Results 61 to 90 of 787
-
2018-12-22, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
But nobody intends it as an insult, is my point. If it makes you more comfortable I can avoid using it, but my original point was that this doesn't describe Shojo's behaviour.
All I'm saying is that it makes sense for Shojo to be interested in having a way to force the Order to obey him.Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2018-12-22 at 07:18 PM.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-22, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2017
- Location
- France
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
(EDIT: People using mental illnesses to refer tordinary behaviour ("I like to have my things in order, I have such an OCD") is a pet peeve of mine. But you do agree that Shojo is manipulative, right?)
So you're not complaining that he had the Order arrested? Just on how he did? The wizard was on a field research trip in the demiplane of toothpaste or something. There. Explained.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-12-22 at 07:21 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
-
2018-12-22, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Well, speaking personally I would have focused on locating Xykon ASAP with every resource at my disposal and sorted out the legal niceties later. But even if you wave away the wizard, you also need to wave away the High Priest of the Twelve, and any other amenable clerics in the city who could cast Wind Walk. (Besides, with Sending spells, you can always contact the wizard and call him back, even on other planes.)
Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-22, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
- Location
- six feet under
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
Extended Signature.
I'm not not a humanoid. Come not not be one too.
Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!
she/her
-
2018-12-22, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
That if Shojo is supposed to be some kind of CG machiavellian puppetmaster who retains absolute control over all branches of government despite everyone thinking he's crazy, then I expect him to be really, really, crazily smart. His actual record of behaviour does not live up to this standard. In fact, it's so bafflingly poor that I have to consider it a kind of plot hole, particularly when any of the people around him could easily ask any of the same questions.
I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly diplomatic mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-22, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Shojo isn't allowed to send the Sapphire Guard out unless he can prove an imminent threat to his specific gate. Hence involving the Order: he can send them out to gather information and then, if it turns out that Xykon is instead heading to, say, Gerard's gate, they can head up there first, warn the defenders and assist in the defense. I believe he also thought he could convince the paladins to break their oath if the threat to the other gates was sufficiently large, but that was never a major part of his plan.
Miko is not on a diplomatic mission, she's on a mission to capture prisoners. And as she quite handily defeats the order twice, i'd say that Shojo's assessment of her capabilities was spot on. And theres no specific reason she needs to teleport instead of walk.Last edited by Keltest; 2018-12-22 at 09:54 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2018-12-22, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Dude, I'll help you out a bit, with some of your concerns:
Teleport and Future Vision are plot-breaking powers, if you really take the time to break things down and follow their logical implications down to the ground.
I can't really think of any story where either power is readily available to more than one person and the story universe makes perfect sense (except maybe stories which are entirely built around these powers, maybe?
So, basically any storyteller uses these as plot-device pretty much only when they see fit. Sometimes they build in good excuses for the readily appearant plotholes that are caused by the availability of these powers, sometimes they build in poor excuses, and most times they just don't bother at all.
My point is, if these powers exist in a story, don't poke the story universe's logic too hard, or you will be dissappointed 99,9% of stories.
And, for the record, the Giant is actually good at using these powers in a way and shape that the huge plot holes are at least not screaming into your face. Yes, you find them after thinking, but at least for me, the story was fluent enough on the first few reads that I didn't stop to wonder WTF the characters didn't do X or Y. But, of course, YMMV depending on your intellect and your way of reading stories.Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
-
2018-12-22, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Then stop thinking he was supposed to be that.
Nobody except you has ever called him a machiavellian puppet master. The author himself said that Shojo's actions crippled Azure City and it became apparent as soon as Shojo died. Everything fits perfectly if you see him as barely holding everything together with spit and baling wire.
I dunno about you, but when I hear that all the weight has shifted to a single pillar that later collapsed, my first thought isn't "but that was supposedly the single strongest pillar known to man, plot hole, PLOT HOLE!"Last edited by Peelee; 2018-12-22 at 10:19 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2018-12-22, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Gender
-
2018-12-24, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Except that's not what's described as the likely trajectory of Azure City absent the invasion or Miko's regicide. According to the author, Shojo brought decades of prosperity and would ordinarily have been succeeded by Hinjo in an orderly fashion who would have gone on to reform the system. And I think you pretty much have to be a machiavellian puppet-master in order to control a government without that government ever noticing who's really in control.
Keltest, I am awed by your ability to retain obscure information.
If you're arguing that the vast majority of readers aren't ever going to notice this hole, you're probably right. And if you want to argue that the story has other virtues and/or that the minority of readers who ever notice won't care much, you're... also probably right. But this kind of forumite nit-picking seems to be perfectly fine when it comes to other franchises, so I'm not sure why pointing it out within OOTS meets with such prodigious resistance.Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-24, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
- Location
- six feet under
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
He is explicitly in control of the government. He doesn't need to be brilliant to act like a fool, and then decree stuff. He is rather intelligent, and good at politics and the logistics of managing Azure city. He crippled Azure city in the sense that he undermined the political system, and built something that would be a lot of work to hold together absent him.
Would you mind putting your response here, so I don't have to read though a massive wall of text in another 15 page thread to understand what you mean.
Because it is not a plot hole.Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
Extended Signature.
I'm not not a humanoid. Come not not be one too.
Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!
she/her
-
2018-12-24, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2018-12-24, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Fine, but in that case the likely scenario is not that Hinjo succeeds in an orderly manner and reforms the system. The conceivable scenario is that Shojo lives long enough to educate/corrupt Hinjo so that he's capable of governing in a similar manner, but it's equally likely that Shojo would die of old age first or Hinjo would just refuse to govern that way, and then he's vulnerable to coups and assassinations on account of not being able to run the government.
Would you mind putting your response here, so I don't have to read though a massive wall of text in another 15 page thread to understand what you mean.Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-24, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
As a rule of thumb "the author was wrong/lying" is not a convincing argument. Hinjo's position was substantially weakened by the impending invasion. Barring that, his personal soldiers (and, possibly, the Sapphire Guard, since internal strife threatens the Gate) would be able to subdue any nobles who rebelled, and his personal power provides him with significantly more protection against assassination than Shojo had.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2018-12-24, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2018-12-24, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Peelee was the one arguing that Shojo was clearly not a high-Int machiavellian puppetmaster because his actions manifestly led to disaster for his city. I pointed out that the author himself argued to the contrary- that Shojo's actions only led to disaster due to highly specific circumstances which he could not reasonably foresee, and that his reign was otherwise beneficial and would have led to a smooth transition of power.
I don't actually agree with this analysis, but if Peelee is the one who wants to take the author at his word, then he's the one who needs to retract his argument.
(Also, given that I have an exceedingly dim opinion of the Twelve Gods' track-record of moral evaluations, that comparison doesn't much bother me.)Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-24, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Nowhere does Rich say "yes, Shojo was clearly a masterful manipulator who had everybody dancing to exactly his tune." He tricked the nobles into fighting with each other instead of him, and had some handy leverage on the Order almost literally fall into his lap. That's it. Anything to the effect that Shojo was personally controlling every aspect of Azurite society is entirely of your own construction.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2018-12-24, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Again, no it isn't. The author describes Shojo spending years steadily kneecapping every branch of government so that it was directly dependent on his personal scheming in order to function. Again, I'm not sure how that could possibly work, but yes, canonically, Shojo had a great many people dancing to exactly his tune.
All of this, by the way, is predicated on the false assumption that Shojo needs to be some kind of super-genius to spot the flaws with something analogous to this scenario-
Roy learns that Julia has been kidnapped by the Linear Guild. His reaction is to send Belkar- and only Belkar, his least dependable, most bloodthirsty follower- to Cliffport, on horseback, to negotiate a ransom agreement- he should 'try hard' to avoid bloodshed. But he doesn't actually tell Belkar why Julia was kidnapped, or exactly where to find the kidnappers, or any of the other pieces of relevant information he might share, because... something something paranoia.
Assume that Roy has access to teleport spells, and Belkar is level 16 and actually loyal to Roy. Now, what component of this plan makes even a particle of sense?Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-24, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2018-12-24, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
-
2018-12-24, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
- Location
- six feet under
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
Extended Signature.
I'm not not a humanoid. Come not not be one too.
Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!
she/her
-
2018-12-24, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
-
2018-12-24, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Well I'm just glad we've graduated from "the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna" to "the hole doesn't matter Lacuna", "we already know about the hole, Lacuna", and "why are you so fixated on the hole, Lacuna". You know, baby steps.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
-
2018-12-24, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
- Location
- six feet under
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
Extended Signature.
I'm not not a humanoid. Come not not be one too.
Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!
she/her
-
2018-12-24, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Last edited by Dion; 2018-12-24 at 11:33 PM.
-
2018-12-24, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
That anyone actually read what you (or Dion; I'm not quite clear on who he's insulting specifically today) posted as seriously conceding that his imagined plot hole exists is boggling, though inability to understand figurative speech might account for much of his difficulties.
Last edited by Kish; 2018-12-24 at 11:46 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2018-12-24, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
Re: accounting for difficulties, my money remains on "Lacuna is obsessed with picking holes in the Azure City part of the story-- often without regard to the actual text of the comic, or based in interpretations and assumptions no one else shares-- because he believes that convincing people that the whole thing was just written wrong will somehow validate his feelings that Miko was treated unfairly by the narrative."
Last edited by Ruck; 2018-12-24 at 11:57 PM.
-
2018-12-25, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
The ironic thing here is that I'd agree with "the plot presents Shojo considerably more negatively than the author seems to have meant it to." But that doesn't make it internally inconsistent, nor does it mean it doesn't work for the story, considering Shojo and Miko were both relatively minor characters, only appearing in two volumes (and very briefly at the end of another). Even Lacuna's paraphrase contradicts what he's using it to argue: You cannot end a case that the system is ideal as-is with "...reform the system."
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2018-12-25, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Gender
Re: Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?
-
2018-12-25, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015