxe and simply dig your way around the forest. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in always carefully walking through everything and not hitting trees.
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2019-01-03, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
I was alluding to the danger level trick, yes. I didn't say he gives something different.
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2019-01-03, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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2019-01-03, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
Say - did anyone try Low Magic Age?
Frankly I'm not sure it's a roguelike at all, but it's on sale, and immensely well received (it's in early access), so I figured I'd ask regardless =)
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2019-01-04, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)
I came up with my own teleportation solution to the animated forest, a long time ago.
Spoiler
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My current choice of roguelike is Cinco Paus. I don't have the patience for full-length roguelikes anymore.The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.