Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Lacuna Caster]

And here you go assuming motivations that they don't have again. Yes, its petty. No, they aren't in any particular hurry. Its not a plot hole that they aren't acting in the most efficient manner possible.

No no no. The problem here isn't a failure to act in the most efficient manner possible. The problem is that pretty much every participant is simultaneously acting in maximally inefficient ways.

I mean, why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?

Also, stop saying you've raised these points before. I don't care. Im not reading them. If you cant be bothered to explain something without forcing people to navigate the entire 15 page argument in another thread...

Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts. It is not my fault that you seem to default to long-discredited arguments whenever a new thread comes up.

And I'm not so much interested in refuting your arguments as I am in pointing out what a detriment to the forum your obsession and thread-jacking are.

And, what a surprise, no actual attempt to address the substance of my arguments in this thread.

[Keltest]

No no no. The problem here isn't a failure to act in the most efficient manner possible. The problem is that pretty much every participant is simultaneously acting in maximally inefficient ways.

I mean, why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?


Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts. It is not my fault that you seem to default to long-discredited arguments whenever a new thread comes up.


And, what a surprise, no actual attempt to address the substance of my arguments in this thread.

That you insist you have discredited them does not mean they are. Nobody brings up that it isn't efficient because nobody cares. It really is that simple. They aren't bothered by it. Miko does not feel the compulsive need to go teleporting across three continents smiting people the diviners identify for her. Shojo does not feel the need to send her out doing so. O-chul does not feel the need to expedite her return from her mission. Why do you need it to be more complicated than that? This isn't a plot hole, its just characters not behaving in the manner you want them to.

[Lacuna Caster]

That you insist you have discredited them does not mean they are. Nobody brings up that it isn't efficient because nobody cares...

Yes, because a paladin organisation that exists for the express purpose of safeguarding the fabric of reality doesn't care about dealing efficiently with threats to the fabric of reality. On top of all the obvious reasons for why literally anyone alive would be expected to care, such as self-preservation.

[Keltest]

Yes, because a paladin organisation that exists for the express purpose of safeguarding the fabric of reality doesn't care about dealing efficiently with threats to the fabric of reality. On top of all the obvious reasons for why literally anyone alive would be expected to care, such as self-preservation.

The damage is already done. The point is to bring them for trial for crimes they have allegedly committed, not act to prevent them from doing it further. Besides which, they cant intercept threats to the other gate, and obviously if the Order is going to the Azure City gate next (assuming some bizarre alternate reality where their harm is done from malice rather than ignorance) then theres still no need for haste, because theyre making their own way there, and its just more time for them to prepare.

[Lacuna Caster]

The damage is already done. The point is to bring them for trial for crimes they have allegedly committed, not act to prevent them from doing it further. Besides which, they cant intercept threats to the other gate...

First of all, they absolutely can prevent them from threatening other Gates, by capturing or killing whoever is responsible for threatening the previous Gates. (Which Shojo knows to be Xykon and/or Redcloak, but doesn't share the information.) Secondly, the goal of capturing the Order for trial is still much easier if the paladins just teleport to their last known location, which they could totally have done.

And please don't argue (A) the oaths would get in they way, because they don't, or (B) that time was not a factor, because it clearly was. This was literally one page ago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to acknowledge this.

[The Pilgrim]

The funny thing about Lacuna Caster's whole "why didn't Shojo assign more resources to this mission", is that the answer is as simple as "because those resources were compromised performing some other mission".

[Keltest]

First of all, they absolutely can prevent them from threatening other Gates, by capturing or killing whoever is responsible for threatening the previous Gates. (Which Shojo knows to be Xykon and/or Redcloak, but doesn't share the information.) Secondly, the goal of capturing the Order for trial is still much easier if the paladins just teleport to their last known location, which they could totally have done.

And please don't argue (A) the oaths would get in they way, because they don't, or (B) that time was not a factor, because it clearly was. This was literally one page ago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to acknowledge this.

That argument was wrong then and its wrong now. Because, again, its based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. The oath explicitly gets in the way. That's why theyre sending the Order out: either to prove Xykon is an imminent threat to Azure City so the paladins can act, or to find out which other gate he is going to so the Order can warn them and act as reinforcements. This is literally the entire point of involving the Order at all.

As for how, presumably she could use the class feature that explicitly gives her a faster means of transport than just by walking.

If I seem frustrated, its because I am. I know for a fact ive said this before, and you've ignored it or handwaved it away.

[Lacuna Caster]

The funny thing about Lacuna Caster's whole "why didn't Shojo assign more resources to this mission", is that the answer is as simple as "because those resources were compromised performing some other mission".

What other mission could possibly be more important? Isn't this expressly what the entire Sapphire Guard exists to do? Isn't the fate of reality itself at stake? This is just a variant on the 'no-one cares' argument, and it's just as nonsensical, leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.

That argument was wrong then and its wrong now. Because, again, its based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. The oath explicitly gets in the way... ...This is literally the entire point of involving the Order at all.

Yes, and my point is that this rationale makes no sense.

Xykon and Redcloak were not, to their knowledge, at any of the remaining Gates. Their last known location was a Gate which had already been destroyed. So why would their Oath not to approach the remaining Gates obstruct them from trying to track down Xykon and Redcloak from their last known location?

If the paladins actually knew that Xykon and Redcloak were going after the other gates, that would be precisely the circumstance where their Oaths do not restrict them. Getting the evidence needed to ensure his paladins know this was the whole idea.

[The Pilgrim]

What other mission could possibly be more important?

Protecting his own City and his own Gate?

leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.

I'm pretty sure Shojo did actually make a sending. In particular, he sent Miko. Who, unlike the sending spell, guarantees to drag back to you the persons you need dragged back to you, in the event that they refuse to comply to your request.

[Keltest]

What other mission could possibly be more important? Isn't this expressly what the entire Sapphire Guard exists to do? Isn't the fate of reality itself at stake? This is just a variant on the 'no-one cares' argument, and it's just as nonsensical, leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.


Yes, and my point is that this rationale makes no sense.

The oath is to not interfere in their defenses. Preemptively hunting down threats to other gates, especially ones on other continents, violates the oath.

This is spelled out in the comic, dude.

Also, while Shojo could have made contact, he would have had no leverage to compel them to help him.

[Lacuna Caster]

Protecting his own City and his own Gate?

Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.

The oath is to not interfere in their defenses. Preemptively hunting down threats to other gates, especially ones on other continents, violates the oath...

Keltest, by this logic, Miko herself could not have been sent to arrest the Order (who were, after all, believed by Miko to be just such a threat). Do you have any idea just how warped this entire line of argument is?

[Keltest]

Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.


Keltest, by this logic, Miko herself could not have been sent to arrest the Order (who were, after all, believed by Miko to be just such a threat). Do you have any idea just how warped this entire line of argument is?

The Order is not an active threat to the existing gates, and the trial is for actions already done, not ones planned for the future. Miko never says that the Order is being arrested for their active danger to the other gates, nor indeed is any mention of them made until they arrive in Azure City.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Order is not an active threat to the existing gates, and the trial is for actions already done, not ones planned for the future. Miko never says that the Order is being arrested for their active danger to the other gates, nor indeed is any mention of them made until they arrive in Azure City.

No. Miko explicitly states they are under arrest for endangering the fabric of reality by destroying the Redmountain Gate.

She has no reason to believe beforehand that the Order weren't a threat to other Gates, but even if she did believe this, why couldn't she or Shojo argue that they don't strictly know that Xykon was a threat to the other Gates, thereby allowing the paladins to chase him?

This is my whole point, Keltest. If they know Xykon is a threat to the Gates, they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath. If they don't know this, then the Oath doesn't stop them from chasing him. Either way, the oath is not an obstacle.

[The Pilgrim]

Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.

Why go out looking for said Lich?

The Lich, apparently, was aiming for the Gates. Shojo was in charge of the defense of one of those gates. Entrenching in and confronting the Lich with the full advantage of Azure City's defenses looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone. Checking the other Gates to raise the alarm and ensure they are properly defended looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone. Having someone check on the Lich so you know were he will strike next and send reinforcements looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone.

[Keltest]

No. Miko explicitly states they are under arrest for endangering the fabric of reality by destroying the Redmountain Gate.

She has no reason to believe beforehand that the Order weren't a threat to other Gates, but even if she did believe this, why couldn't she or Shojo argue that they don't strictly know that Xykon was a threat to the other Gates, thereby allowing the paladins to chase him?

This is my whole point, Keltest. If they know Xykon is a threat to the Gates, they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath. If they don't know this, then the Oath doesn't stop them from chasing him. Either way, the oath is not an obstacle.

The Sapphire Guard are not Shojo's personal intercontinental hit squad. Without the gates he has no authority to send them out to other continents or countries, and especially not to assassinate people.

[Lacuna Caster]

Why go out looking for said Lich?

Because he's currently vulnerable while regenerating, and even if you don't catch him with his pants down, you might just be able to scout his position and learn he's... I don't know, in command of a vast hobgoblin army and working with the Crimson Mantle, let's say. If you knew what you'd learn from scouting, you wouldn't need to do the scouting. That's... what scouting's for.

The Lich, apparently, was aiming for the Gates. Shojo was in charge of the defense of one of those gates. Entrenching in and confronting the Lich with the full advantage of Azure City's defenses looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone...

Paladin Blues explicitly states that nobody, including Roy or Shojo, expected that Xykon would actually move on Azure City, so you can't use this to explain Shojo's less-than-proactive stance here. And again, if you can actually show that Xykon was aiming for the Gates, you can waive the paladins' Oath and use them to check on other Gates, send reinforcements, or whatever. Either way, this is all a perfectly reasonable discussion for Shojo to be having with his paladins that doesn't require concealing Xykon's survival at all. Just telling them Xykon was alive doesn't breach the Oath one way or the other.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Sapphire Guard are not Shojo's personal intercontinental hit squad. Without the gates he has no authority to send them out to other continents or countries, and especially not to assassinate people.

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.

[Dion]

Sure, and they all have the same tenor as my exchanges with Keltest and Hamish. "Lacuna is wrong because X". "Actually, X is false because Y and also Z". "Y is wrong because W, Lacuna". "W is wrong because J, and you still haven't addressed Z."

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?

Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.

[Keltest]

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.

Going off to fight non-gate-related threats weakens the defenses of the Azure City gate. It is, again, specifically the fact that the Order is involved with the gates without being an active threat that allows Shojo to go after them. Yes, its shaky logic, and its called out as being such, but its good enough to justify sending Miko after them, and that's all it needs to do. The trial is meant to be lost, they don't need an ironclad case against the Order, just one superficially strong enough to justify grabbing them in the first place.

Also, Miko is a samurai in the court of Shojo, which carries with it certain political duties and responsibilities, such as not entering a foreign state and making executive decisions about whether somebody needs killing.

[The Pilgrim]

Because he's currently vulnerable while regenerating, and even if you don't catch him with his pants down, you might just be able to scout his position and learn he's... I don't know, in command of a vast hobgoblin army and working with the Crimson Mantle, let's say. If you knew what you'd learn from scouting, you wouldn't need to do the scouting. That's... what scouting's for.

A Lich regenerates in 1d10 days after it's destroyed. That means Shojo only had 1 to 10 days to locate him and launch a strike against him while he is vulnerable. Assuming Shojo knew the mechanics behind Lich Regeneration. Which is a pretty obscure information given that Lirian, an epic level elven Druid, knew very little about the mechanics behind the Lich creature template.

For all we know, Shojo didn't know that it takes time for a Lich to regenerate, and may have assumed the Lich regenerated instantly, or in a time span too short for him to gather the resources to locate him and launch a strike. A fair assumption, given that Xykon would have regenerated the next morning if rolled an "1".

Maybe he attempted to scry on Xykon and failed. Maybe because of the Cloister's effect. Or maybe because Xykon resisted the scrying. It requires a Will Save, which the Sorcerer Class gets prime bonus for. Xykon has also +2 Wisdom score modifier from the Lich template. He would also get at least a +5 to the save given that Shojo only had second-hand information about him and had no picture or description of him that would allow to tell Xykon from any other human skeleton, had no possesion that belonged to Xykon, and had no body part of him.

Scouting on him? sure, a good idea. That's part of what he wanted the Order for. Why didn't him use his own paladins? Already tried that on the remainings of Lirian's Gate and failed, Shojo didn't considers his paladins to be very good at gathering information.

Paladin Blues explicitly states that nobody, including Roy or Shojo, expected that Xykon would actually move on Azure City, so you can't use this to explain Shojo's less-than-proactive stance here.

Actually, the fact that Shojo didn't expect Xykon to move on Azure City explains very well why he felt in no hurry to expend too many personal resources on dealing with him.

[Dion]

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order.

They sent Miko to deliver a letter to the dwarves, too.

I think Rich should write a 750 page manual on “bizarre and unusual rules that govern the use of Azure city and sapphire guard resources, and exactly when Miko is acting as a paladin of the sapphire guard, vs working as an agent of the Azure city government, vs working as a member of Shojo’s personal family.”

And I would not buy that book.

[Caerulea]

Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts.

Hey, can we address what the person is saying in this thread, rather quote something addressing something similar that somebody else said 14 years ago? Thanks. Quotations are all well and good, but it would take less effort to type out a response that is perfectly applicable to what the person is saying right now

they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath.

Waiving their Oath is not a thing that Paladins do. They were founded on "only the word of a paladin is unbreakable." They don't just decide to forgot about that sacred vow that they made.

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.

The reason that she was sent after the Order was because they already destroyed one of the gates. The Oath not to interfere does not apparently cover scenarios in which the people who have already destroyed a gate need to be punished.

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?


Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.

(Lacuna, if I misunderstood you, correct me.)
As far as I understand it, Lacuna is arguing that the way that the Saphire Guard acted during No Cure for the Paliden Blues and War & XPs was contradictory to their, and in particular Shojo's, characterisation. The crux of their argument is that, after Shojo was informed by his diviners that The Order of the Stick was responsible, and formed the plan with Eugene to hire them to attack Xykon, he should have used whatever magics were at his disposal to send a team of highly skilled paladins to arrest them and drag them back within the hour. That he did not, when any intelligent person would have done so, is declared to be the plot hole in the story.


I, and many others, disagree with Lacuna about the existence of the supposed plot hole. I would first like to establish a likely timeline of events.

1. The Sapphire guard is alerted (via some mechanism like the one in Girad's pyramid or the diviners) that the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed. They determine via magic that The Order of the Stick is the ones who destroyed the gate (notice in strip 203 Miko attributes the information to the Saphire guards diviners rather than a celestial being. See also, strip 271, panel 2).
2. Clerics of the Sapphire Guard summon a "celestial being" (Eugene in disguise) to ask advice. He presumably confirms that The Order of the Stick are responsible. He later talks to Shojo alone, and they formulate the plan of having The Order investigate the state of the other gates and alert the defenders to the risks. They would also presumably help stop Xykon and Redcloak's attack, and hopefully kill them. (I personally believe that Eugene focused on sharing information about Xykon, rather than Redcloak, because he really only cares about Julia and whether Xykon is dead.)
3. As per the laws of the Sapphire Guard, a warrent for the arrest of The Order of the Stick is issued. Shojo then send Miko on a long journey to retrieve them. The paladins are all happy because Miko is out of their hair for the moment.
4. Miko attacks them, wins, and drags them back to Azure City where they are acquited and Shojo offers them a job.

It is clear that the paladins would like The Order to stand trial, a possible sentence of which is death. Therefore, none of them would be okay with sending them advance warning that they will be arrested, and giving them time to run off or prepare a defense. Thus, sending to Roy would not be politicly feasible. So, why didn't Shojo teleport somebody to arrest The Order? Why didn't he send a group? Why send Miko instead of somebody nicer?


Because that wouldn't make sense to the Sapphire Guard. They don't feel the need to move quickly, because the criminals are not activily threatening the nature of reality anymore, they did in the past. Even if they were, that would fall to the defenders of the other gates, with which the Oath would interfere. Miko was sent because she was the strongest paladin, and the Sapphire Guard wanted to arrest The Order of the Stick, probably by force. Shojo figured that Miko was strong enough, and she was. The rest of the Sapphire Guard also wanted her not in Azure city, and didn't want to go on a long journey with her.


With regards to saving time: maybe the Wizard was busy. Maybe they didn't want to trust a task so closely tied to state secrets with a drunkard. Maybe one of a thousand other reasons. Retrieving The Order was not top priority. You may think it should have been, but Shojo and the paladins clearly did not. Shojo isn't an idiot in this scenerio, he just has different priorities and has to deal with the Sapphire Guard.


With regards to sending out a strike team of paladins to attack Redcloak and Xykon, whose to say that didn't happen? Maybe it did, and was ineffective. Maybe it didn't, because they judged that fortification was a better strategy. Maybe they were waiting to find out more from The Order. Maybe the Oath interfered (I think this is most likely). If I can come up with plenty of reasonable explanations that make sense within the story, the lack of an in story explanation is not a plot hole.
Edit: also what The Pilgrim said.

[Kish]

The expression was "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." "Only the oath of an X is unbreakable" would be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

I think, based on War and XPs commentary if nothing else, that there's an excellent chance the paladins would have seen the need for some level of flexibility, had Shojo chosen to deal honestly with them. He didn't. That was a failing in Shojo. I am 99% certain it was entirely intended to be a failing in Shojo.

Lacuna's problem is that he doesn't acknowledge the concept of characters having author-intended failings--at all, as far as I can tell. This leaves him pointing out the non-controversial fact that Shojo did not act as a perfectly rational actor whose sole goal was defeating the main villain of the overall story he's in, and jumping straight from there, in a leap that Miko herself would balk at, to LOOK MASSIVE PLOT HOLE, combined with incomprehension when people acknowledge the first (that Shojo did not act as a perfectly rational actor whose sole goal was defeating the main villain of the overall story he's in) and yet continue to deny that this is a plot hole.

[Ruck]

The expression was "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." "Only the oath of an X is unbreakable" would be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

Either way-- if I'm understanding this correctly, the latest "plot hole" is that the order of paladins wouldn't break their oath, and/or that their paranoid, mistrusting leader wouldn't make plans contingent on believing they would do so?

EDIT: Just saw this that I'd forgotten to answer:

Yup - IMO, The Giant saying that Miko "came out ahead of the curve"

Miko was an antagonist. By the universal scale of How Antagonists Are Treated by the Stories They're In, I think she came out pretty much ahead of the curve.

in a thread with that very title, appears to be the statement Lacuna wants shot down.

Probably would be better served, and even be a better use of time, following this part of the post, then:

if you'd have preferred another narrative for the character, go off and write fanfiction or something.

[Peelee]

LC has written Miko fanfic, IIRC. And yet.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, this is clearly gonna take a while.

Hey, can we address what the person is saying in this thread, rather quote something addressing something similar that somebody else said 14 years ago...

No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.

Waiving their Oath is not a thing that Paladins do. They were founded on "only the word of a paladin is unbreakable." They don't just decide to forgot about that sacred vow that they made...

...Is an excuse I might consider legitimate if Shojo had actually told his paladins about the existence of Xykon (and perhaps Redcloak, who is kinda significant) in the first place, and then had that discussion, and been told point-blank by his paladins that no, they weren't going to budge.

No such discussion took place. What Shojo mentions is that his paladins wouldn't consider checking on the other Gates 'without concrete evidence' of a threat to them... such as, I don't know, the testimony of a Being of Pure Law and Good telling them the Crimson Mantle helped to capture Dorukan's Keep. Sounds like a red flag to me, no pun intended.

Frankly, I find it completely incredible that the paladins would be so intransigent as to refuse to waive the Oath under those circumstances, because they've also sworn a bunch of other Oaths- like obeying their lord, punishing the wicked and protecting the innocent- which all make a pretty strong case for chasing after Xykon and preventing universal destruction regardless. And if you caught Xykon before he arrived at another Gate, there's also no problem with the Oath.

The reason that she was sent after the Order was because they already destroyed one of the gates. The Oath not to interfere does not apparently cover scenarios in which the people who have already destroyed a gate need to be punished.

This is not the argument that Keltest was making. He was asserting that the Guard are not Shojo's personal international hit squad, when in fact that is precisely how Miko was effectively deployed. The Oath doesn't, to my knowledge, say anything about the sanctity of secular law, nor would secular law grant any clear protection to Xykon and Redcloak, in the event that they were even in a territory where secular law applied.

(Now, sure, I could imagine an interesting scenario where the paladins find out Xykon/RC are taking refuge in the hobgoblin kingdom they were trying to avoid war with not so long ago, and they could have a debate about how or whether to try expunging them without provoking another war, or whether war was inevitable at that point, whether Xykon has already regenerated enough to be a major threat, etc etc etc. But none of this ever happens, so you can't claim that Shojo was thinking along these lines or had any good and sufficient reason to do so.)

It is clear that the paladins would like The Order to stand trial, a possible sentence of which is death. Therefore, none of them would be okay with sending them advance warning that they will be arrested, and giving them time to run off or prepare a defense...

Again, none of this is a problem if Shojo just has Eugene/the BoPLaG explain who the Order actually are and what they were doing. Which is precisely what he was summoned for in the first place.

Nor does Shojo require his paladins' approval in order to use a Sending spell, given he was able to arrange for the Mark of Justice to be cast by a high-level cleric without their knowledge or consent, and has high-level wizards at his disposal who don't work for the Guard and also go on missions without their knowledge or consent. It is ridiculous to assert that he couldn't arrange for a simple spell to be cast given the resources at his disposal.

With regards to saving time: maybe the Wizard was busy. Maybe they didn't want to trust a task so closely tied to state secrets with a drunkard. Maybe one of a thousand other reasons. Retrieving The Order was not top priority. You may think it should have been...

Oh, I don't think retrieving the Order should have been top priority at all. I think finding (and ideally destroying) Xykon and Redcloak was the most important thing. All of this was covered before, Caerulea. In this thread.

Well, speaking personally I would have focused on locating Xykon ASAP with every resource at my disposal and sorted out the legal niceties later. But even if you wave away the wizard, you also need to wave away the High Priest of the Twelve, and any other amenable clerics in the city who could cast Wind Walk. (Besides, with Sending spells, you can always contact the wizard and call him back, even on other planes.)

Right, but doesn't it make both Shojo and the Guard at large look incredibly petty if they'd rather risk universal destruction than suck it up and work with Miko for a few days? Because if you teleport (or use wind walk, which you also said nothing to address), it only has to be a few days. And nobody had to explain the Big Secret Mission to Shojo's wizard in order for Roy to use him for similar purposes (even though Roy winds up blabbing it anyway.) So why is it different for Miko?

And this point was covered in another thread-

With regards to sending out a strike team of paladins to attack Redcloak and Xykon, whose to say that didn't happen?

Because there's no end to this. You can't go around inventing huge chunks of the narrative and then pretend that the actual absence of this connective tissue is a virtue of the story.

I'm not going to assume that Shojo dispatched another team after Xykon. Aside from never being mentioned, that's the mission you send Miko on, while Hinjo or O-Chul go after the Order.

[Keltest]

Okay, this is clearly gonna take a while.


No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.


...Is an excuse I might consider legitimate if Shojo had actually told his paladins about the existence of Xykon (and perhaps Redcloak, who is kinda significant) in the first place, and then had that discussion, and been told point-blank by his paladins that no, they weren't going to budge.

No such discussion took place. What Shojo mentions is that his paladins wouldn't consider checking on the other Gates 'without concrete evidence' of a threat to them... such as, I don't know, the testimony of a Being of Pure Law and Good telling them the Crimson Mantle helped to capture Dorukan's Keep. Sounds like a red flag to me, no pun intended.

Frankly, I find it completely incredible that the paladins would be so intransigent as to refuse to waive the Oath under those circumstances, because they've also sworn a bunch of other Oaths- like obeying their lord, punishing the wicked and protecting the innocent- which all make a pretty strong case for chasing after Xykon and preventing universal destruction regardless. And if you caught Xykon before he arrived at another Gate, there's also no problem with the Oath.


This is not the argument that Keltest was making. He was asserting that the Guard are not Shojo's personal international hit squad, when in fact that is precisely how Miko was effectively deployed. The Oath doesn't, to my knowledge, say anything about the sanctity of secular law, nor would secular law grant any clear protection to Xykon and Redcloak, in the event that they were even in a territory where secular law applied.

(Now, sure, I could imagine an interesting scenario where the paladins find out Xykon/RC are taking refuge in the hobgoblin kingdom they were trying to avoid war with not so long ago, and they could have a debate about how or whether to try expunging them without provoking another war, or whether war was inevitable at that point, whether Xykon has already regenerated enough to be a major threat, etc etc etc. But none of this ever happens, so you can't claim that Shojo was thinking along these lines or had any good and sufficient reason to do so.)


Again, none of this is a problem if Shojo just has Eugene/the BoPLaG explain who the Order actually are and what they were doing. Which is precisely what he was summoned for in the first place.

Nor does Shojo require his paladins' approval in order to use a Sending spell, given he was able to arrange for the Mark of Justice to be cast by a high-level cleric without their knowledge or consent, and has high-level wizards at his disposal who don't work for the Guard and also go on missions without their knowledge or consent. It is ridiculous to assert that he couldn't arrange for a simple spell to be cast given the resources at his disposal.


Oh, I don't think retrieving the Order should have been top priority at all. I think finding (and ideally destroying) Xykon and Redcloak was the most important thing. All of this was covered before, Caerulea. In this thread.




And this point was covered in another thread-


Because there's no end to this. You can't go around inventing huge chunks of the narrative and then pretend that the actual absence of this connective tissue is a virtue of the story.

Lacuna, if you keep repeating yourself, its because you keep going back to the same flawed arguments.

For example: neither fetching the Order nor fighting Xykon is Shojo's highest priority. Governing and protecting the city, the gate and his lands are. He cannot and will not just drop everything to solve the plot. Your priorities as a reader are not his priorities, and fundamentally, you refuse to look at things from any other direction except "what would solve the plot quickest."

Shojo is not interested in solving the plot. He is interested in pushing his own agendas, of which "deal with Xykon" on a general level is not part of it. He only cares about Xykon because he has decided he is a threat to the gates, and he only cares to involve the order because they can be used to untie his hands to allow him to act more directly, with his preferred methods.

You say you don't believe that they don't care? Well, get over it. Its pretty obviously the case because its what is actually in the story. Shojo does not need to hold your priorities and it is not a plot hole that he cares about different things than you do.

And regarding quoting posts from earlier threads, besides generally being discourteous, if you expect us to go back and read them, then you should follow suit and skip to the part where we responded to those points already. Im definitely not going to go back and read arguments you made in threads that have been closed if you cant be bothered to do so.

[Mike Havran]

Why is there even an argument about Shojo acting against Xykon? Shojo knew nothing about him, he even admits as much in strip 290. He certainly doesn't have a proof that Xykon has an interest in the Gates. Heck, even Roy deciding to go to Oracle to carry out Shojo's assignment on the basis that the lich has some plan with other gates is an educated guess at best.

[Lacuna Caster]

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?

Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.

In essence, there is virtually no part of Shojo's decision to send Miko to kill/capture the Order, or the particular way that he hires them, that actually withstands scrutiny, given all the factors established about resources available to the Guard, the ostensible motives of everyone involved, and how magic works in the setting from later on in the same story.

I mean, if you just read the story up to strip #250 or so it's fine, generally speaking, because this is a world where teleport or commune or sending spells are just never referred to, and we don't have this parade of other paladins who are Better And Cooler And More Suited For Her Job Than Miko (tm). But the later story does have those things, and it just makes everything about Miko's introduction look increasingly crazy.

A Lich regenerates in 1d10 days after it's destroyed. That means Shojo only had 1 to 10 days to locate him and launch a strike against him while he is vulnerable. Assuming Shojo knew the mechanics behind Lich Regeneration...

Sure, it's not a strategy that's guaranteed to work (though if Shojo doesn't know the mechanics, he might as easily imagine that Xykon could take months to recover.) But that's not my point, which is that they might never have a better opportunity (and Eugene has been very bullish about using the most gung-ho imaginable, no-kill-like-overkill methods for taking on Xykon.)

Maybe he attempted to scry on Xykon and failed. Maybe because of the Cloister's effect... ...had no picture or description of him that would allow to tell Xykon from any other human skeleton, had no possesion that belonged to Xykon, and had no body part of him.

Sure, those are all possibilities. And one might imagine an interesting scenario where Sangwaan, for example, talks to Roy or Durkon about using Xykon's crown and their first-hand familiarity with the lich to boost their scrying chances. Or where they capture Nale and compel him to Send to Xykon under false pretences to get some information on his whereabouts. Or where they bring Hound Archons/Inevitables to do short-range scouting & scrying and just get lucky. Or where they dig up some goblin survivors from the rubble of the keep or it's vicinity who happen to know that Xykon had an escape tunnel. (Or where, for example, a sufficiently suspicious and overzealous paladin might just leap to the conclusion that of course the nearby hobgoblin kingdom must have been colluding with the Crimson Mantle all along, and that it must be her destiny to avert this threat! I know, pssh, that's crazy talk.) Given all the other witnesses they were evidently able to dig up, why should this be so hard?

The point is that none of these options are ever pursued. No attempt to track down Xykon and Redcloak this way is ever made, because Shojo couldn't be bothered his ass to tell either the paladins or the Order that they need to get on this ASAP.

Scouting on him? sure, a good idea. That's part of what he wanted the Order for...

Which would be logical, if (A) the Order didn't actually have even worse scouting skills than the paladins, (B) he actually got them on Xykon's trail immediately, and (C) this were mutually exclusive with working with the Guard. But they do, and he doesn't, and it isn't. What Shojo actually does is waste weeks of everyone's valuable time dragging the Order back for trial in the most needlessly hazardous and roundabout manner he could contrive short of outright ordering Miko to just kill them.

[Keltest]

Lacuna, for the umpteenth time, Shojo specifically calls out why he wont involve the paladins. This is explicitly stated in the comic. He doesn't believe that they would go after Xykon (or whatever force is destroying the gates) when he moves on the next gate without proof that the threat is overwhelming or some other extremely compelling reason to break their oath. Now maybe the paladins are more reasonable than that, but it doesn't matter, because Shojo doesn't think they are.

And please don't claim you've already addressed this, because the only things you've said to counter that are that he should have sent them anyway, or that you don't believe the oath would stop them. Neither of those are legitimate counters to the point that Shojo doesn't think he can involve the paladins.