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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    I'm currently playing a level 6 bard/paladin hybrid, and while I know that hybrids in general aren't going to be as powerful as a single class hero, it is baffling me just how far behind I am in terms of power. I rolled decent stats, if not particularly amazing, and yet I'm not even as good with social skills as some of the other, non-charisma based characters (as an example, the fluffing wizard has a higher bluff than me, and I beat the assassin in Diplomacy by only two points)

    My combat utility is almost non-existent -except for some clutch healing here and there- as both my to-hit and damage are abysmally low. Any suggestions on what powers I should be looking at to make my little lass a bit more useful? As a note, I'm planning on going hospitaler at paragon tier and really leaning into being the only healer in the group.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    We may be able to help, but this sounds like a scenario where the devil is in the details. Can you provide more information about your build? Race, stats, powers, trained skills and feats would be a great place to start.

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    Lord Haart's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    As far as hybrids go, Bard|Paladin has the privilege of being in the "actually works" group, and is actually quite potent. Of course, as with all hybrids, you need to design your character tightly to achieve mechanical coherency and effectiveness.

    What made you make a hybrid, rather than a Bard multiclassing into a Paladin, a Paladin multiclassing into a Bard, an Ardent (which thematically lies inbetween the two), or a Bard or Paladin character with a Paladin or Bard-like theme?

    And i'm seconding the request for the details.

    Generally speaking, as a bard and paladin hybrid, you're either using paladin's challenge and divine sanction to enhance bard's already strong control, keeping the monsters at a huge disadvantage no matter what they do; or focus on doing paladin stuff while slipping scald's auras and buffs into your action economy here and there, turning into something like Diablo II's auradin. You are not a pacifist cleric, nor a full Leader (and Bard is one of the worst leaders healing-wise, it's awesomeness lies in manipulation). You have no business healing.

    Also, you've mentioned rolling for stats. That might be a big part of your problem; stats in this edition are not really suppose to be rolled. Having your main stat modifer be 2 lower than it could be is huge, and assassins and especially wizards have no business investing into Charisma enough to be anywhere near you on stat+5 for trained+half a level basis alone. (Of course, it's a different story if they're half-elves and took feats to boost their Diplomacy)
    Last edited by Lord Haart; 2018-12-17 at 07:48 PM.
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    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    I'll add another point to the request for details: what books do you get to use? You'll get different advice if you're working with only the PHBs than if you have access to every book and magazine.

    One preliminary note -- Hospitaler PP is far from optimal itself, as tasty as it may seem at a glance.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miz_Liz View Post
    I'm currently playing a level 6 bard/paladin hybrid, and while I know that hybrids in general aren't going to be as powerful as a single class hero, it is baffling me just how far behind I am in terms of power. I rolled decent stats, if not particularly amazing, and yet I'm not even as good with social skills as some of the other, non-charisma based characters (as an example, the fluffing wizard has a higher bluff than me, and I beat the assassin in Diplomacy by only two points)

    My combat utility is almost non-existent -except for some clutch healing here and there- as both my to-hit and damage are abysmally low. Any suggestions on what powers I should be looking at to make my little lass a bit more useful? As a note, I'm planning on going hospitaler at paragon tier and really leaning into being the only healer in the group.
    Others have given some advice; I'm going to try and get into specifics.

    1) What do you mean by "decent?" Was your CHA, including your racial bonus, 18 or higher at level 1? 16? It's important to know (most 4e games go with point buy, FWIW).

    2) Just to verify- is your DM giving out appropriate items? If you started at level 1, you should have 4-5 items plus a decent amount of gold (you should've received roughly 1300gp over the course of your adventures). If not, ask them about using Inherent Bonuses.

    3) In terms of skills- obviously, random rolls can have an effect- if you roll a 1 on Diplomacy and the Assassin rolls a 20, they're going to be higher than you at this point. If you're trained in Diplomacy, or if you have the Bard of All Trades feat (which would mean that training a skill only nets you a bonus of 1), you should be fine. Assuming a starting 18 score in CHA, you should be at 3 for half level, plus 5 for training, plus 4 for CHA modifier, for a total of 12 or so bonus to Diplomacy. If you didn't train Bluff and don't have BoAT and the Wizard did train, it's not unreasonable that they would have a higher Bluff. Wizards also get cantrips that let them use Arcana for dialogue skills on an Encounter basis, which could be some of your confusion.

    4) In terms of combat utility- your to hit should be something like 3 for half level, 4 for CHA modifier, 1 for Enhancement bonus on your weapon/implement, and + proficiency bonus on your weapon on a weapon attack. If you took an Expertise feat (and you should soon if you haven't), add another 1. Total of +9 or so to hit on Implement attacks and +11 or +12 on Weapon attacks. Enemy AC should be about 20 for an at level enemy, and non armor defenses should be about 18, so you should be hitting on an 8-9. Do those numbers sound right?

    5) Your job isn't to do damage, it is to Lead and Defend. You should think about which one you want to focus on more- you can do both, but you'll probably specialize more with one or the other. Noting that at this point you have one power from each of your classes, a few of the nice powers could be:


    At Will- Bard
    *Staggering Note- Bard At Will, attack and grant an ally an MBA if you hit, with some forced movement baked in (Dragon Mag 383)

    If you don't like that or don't have access to Dragon Magazine-

    *Jinx Shot for Weapon attacks- damage and they fall prone if they miss on an attack (Arcane Power)
    *Vicious Mockery for Implement attacks- damage and a -2 penalty to attack rolls (PHB2)

    Encounter- Bard
    *Blunder (E1)- Like an upgraded Staggering Note (PHB2)
    *Echoing Weapon (E3)- gives an ally damage on their next attack, hit or miss. It's a separate instance, so they get most of their bonuses again (Heroes of the Feywild)
    *Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade (E3- I really like this one)- Immediate Interrupt triggered when an ally misses, ranged weapon attack vs an NAD, if you hit, you deal damage AND the enemy takes a -4 to defenses, so your ally might actually hit too (Arcane Power)

    Daily- Bard
    Song of Discord (D5- PHB 2), Arrow of Warning (D1- Arcane Power), Timeless Trek in Mithrendain (D5- Dragon 387) are all really good. Pick the one you like.

    Utility- From what you've said, you're lacking healing other than you in the party. Revitalizing Incantation (U6- Heroes of the Feywild) is ridiculously good for that. If you need something else, say so, but that's almost certainly your best power.

    On the Paladin side (so defendery stuff)-
    At Will
    *Virtuous Strike (Divine Power)- gives you a competent MBA, which is nice for OAs and such. If you have one (you're a Tiefling or a Half Elf at Paragon tier), Ardent Strike from DP (puts Divine Sanction on your enemy) or Enfeebling Strike (PHB) for a hit penalty.

    Encounter
    *Valorous Smite (E1- Divine Power) Hit and do a mass Divine Sanction. If you have a high Wisdom, maybe Righteous Smite as an E3, but really, mass sanctions are your marking jam.

    Daily
    Majestic Halo (D1- DP)- Mass Sanctioning guaranteed. See above. Radiant Delirium (D1-PHB) isn't bad, but Majestic Halo is much better.

    Utility-
    Call of Challenge (U2- DP)- Mass Sanction.

    A Bard|Paladin at 6 who has a way of having a Weapliment or Ki Focus (either MC Sorcerer for dagger proficiency, monk for Ki Focuses, or the Elemental Initiate theme for Ki Focuses, or just take Arcane Implement Proficiency and save your MC), with something like:

    Staggering Note (Bard at will)
    Virtuous Strike (Paladin At Will)
    Valorous Smite (Paladin E1)
    Majestic Halo (Paladin D1)
    Call of Challenge (Paladin U2)
    Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade or Echoing Weapon (Bard E3)
    Any of the listed Bard D5s
    Revitalizing Incantation (Bard U6)

    can heal decently, mass mark multiple times per encounter, make an MBA if an enemy is sneaking away, grant allies MBAs and occasionally either more damage or turn a miss into a hit. That's a lot of in combat utility even if your damage numbers aren't very good.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: How to handle a weirdly unoptimized character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Haart View Post
    assassins and especially wizards have no business investing into Charisma enough to be anywhere near you on stat+5 for trained+half a level basis alone. (Of course, it's a different story if they're half-elves and took feats to boost their Diplomacy)
    Agree on the rest of it, but Cha secondary is actually standard for Night Stalker assassins, and Tiefling Wizards can do Int/Cha pretty effectively (Imperious Majesty fixes init, and wizard doesn't really need a secondary). I had a tielfing enchanter/illusionist whose untrained bluff was her best skill because +4 class, +2 race, +2 theme.

    Otherwise, I mostly need to echo what's been said: 4e doesn't assume or work particularly well with rolled stats, dice rolls matter a LOT, especially at lower levels, magic items and expertise feats aren't really optional.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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