Spiderman: a new universe

[Kirjath]

I disagree, but that's pretty dang subjective, to be fair. For me, they didn't establish a substantial relationship with Miles like Peter and Gwen did, so they were there for the humor.

Somewhat spoilers, I guess, but I share your reasoning that the other three spider-people in the movie weren't supposed to be developed like the main characters.

Spoiler: Character Intros

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For one, Peni, Peter Porker, and Spider-Noir were all introduced simultaneously, compared to Peter B Parker and Gwen Stacy who got their own introductions. This instantly told me those three were gonna be side characters.

And I think they did a great job as side characters. The movie developed Peter B and Gwen exactly as much as it needed to. Miles was the protagonist with the most growth needed, but the other two got a significant character arc throughout the film as well.

So I believe, subjectively, that the movie nailed the character development it wanted/needed to, with only a potential misstep when it came to Peni later in the movie.

[Peelee]

Somewhat spoilers, I guess, but I share your reasoning that the other three spider-people in the movie weren't supposed to be developed like the main characters.

Spoiler: Character Intros

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For one, Peni, Peter Porker, and Spider-Noir were all introduced simultaneously, compared to Peter B Parker and Gwen Stacy who got their own introductions. This instantly told me those three were gonna be side characters.

And I think they did a great job as side characters. The movie developed Peter B and Gwen exactly as much as it needed to. Miles was the protagonist with the most growth needed, but the other two got a significant character arc throughout the film as well.

So I believe, subjectively, that the movie nailed the character development it wanted/needed to, with only a potential misstep when it came to Peni later in the movie.

Good point, I'll toss that into a spoiler tag.

[Lethologica]

GW: Incredibles is definitely the deeper film. But honestly, that's a crazy high bar to set, given that Incredibles is a top-5 Pixar film and my personal pick for best superhero movie ever. Like, I get comparing the two here when people are calling this the best superhero movie, but in the theater? That's a bit much, innit?

I think where we disagree is on how much fun Spider-verse is. I mean, if the pacing dragged for you, we clearly saw the film differently. I never felt like I was waiting for things to happen during this movie.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GW: Incredibles is definitely the deeper film. But honestly, that's a crazy high bar to set, given that Incredibles is a top-5 Pixar film and my personal pick for best superhero movie ever. Like, I get comparing the two here when people are calling this the best superhero movie, but in the theater? That's a bit much, innit?

Normally it would, but that's where the hype came in. I only went to see the film (and dragged my SO with me, despite them not liking spider-man; honestly this film has probably caused irreparable damage there) on the basis of the glowing reviews. And it's a logical comparison point: an animated superhero movie of a themed team.

I think where we disagree is on how much fun Spider-verse is. I mean, if the pacing dragged for you, we clearly saw the film differently. I never felt like I was waiting for things to happen during this movie.

We knew extra spider people were coming. They just didn't, for ages. But yes, pacing is deeply personal, that's why I gave ample warning before and after giving my personal opinion on the film. For the record, though, this film dragged in the same way homecoming dragged: there is only so much teen "comedy" I can stomach.

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Miles' hand getting stuck in Gwen's hair scene was particularly boring.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Normally it would, but that's where the hype came in. I only went to see the film (and dragged my SO with me, despite them not liking spider-man; honestly this film has probably caused irreparable damage there) on the basis of the glowing reviews.

Oof, that couldn't have helped at all. I fortunately had the opposite outcome; my wife tends to not find most comedies or comedians funny, but she thought they were hitting all the right notes on the jokes in there and came out loving it as much as I did.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oof, that couldn't have helped at all. I fortunately had the opposite outcome; my wife tends to not find most comedies or comedians funny, but she thought they were hitting all the right notes on the jokes in there and came out loving it as much as I did.

Literally the first words out of my SO's mouth after the film were something along the lines of "this film must be a blast for anyone that already likes these characters. But not for me". It ties into the lack of character development. They liked Miles well enough, but the rest they found cliched. Can't actually blame them for that, either.

Grey Wolf

[Starbuck_II]

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I liked Future Spiderman, I loved the gag scene at end with him. Totally didn't expect that.

Thought they did a great job, very entertaining.

[Tyndmyr]

Alright...first off, if you have epilepsy or something, you sadly shouldn't see this movie. Rapid flashing and such is a thing here.

Before this film, I never knew how much I wanted to see Noir Spiderman Nick Cage talking about drinking an Egg Cream. The animation was mostly good, though some of it felt...hmm, distracting isn't quite right. More like the animators were focused on showing off, so much so that it pulled focus? It's not the same thing as bad animation, but early on, I was wondering if the usher had forgotten to give me 3d glasses.

We do have a few too many characters, and it gets a bit disjointed later on. Not badly so, the main plot is serviceable enough, but far too much discussion of origin stories happens. This is essentially an origin story for Morales, so every additional bit of repetition for other spider-people ends up slowing the pace down. Probably would have been better if they'd cut a couple of the less important spider people. Peter Porker and anime-spidergirl could have both been axed easily, as they contribute fairly little to the plot, and they spread the tone across a lot of range. That said, props for them for trying to edit the intros down.

Personal relationships were well done, but I agree that the big bad was...workable, but not a great deal more. He drives the plot, he has a plausible motivation, but there's not a whole lot else there.

Pacing:

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Yeah. We knew what kind of movie it was, given the trailers, but the movie took an awful long time to get around to delivering on what it sold us on. There's a great deal of waiting on the characters to figure out stuff that we already know.

Now, in fairness, this could have been addressed by the trailer not focusing on the multiple spider-people aspect, but if that's the central premise you're going with, it's like having a hulk movie where you spend most of the film with no hulk. Everyone knows he's gonna eventually go hulk out, and that's what they came to the theater to see. Adding lots of waiting makes that slow.

Overall, I thought it was a good movie, but not a great movie. Worth a watch, but I can't see myself lining up to see it twice, yknow

[Grey_Wolf_c]

<snip>

Oh, good, I wasn't the only one, then. (I lean more towards "if you put a character in a movie, develop it" than "if you are not going to develop a character, axe it", but those seem to be two sides of the same coin)

Grey Wolf

[Tyndmyr]

My girlfriend flat out hated the film, I was just sorta middle of the road on it.

Developing is also a valid approach, for sure. I just leaned for the 'axe a couple' because there are so many characters and far too much time is developed to origin stories as is. I don't think we could reasonably add much more time to the start of the film without slowing things to an utter crawl. So...getting away with one joke character seems to be the easy route. The one I chose was admittedly solely personal preference, but one comedic character to set up jokes in a gang works well for a lot of films.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My girlfriend flat out hated the film, I was just sorta middle of the road on it.

Developing is also a valid approach, for sure. I just leaned for the 'axe a couple' because there are so many characters and far too much time is developed to origin stories as is. I don't think we could reasonably add much more time to the start of the film without slowing things to an utter crawl. So...getting away with one joke character seems to be the easy route. The one I chose was admittedly solely personal preference, but one comedic character to set up jokes in a gang works well for a lot of films.

Yep, it sounds like you and I saw the same film.

Kinda wish I had seen Peelee's version, though (this joke appropriated from the best joke ever told in Friends not involving Hugh Laurie).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Yep, it sounds like you and I saw the same film.

Kinda wish I had seen Peelee's version, though (this joke appropriated from the best joke ever told in Friends not involving Hugh Laurie).

Grey Wolf

I've seen a lot of Friends. I'm hesitant to call anything the best joke in that series, so I'll just assume I missed that episode.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've seen a lot of Friends. I'm hesitant to call anything the best joke in that series, so I'll just assume I missed that episode.

It's a moment between the Ross, Monica and their parents. The parents - especially the dad - have been consistently preferring Ross to Monica, usually telling her to be more like him whenever she's had issues (like once being short on funds).

Then, in this episode, Ross is the one in trouble and needing their help. The parents answer? "Monica, why didn't you warn him?" or something along those "this is your fault, Monica" lines.

The parents leave the scene, and Monica turns to Ross and delivers the line:
"I know you can't change your parents. But if I could, I'd want yours".

A lot of the humour in Friends has not aged well. But this line? This line continues to make me chuckle a decade plus later.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It's a moment between the Ross, Monica and their parents. The parents - especially the dad - have been consistently preferring Ross to Monica, usually telling her to be more like him whenever she's had issues (like once being short on funds).

Then, in this episode, Ross is the one in trouble and needing their help. The parents answer? "Monica, why didn't you warn him?" or something along those "this is your fault, Monica" lines.

The parents leave the scene, and Monica turns to Ross and delivers the line:
"I know you can't change your parents. But if I could, I'd want yours".

A lot of the humour in Friends has not aged well. But this line? This line continues to make me chuckle a decade plus later.

Grey Wolf

Huh. I actually did see that episode. The Gellar parents were pretty funny, I gotta say. Poor Monica.

[Kyberwulf]

Huh? What hype?

I am curious because, where I am, no one was really talking about this movie. Most places I have been on the internet haven't been talking about this movie. Up to today, since the release, no one is still really talking about this movie? The most I had seen is when the trailer dropped and people said, I kind of want to see that movie.

I mean, there was so little hype, that I thought this was a straight to DVD release, I was walking around Target looking for the movie, before I happen to look at movie showings.

[Clertar]

Huh? What hype?

I am curious because, where I am, no one was really talking about this movie. Most places I have been on the internet haven't been talking about this movie. Up to today, since the release, no one is still really talking about this movie? The most I had seen is when the trailer dropped and people said, I kind of want to see that movie.

I mean, there was so little hype, that I thought this was a straight to DVD release, I was walking around Target looking for the movie, before I happen to look at movie showings.

Well it was the #1 movie in the US last weekend. This weekend it's probably dropped, but by all accounts it's performing really well.

[lord_khaine]

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Well.. the intro/background of whom i suspect is meant to be spider man we grew up with had the entire room laughting.
I especially loved the subtle disconnected between his story and what were shown on the screen.
And it made me strangely connected to him as a character.

[Peelee]

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Well.. the intro/background of whom i suspect is meant to be spider man we grew up with had the entire room laughting.
I especially loved the subtle disconnected between his story and what were shown on the screen.
And it made me strangely connected to him as a character.

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I got the impression that he very much wasn't the Spider-Man we grew up with. The blonde hair alone was a pretty notable indicator there, and the (arguably) perfect life as well. Unless you mean the fat Spider-Man, which I also see as a different one as well.

[Clertar]

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I got the impression that he very much wasn't the Spider-Man we grew up with. The blonde hair alone was a pretty notable indicator there, and the (arguably) perfect life as well. Unless you mean the fat Spider-Man, which I also see as a different one as well.

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Pretty sure he means the "fat" one, aka Earth 616 Peter Parker.

[Peelee]

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Pretty sure he means the "fat" one, aka Earth 616 Peter Parker.

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Thanks. Though by the Earth 616 PP, I assume that means not ours? Inasmuch as one could be ours.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah, I was going to research that. I haven't been up on the Peter 616 lore as I should be. I didn't realize that his life went that crappy, or was that done for comedic effect.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i meant the fat one. And 616 is suposed to be the "normal" marvel universe.

Regarding the bit about his life being crappy. Well that bit would fit into the span of 2-4 months.
Depending on mow much pizza he ate.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It seems like it's a modified version of the 616 Peter.

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The bits where his Aunt May died and he divorced MJ are a clear reference to One More Day, but redone so as to not be absurd, and their ultimate resolution rebuts that arc. So while it doesn't exactly match, it's imo better for it.

[Peelee]

It seems like it's a modified version of the 616 Peter.

Imean, in an infinite universe, it seems like that would just be another universe's Peter that was just closer to 616 than others.

Keep in mind, this thread is what made me realize all the other Spideys had comics (and I really want to read The Amazing Spider-Ham) and didn't really follow the character except for the animated series in the mid 90s, but it just sounds like that'd be the easiest explanation for any differences.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Technically, it's supposed to actually be 616; they show the different universe numbers on a computer screen when the thing happens. But yeah.

[Legato Endless]

Personal relationships were well done, but I agree that the big bad was...workable, but not a great deal more. He drives the plot, he has a plausible motivation, but there's not a whole lot else there.

This would be my nickpick. I'd cut Fisk entirely from the film, he's not developed enough to be anything other than the final boss obstacle. He's not even really established, he gets two montages and a flashback to those montages to explain why we have a movie. If it was just Doc Ock doing mad science and keeping Prowler around for a more personal confrontation with Miles at the end, it would have been a more elegant emotional climax.

It's a delightfully fun film, but I think it's transcendence depends on how much comedy versus character drama you want in your escapism.

[Ramza00]

Peter B Parker is 616 the number is shown on the computer screen. So he is a modified version of One More Day and in his late 30s (he stated he was Spider-Man for 22 years in his intro.) To my understand we never seen 616 22 years out, so this hypothetical Peter B Parker is what happens when you have a similar story to One More Day and he was then aged past that time we saw in the comics.

This would be my nickpick. I'd cut Fisk entirely from the film, he's not developed enough to be anything other than the final boss obstacle. He's not even really established, he gets two montages and a flashback to those montages to explain why we have a movie. If it was just Doc Ock doing mad science and keeping Prowler around for a more personal confrontation with Miles at the end, it would have been a more elegant emotional climax.

It's a delightfully fun film, but I think it's transcendence depends on how much comedy versus character drama you want in your escapism.

Sorry but I disagree (this is my subjective opinion), Fisk was necessary. Sure he could have been done better, but the whole point of Fisk is the promise of undoing loss, with hypothetical universes. This parallel nicely onto Spider-Mans on how they were all born / change by the loss and you can't magically put things back together again but even though loss sucks, the promise of the future and connections you never had / never realized you had are still possible.

Sure the Fisk part probably could have been subtly improved, but the story would lose something if it was just a Doc Ock mad science thing. I feel the story was enhanced by the entire human motivation of trying to undo the impossible for our emotions / desires want the impossible.

[Clertar]

Peter B Parker doesn't need to be a modified no-One Day More version of comics Spider-man. There's enough time that everything mentioned about his life can still happen to 2018 comics Peter Parker.

The Peter in the movie is quite a bit older than current comics Peter Parker: when Silk was introduced it was stated that they were both bit by the spider 13 years earlier, and Peter was 15 at the time. Spider-verse was in 2015 so our Peter, in 2018, is what, 31. That gives plenty of years for aunt May's death, the wedding with Mary Jane, their divorce, and him effectively becoming movie Peter B Parker.

[Ramza00]

Peter B Parker doesn't need to be a modified no-One Day More version of comics Spider-man. There's enough time that everything mentioned about his life can still happen to 2018 comics Peter Parker.

The Peter in the movie is quite a bit older than current comics Peter Parker: when Silk was introduced it was stated that they were both bit by the spider 13 years earlier, and Peter was 15 at the time. Spider-verse was in 2015 so our Peter, in 2018, is what, 31. That gives plenty of years for aunt May's death, the wedding with Mary Jane, their divorce, and him effectively becoming movie Peter B Parker.

We already know the universes are not direct 1:1 analogues with the comics, for Blond Peter Parker is the Ultimate version (and movie verse it listed the main reality a 1610) and Blond Peter Parke was 26 and Spider-Man for about 10 years.

While Comic 1610 Peter is very much in his teens and there was only a few years of 1610 Peter between him being bitten to the events that leads to 1610 Miles Morales.

So you are right Clertar it could be a future Peter Parker without One More Day, or it can be a future Peter Parker that is heaviy inspired by One More Day set of events. It is ultimately unprovable / unfalsifiable and we already know this based off Blonde Peter (movie 1610) events being different than comics 1610 with the age discrepancies.

[Legato Endless]

Sorry but I disagree (this is my subjective opinion), Fisk was necessary. Sure he could have been done better, but the whole point of Fisk is the promise of undoing loss, with hypothetical universes. This parallel nicely onto Spider-Mans on how they were all born / change by the loss and you can't magically put things back together again but even though loss sucks, the promise of the future and connections you never had / never realized you had are still possible.

I'm not really sure why you're sorry for giving an opinion. Or for clarifying that it's subjective. That's self evident. I..don't think I've ever given you cause to think I'd take a basic tenant of discourse at anything other than face value...? But opinions are fun. So. Responses:

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Necessity is a hard thing to argue for or against. My disagreement would be, I feel it makes far more sense to have the final showdown grounded in the primary emotional thread of the narrative. The metagag and unifying characteristic of loss is a good shared trait, but it's not the definitive one that binds the heroes together.

The theme of the film is expectations and how they shape identity. How anyone can be a hero. Expectations and boundaries is Miles' central conflict. Not loss. It's also Peter's. And Gwen's. What truly binds them together is they always get up. That's the heart of the film.

That's why structurally the biggest emotional beat that the film turns on isn't a death scene. It's Miles' listening to his dad talk about his spark. And why his Dad's talk to him isn't really about the loss they just experienced. And the catharsis when he takes that fully to heart immediately follows. It's why when Peter talks to alternate universe MJ the texture plays itself more comically than for pathos.

Fisk isn't grounded in that. He's tapped into the third or fourth thematic beat of the narrative. Which is why when Miles gets back up to defeat him, what he draws strength from isn't grief. It's his shared belief in himself inspired by his dad.

But Prowler is directly tied to the core. It's why he never quits is a catch phase. It's why his advise parallels Peter's.

Sure the Fisk part probably could have been subtly improved, but the story would lose something if it was just a Doc Ock mad science thing. I feel the story was enhanced by the entire human motivation of trying to undo the impossible for our emotions / desires want the impossible.

No, my point was more the device bringing everyone together is mostly a plot...device, and letting that just be a device to free up more room for more central development seems logical. Ock is part of the comedic tonal fun of the film. Letting Prowler keep the pathos end works better than Kingpin. Dramaturgically, having the final face off be against the opponent who is also rooted in the central theme seems well, usually objectively better than an antagonism rooted in a strong but not central mirrored trait. Which half the time is played as a meta-gag in the narrative. *shrugs*

If you feel adding more to Fisk is better than eliminating him, that's quite fair, but I would find any assertion having him as climatic fight being better than Prowler quite odd thematically. Which you haven't said, but I'm not sure how 'mostly fine as is' your position precisely lands on.

I also don't really think what I'm arguing for is subtle at all. I'm just asking for like, two real scenes that actually show Fisk's family and flavor his motives so we have some texture to care. I wanted Peter to succeed with MJ, and their only real interaction outside a montage was an extended food joke. Which still tied directly into expectations twisting relationships. As is, you could have swapped out Fisk's wife and child for a beloved dead hamster and the plot would work identically.