Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Aquillion]

Shojo sending Miko to fetch the order caused no end of trouble. Furthermore, to do so he had to accuse them of stuff and stage an elaborate trial, which annoyed them and caused a lot of collateral damage.

However, Shojo also employs a wizard who can cast Teleport. His wizard is not a Sapphire Guard member, meaning they're not bound by any oaths regarding the gate. Why not just send his wizard to fetch them after having his seer locate them? (Sangwaan is a Sapphire Guard member, but it would be easy to justify having her do the necessary investigations - and his wizard should be able to cast Scrying anyway. Not to mention that he has the ghost of a divination-focused wizard helping him, too, and Eugene is extremely familiar with Roy.)

It would have taken two actions and just a few hours. It could be done in secret with any sign that the meeting occurred ever leaving the room they teleported to. Heck, Shojo could teleport out to meet them himself if he wanted and be back within half an hour. (We know he can get at least that long alone, since he managed to do so eventually anyway in order to tell them the plot.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Shojo sending Miko to fetch the order caused no end of trouble. Furthermore, to do so he had to accuse them of stuff and stage an elaborate trial, which annoyed them and caused a lot of collateral damage.

Are you looking for a cast iron reason or a headcanon that is plausible?

Because I cannot give you the former, but off the top of my head, for the latter:

Roy's dad had described Roy in less-than-glowing terms ("a brute with no respect for his elders"), and Shojo had reason to believe that the Order might need a bit of arm twisting to agree to come along. The teleporting wizard is, I believe, deeply invested in teleportation to the point of being utterly useless in combat. Had he been sent and the Order decided to put up a fight, he'd be dead in the first round. And Shojo had reason to believe they might.

Same with him going along - too risky to put his neck out like that, not when he's had a lifetime of experience of being in danger.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

I think the most likely answer is Eugene came up with the basic "put the Order on trial" plot - and Shojo went along with Eugene's suggestions, doing his best to make it look convincing to the Sapphire Guard.

It's possible that the first few events in the aftermath of the Gate destruction - an alarm going off on their "Gate integrity indicator"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html

followed by Shojo ordering some scrying:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

involved Shojo and senior Sapphire Guard members being present for the alarm and the scrying, so he couldn't just wave off the charges, since they knew that a gate was destroyed and somebody was responsible.

off the top of my head, for the latter:

Roy's dad had described Roy in less-than-glowing terms ("a brute with no respect for his elders"), and Shojo had reason to believe that the Order might need a bit of arm twisting to agree to come along. The teleporting wizard is, I believe, deeply invested in teleportation to the point of being utterly useless in combat. Had he been sent and the Order decided to put up a fight, he'd be dead in the first round. And Shojo had reason to believe they might.

Same with him going along - too risky to put his neck out like that, not when he's had a lifetime of experience of being in danger.

That works as well:

[Keltest]

The trial was used as an excuse to explain the Order's presence in Azure City and in the palace, as opposed to a bunch of northerners just appearing out of nowhere and needing to be let in and out of Shojo's chambers periodically. Since they would nominally be against this trial, sending Miko (or, theoretically, another paladin) ensures that they do arrive.

[zimmerwald1915]

On top of everything that's been said, sending Miko to collect the Order has the added benefit of getting Miko out of everyone's hair for the duration of her mission.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On top of everything that's been said, sending Miko to collect the Order has the added benefit of getting Miko out of everyone's hair for the duration of her mission.

Harsh, but true. Canonical, too.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

The trial was used as an excuse to explain the Order's presence in Azure City and in the palace, as opposed to a bunch of northerners just appearing out of nowhere and needing to be let in and out of Shojo's chambers periodically. Since they would nominally be against this trial, sending Miko (or, theoretically, another paladin) ensures that they do arrive.

Agreed.

While Shojo could theoretically have met the Order elsewhere, there might be rumours if he had to do it regularly (hell, the teleporting wizard might talk, for one), or maybe Shojo was not willing to leave the luxuries of the palace when he could do things a bit more in the open.

[Kish]

Next question: Why did he tell Miko he was sending her to arrest them, instead of telling her, "Bring this sealed letter to the leader of the Order of the Stick. It's imperative that it not be opened by anyone but him. Wait for his reply. If he says he's willing to come talk to me, escort him back."?

(My answer is: Because Shojo related to everyone as chess pieces. He wasn't thinking in terms of getting a message to the Order; he was thinking in terms of getting the Order to him, regardless of their desires in the matter. He was also willfully blind to how volatile Miko was, and assumed that she would obey the letter of his orders without thought, as he did with every one of the paladins.)

(Other reasons can be proposed, but "because Miko never got missions to act as a messenger" would be a really bad one, considering what her next assignment after No Cure for the Paladin Blues ended was.)

[hamishspence]

Next question: Why did he tell Miko he was sending her to arrest them, instead of telling her, "Bring this sealed letter to the leader of the Order of the Stick. It's imperative that it not be opened by anyone but him. Wait for his reply. If he says he's willing to come talk to me, escort him back."?

Maybe, as the second-in-command of the Sapphire Guard, she was present for Sangwaan telling Shojo that

"The group known as the Order of the Stick were the ones who destroyed Dorukan's Gate and endangered the fabric of existence".


Shojo then saying "Deliver a message to the Order of the Stick inviting them to come back (which they can decline)" would have sounded a lot of alarm bells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Next question: Why did he tell Miko he was sending her to arrest them, instead of telling her, "Bring this sealed letter to the leader of the Order of the Stick. It's imperative that it not be opened by anyone but him. Wait for his reply. If he says he's willing to come talk to me, escort him back."?

"Never put anything in writing that might fall into the wrong hands. And especially never then put said writing into the wrong hands yourself"?

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Given that Shojo died in part because he apparently didn't have a door, I cannot say with any certainty that he didn't regularly instruct his diviners to make sensitive reports he didn't know the contents of in advance in front of the paladins he was trying to manipulate, but that doesn't fit with either version of the flashback; Shojo told Miko that the Gate had been destroyed, not Sangwaan told Shojo and Miko that the Gate had been destroyed.

[hamishspence]

Shojo told Miko that the Gate had been destroyed, not Sangwaan told Shojo and Miko that the Gate had been destroyed.

Miko also knows that the Order of the Stick, specifically, are responsible, because "diviners" say so:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

Sangwaan being the diviners' spokeswoman at the trial

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html


so I can believe that these:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html


don't show the whole story - and that she's told exactly who, before or after this.

[woweedd]

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.

[hamishspence]

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.

I don't think any answer other than "Shojo is really senile, not just pretending to be" would satisfy, though.

[Lacuna Caster]

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.

I have been down this rabbit-hole before, but thanks anyway woweedd.

[Caerulea]

They may not want to send a non-paladin to deal explicitly with the gates. The first thing Miko did when she found them was verbally charged them with messing with the fabric of reality. Not telling them what they were accused of would have made getting them back harder, and would seem unfair. If the wizard is there, he would have heard and presumably been curious. Vaarsuvius certainly was.

[Kish]

They may not want to send a non-paladin to deal explicitly with the gates.

Think Shojo used he/him pronouns.

[Caerulea]

Think Shojo used he/him pronouns.

Whoops. I was referring to the entire sapphire guard upper echelons, and forgot it consisted entirely of Shojo.

[hamishspence]

Whoops. I was referring to the entire sapphire guard upper echelons, and forgot it consisted entirely of Shojo.

I could see the "gate blowing up alarm" triggering the following sequence:




Shojo summons Sangwaan (maybe one or two other diviners as well) and Miko. Maybe even O-Chul as third in command?. Tells them the Dorukan Gate has been destroyed.

Shojo has Sangwaan scry out Dorukan's Gate. She sees rubble.

Shojo asks Sangwaan who blew up the gate. She says "The Order of the Stick". Shojo says "Then they will be arrested, put on trial, and executed (or killed if they resist arrest). But first we have to find them".

Shojo asks her to summon a Celestial. Eugene answers the summons.

Shojo questions Eugene in private (maybe asking everyone else to leave the room for a minute, with Eugene being already in disguise as a Celestial and dropping the disguise the moment they're alone.)

Shojo calls Miko back. Says "Redmountain gate has been destroyed, (which Miko already knows) You know what to do."

Miko says "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible."

Shojo says "Actually, my cat says try and take them alive if possible."

Miko says "As your cat wishes, if possible" and leaves.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not to mention that he has the ghost of a divination-focused wizard helping him, too, and Eugene is extremely familiar with Roy.

Actually, Eugene was an illusionist who barred Divination.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, Eugene was an illusionist who barred Divination.

I didn't think you could bar Divination in 3.0 or 3.5.

[Rogar Demonblud]

*shrugs*

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.

[hamishspence]

I didn't think you could bar Divination in 3.0 or 3.5.

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.

You can't in 3.5. You can in 3.0. If you're an illusionist, and you're barring Divination, you must also bar Necromancy.

[zimmerwald1915]

*shrugs*

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.

Welp, time to re-read the thing.

[Fyraltari]

Shojo didn't want the Order to have a choice. Arresting them and rigging them a trial gave him leverage: if they don't obey him, he'll have them rejudged with an actual jury.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You can't in 3.5. You can in 3.0. If you're an illusionist, and you're barring Divination, you must also bar Necromancy.

Ah, so we have another 3E joke in the prequel.

[Mike Havran]

I think Grey Wolf's interpretation is the most likely. Powerful wizards with Teleport (Shojo later specified the Wizard Guy is his best wizard) are both valuable and frail. I wouldn't send such an asset into the blind, especially since the adventurers were, at that point, seen as loose cannons at best. Miko, on the other hand, was a master of combat.

[Elvensilver]

There are a lot of reasons, why Miko is better suited to get unwilling people back than a wizard. But maybe the order couldn't be found magically, only be identified?

There was the spell Cloister. Xykon did know how do cast it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html, and after the dungeon blew up, the order was probably (given that they stayed a few days) for some time shielded from any divination. Probably even Sangwoon couldn't scry them, that is probably why they had to get a "celestial" summoned to get clarifications on the gate blowing up.

Even though in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html, Miko states that the AG-Diviners wouldn't make mistakes, she never said that these diviners scried on the order, just that their magic indicates that the order is to blame. Which coincidently could also mean, that a certain celestial being of pure law and good might have told them after an inquiry.
If they only knew who did it and not where they went afterwards; it makes sense to send a paladin that can take care of herself, has a point in track (and gets out of everyones hair), instead of a squishy wizard to track and bring back the order.

[hamishspence]

Probably even Sangwoon couldn't scry them, that is probably why they had to get a "celestial" summoned to get clarifications on the gate blowing up.

There was definitely a scrying sensor:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

but it's possible it wasn't sending them back any information, like here with a later Cloister:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html

[Lacuna Caster]

There are a lot of reasons, why Miko is better suited to get unwilling people back than a wizard...

...But why the assumption that it has to be one or the other? High-level wizards can cast teleport several times a day and bring several passengers. High-level clerics can cast wind walk several times a day with similar effects. If he really wanted to, Shojo could have had a small army tracking down the Order in less than 24 hours. Or he could have his transport divisions drop off Miko, or any other team of whatever size and composition he wished, relatively close to the ruins.

Shojo didn't want the Order to have a choice. Arresting them and rigging them a trial gave him leverage: if they don't obey him, he'll have them rejudged with an actual jury.

You only need leverage to get people to do things they don't want to do. Roy actively wants to destroy Xykon. The only reason he needed leverage over Roy in the first place was because he pissed him off through forcing the arrest.