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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Five bucks on the lawyer answer: "Dude, just don't do that. If you want a more detailed answer, here are my hourly rates."
    You owe me 5 dollars.

    I asked a relative of mine who is a lawyer, and his assessment was "as long as it was non-lethal, you're probably fine." He did mention that court case above, but said something like dye or glitter, even if it caused some property damage was fine.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    You owe me 5 dollars.

    I asked a relative of mine who is a lawyer, and his assessment was "as long as it was non-lethal, you're probably fine." He did mention that court case above, but said something like dye or glitter, even if it caused some property damage was fine.
    Well, ya got me. You'll need those five dollars when for the potential civil suit to pay for damages.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    You owe me 5 dollars.

    I asked a relative of mine who is a lawyer, and his assessment was "as long as it was non-lethal, you're probably fine." He did mention that court case above, but said something like dye or glitter, even if it caused some property damage was fine.
    Curious. What state or locale does your friend practice in, and what is their specialty? Criminal law, civil law, divorces? Something else entirely?

    Also, while I note that some of the video was faked, the parts that are still reckoned genuine don't modify the understanding we have; NASA engineer had packages stolen, got no help from the police, devised an over-engineered and ingenious trap intended to humiliate the thieves without actually hurting them.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Curious. What state or locale does your friend practice in, and what is their specialty? Criminal law, civil law, divorces? Something else entirely?

    Also, while I note that some of the video was faked, the parts that are still reckoned genuine don't modify the understanding we have; NASA engineer had packages stolen, got no help from the police, devised an over-engineered and ingenious trap intended to humiliate the thieves without actually hurting them.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    My problem was and is that he made an enormous profit by doing it. Some of the video was faked, and he was caught on those, the rest he hasn't been caught on yet. This was an extremely expensive trick machine, there were four iphones in it, that's what $1200? more?

    A real thief would have taken the thing to bits and sold the phones.

    People will do all sorts of things for youtube fame and profits, remember that guy who thought a book was going to be bullet proof and died when it wasn't? he thought he was going to be rich and famous, also because of one video that he hoped would go viral. This quy was actually lucky, his did go viral, and now he's probably much richer than he was.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2018-12-23 at 12:39 PM.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Great Modthulhu:Just a reminder guys, but please try to avoid giving anything that might be construed as professional/legal advice, even if secondhand.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    A trap is a very different situation than something that's just inherently dangerous (power tools, a pool). Someone jumping a wall and drowning in a pool is an entirely different situation than someone jumping a wall and falling into a covered punji pit trap, and while this is emphatically not legal advice I can tell you that as a hypothetical juror I'd have some serious side eye for someone putting spiked pits in their back yard in case of thieves.
    Agreed. I wasn't trying to argue a case with my example, or even to suggest a path, only to point out what I found were some interesting similarities.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    This was an extremely expensive trick machine, there were four iphones in it, that's what $1200? more?
    There weren't any iPhones in it. There were four LG G5 phones in it. That's a budget-quality Android phone. New, they can be gotten for $140 each. Used, about half that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    There weren't any iPhones in it. There were four LG G5 phones in it. That's a budget-quality Android phone. New, they can be gotten for $140 each. Used, about half that.
    On Amazon UK I'm seeing £250 new, £100 used. I still think thieves would sell them.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    On Amazon UK I'm seeing £250 new, £100 used. I still think thieves would sell them.
    Also, the phones weren't visible in the as-used design. There were just four small rectangular holes for the cameras.

    Last edited by gomipile; 2018-12-23 at 03:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Yeah, the apparatus seems a bit too "Black box" (yes, yes, it's actually a white box) for anyone to realise there are phones in there without thinking harder about it than most people would while covered in glitter and subjected to a repeated olfactory assault. The only giveaway that there are phones inside is the murder-hole design that accommodates the camera angles, which I genuinely don't know either way whether or not I'd notice under the circumstances. "They'd realise there are phones in there" might be giving these people too much credit.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    might be giving these people too much credit.
    I'd have thought there'd be 3 reactions. The panic dumpers, the relaxed, and the more vengeful.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    Going on the "if the thief was injured" subject, and I am aware I am speaking from complete ignorance here (as I am British), but I thought American Law had some rule that placed blame for any injury and death (even of the perpetrator themselves) caused during the committing of a crime upon the perpetrator of the crime.

    Given that the only reason the perpetrator could be (theoretically) injured was because they stole the item that injured them, wouldn't that rule apply here, or does the fact the item was left with the intent that someone would steal it trump that (or is this rule completely untrue - I am aware I have only came across it in books and TV/movies, so am fully aware it might be complete nonsense)
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Though that would be common sense, it really depends on where the crime is committed. The US, being a federation of separate states, does not have consistent laws on specific situations such as these; each state/jurisdiction decides and makes it's own applicable laws.
    Glorthindel, you may be thinking of the felony murder law that most (all?) states have adopted in some form, which allows soneone who commits a felony to be charged with murder if a person dies during the commission of the felony. Some states also have a voluntary manslaughter law that does the same if someone dies during the commission of a misdemeanor.

    The classic example: If bank robber A kills a guard while robbing a bank, robbers B and C and getaway driver D can all potentially be charged with murder, not just A.

    However, that is still subject to reasonableness based on the circumstances. A booby trap that was designed to harm someone would probably (IANAL) not be considered reasonable.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Knaight's Avatar

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    The classic example: If bank robber A kills a guard while robbing a bank, robbers B and C and getaway driver D can all potentially be charged with murder, not just A.
    That's generally covered by different laws, either conspiracy or accessory to the fact for B and C and conspiracy or accessory after the fact for getaway driver D. The felony murder law is more like "If a guard kills bank robber B while bank robbers A-C are robbing a bank, bank robbers A and C and getaway driver D can all be charged with the murder of bank robber B".
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    That's generally covered by different laws, either conspiracy or accessory to the fact for B and C and conspiracy or accessory after the fact for getaway driver D.
    That is true. However, it does not preclude the fact that it's also covered by the felony murder laws.

    The felony murder law is more like "If a guard kills bank robber B while bank robbers A-C are robbing a bank, bank robbers A and C and getaway driver D can all be charged with the murder of bank robber B".
    That's true but incomplete. In fact, one major complaint about felony murder is that it provides a charge that can potentially yield a similar--or even more severe--punishment than existing law, with a substantially easier burden of proof.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Yeah, conspiracy requires knowledge ahead of time, so if there was no pre-existing plan to kill the guard (A just panics), then the others technically* haven't committed conspiracy.

    Accessory after the fact also requires knowledge, so D would have to know they killed the guard* before he drove away.

    Felony murder doesn't have the knowledge requirement... edit - for the murder. There would still have to be some knowledge/participation in a felony.

    *Talking about whether or not that actually committed the crime, not what a DA might charge them with or a jury believe.
    Last edited by tomandtish; 2019-01-09 at 02:49 PM.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Yeah, conspiracy requires knowledge ahead of time, so if there was no pre-existing plan to kill the guard (A just panics), then the others technically* haven't committed conspiracy.
    This would by why there's two options there, to cover the planned and unplanned cases.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    This would by why there's two options there, to cover the planned and unplanned cases.
    Ahh, but accessory after the fact also requires knowledge.

    if I drive you to the bank to rob it AND you've told me part of the plan involves you killing the guard? Conspiracy to commit murder. (And felony murder).

    If I drive you to the bank because you need to cash a check, and when you come back you tell me you've killed a guard? Accessory after the fact (if I help you escape). Possible felony murder if they decide my helping you warrants a felony charge).

    If I drive you to the bank with intent to rob but not harm anyone, you kill a guard, but I am unaware of that when we leave, then ONLY felony murder (can't be conspiracy for murder since there was no pre-knowledge, or accessory since there was no post knowledge of the murder).

    Again, all these could be vastly different than what a DA thinks they can convict on.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    If I drive you to the bank with intent to rob but not harm anyone, you kill a guard, but I am unaware of that when we leave, then ONLY felony murder (can't be conspiracy for murder since there was no pre-knowledge, or accessory since there was no post knowledge of the murder).

    Again, all these could be vastly different than what a DA thinks they can convict on.
    I'd love to see the "when I was sitting outside the bank in a car to drive the robbers I heard a gunshot then a lot of screaming from inside, but totally didn't know that there had been a murder" argument. In any case my point was that felony murder explicitly includes deaths not caused by the people committing the crime, which is how it generally gets used.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    I would make the slight nitpick that the original motivation behind felony murder laws was specifically to handle situations where everyone involved in the crime, in a strict sense, did cause a death, but not intentionally or in an obvious way (which is why the merger doctrine exists.) So if you're part of a group that robs a bank, but you have no intent to hurt anyone, and in fact your guns are fake, and somebody dies of a heart attack, then you're responsible for that death because you decided to commit a crime, it's reasonably foreseeable that even without real guns, something could go wrong during the commission of that crime that could hurt someone, and if you and your buddies hadn't committed that crime, your victim could have lived.

    The expansion of how that law has been applied and revised has reached a point where it's pretty inconsistent where the cutoff is for being a cause of the death, and the appellate case law hasn't really seen much effort to define some sort of broad limit, so in practice there just ends up being a huge grey area where the only real question is how unsympathetic you are to the jury.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I'd love to see the "when I was sitting outside the bank in a car to drive the robbers I heard a gunshot then a lot of screaming from inside, but totally didn't know that there had been a murder" argument. In any case my point was that felony murder explicitly includes deaths not caused by the people committing the crime, which is how it generally gets used.
    Yeah, and as Xyril says, it varies a lot from state to state (and even within states) as to how it is interpreted AND how it is enforced these days. A prime example of Prosecutorial Discretion.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

    T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: NASA scientist vs. Porch Pirates

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-01-14 at 03:23 PM.

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