Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Lacuna Caster]

The first time, they could have likely beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

And even the second time (which the description does make out to be a lot closer than you're saying), the fact that Durkon refused to contribute and only healed people slightly to stabilize them was a huge factor. If he'd been attacking or providing proper support, Miko would have lost easily. And, again, the misconception that led him to that position was pure luck.

Durkon being on the Order's side would likely have been pretty decisive, given he's a primary caster, yeah. Heck, just V's disintegrate spell could've finished the fight then and there, if he'd rolled a 20.

Shojo apparently being in the general habit of sending out Miko on dangerous solo missions in distant countries is pretty appalling, given that if she gets killed, captured or incapacitated, there's no-one to bring her back for resurrection or Send for help.

He can imply to the Sapphire Guard that his sending is intended to get Roy over for questioning. Remember, most of them are not Miko - they'll understand that a polite "we need you to come so we can discuss what happened in the Redmountain Hills" is reasonable, especially since they want to avoid letting information leak about the gate (and given Shojo's idiosyncrasies, him being polite to Roy isn't really weird or suspicious as long as he's ultimately getting him to come.)

Shojo's smart, he can thread the needle between a wording that would avoid scaring Roy off and a wording that the Paladins would accept. (Although there's no reason the Paladins actually need to know his precise wording - he can just tell them that he's sent Roy a message to summon him for questioning, and if Roy doesn't come then eventually they can go get him. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and there's no particular reason why he needs to tell Roy he risks being arrested if he comes. Most of the Paladins are smart enough to realize that using the carrot before the stick is fair.)

Keep in mind that Shojo is able to get away with "do this because my cat tell you to" most of the time. He doesn't have to give detailed rationales for his actions as long as they make broad sense. And "we've determined some broad information about Roy that we can use to convince him to come peacefully" is fairly reasonable.

Also, this. Though, really, I don't see any reason why Miko would have particular trouble with this approach- she was perfectly happy to play nice with the Order in most consequential respects as soon as she found out they weren't guilty of associated crimes by the Linear Guild... which is also relevant information that Shojo chose not to impart for some reason.

All Shojo/Eugene had to do here, really, was tell the honest-to-Gods truth- The OOTS blew up the gate, but the real long-term threat here is Xykon and Redcloak, so 'Imma gonna talk to this Greenhilt dude so we don't have any misunderstandings and maybe we can coordinate to solve the problem'.

Shojo doesn't believe the paladins would be willing to go after Xykon without proof that he was an imminent and overwhelming threat to the Azure City gate.

Shojo apparently sends his paladins out to deliver letters and scrub his cat's litter-box, which I think can be said to be a little below Miko's and O-Chul's pay grade. I don't see chasing after a mass-murdering lich sorceror being beneath their dignity.

And again, it's not just Shojo you have to explain here. Everyone around him who knows about the Gate's destruction and/or Xykon's survival needs to be nearly as dense.

[Keltest]

Shojo apparently sends his paladins out to deliver letters and scrub his cat's litter-box, which I think can be said to be a little below Miko's and O-Chul's pay grade. I don't see chasing after a mass-murdering lich sorceror being beneath their dignity.

And again, it's not just Shojo you have to explain here. Everyone around him who knows about the Gate's destruction and/or Xykon's survival needs to be nearly as dense.

Its not about dignity or pay grade. They specifically took an oath to not interfere in the defenses of the other gates, which Shojo explicitly believes means they wont go after Xykon unless he can prove that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate, or that the potential danger is so great that they would be willing to disregard the oath.

And Miko and the other paladins are A: not in leadership positions to need to be making decisions like that and B: are not aware of Xykon as a specific entity until the Order are dragged in for questioning. If they had that information, Shojo wouldn't need the Order in the first place!

[Lacuna Caster]

Its not about dignity or pay grade. They specifically took an oath to not interfere in the defenses of the other gates, which Shojo explicitly believes means they wont go after Xykon unless he can prove that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate, or that the potential danger is so great that they would be willing to disregard the oath.

And Miko and the other paladins are A: not in leadership positions to need to be making decisions like that and B: are not aware of Xykon as a specific entity until the Order are dragged in for questioning. If they had that information, Shojo wouldn't need the Order in the first place!

That's exactly it, Keltest. That's exactly my point. Shojo doesn't need the Order, because he already has the evidence and information he needs to get the paladins on the same page, right there, from Eugene. That's my point. Not that chasing Xykon starting from a location that is not an intact Gate would in any way breach their oaths.

Eugene, Miko and the other paladins are not in leadership positions, but surely they can point out alternative plans and make suggestions in this vein. So you can't just blame this on Shojo having a brain fart.

[Keltest]

That's exactly it, Keltest. That's exactly my point. Shojo doesn't need the Order, because he already has the evidence and information he needs to get the paladins on the same page, right there, from Eugene. That's my point. Not that chasing Xykon starting from a location that is not an intact Gate would in any way breach their oaths.

Eugene, Miko and the other paladins are not in leadership positions, but surely they can point out alternative plans and make suggestions in this vein. So you can't just blame this on Shojo having a brain fart.

He doesn't though. Eugene doesn't know crap about Xykon other than that he exists. He doesn't know about his plans or location or capabilities or anything. He struggled to even find Xykon when he was alive, let alone now that he's dead and doesn't have a fraction of the resources he used to.

Youre telling me you expect the Sapphire Guard to just go "Hey, theres an evil Lich out there somewhere! We should mobilize the entire Guard and destroy him for completely unexplained reasons!"? Because I think you may want to reconsider that conclusion.

[Lacuna Caster]

He doesn't though. Eugene doesn't know crap about Xykon other than that he exists. He doesn't know about his plans or location or capabilities or anything. He struggled to even find Xykon when he was alive, let alone now that he's dead and doesn't have a fraction of the resources he used to.

The only reason for this 'struggle' is because the Oracle disallowed him from visiting twice for entirely meta reasons. (I dislike the Oracle as a plot device in general, but while we're on the topic, there was also nothing to stop Shojo from just sending someone to the Oracle himself.)

Besides, if anyone in the Guard (including Shojo) thinks to ask "was there a goblin with a red cloak?"- which should really be the first thing they ask- then I suspect that Eugene can clue them to the Crimson Mantle's involvement, and that should ring more than enough alarm bells.

Youre telling me you expect the Sapphire Guard to just go "Hey, theres an evil Lich out there somewhere! We should mobilize the entire Guard and destroy him for completely unexplained reasons!"?

Again, if Shojo can send paladins to clean the litter box, I don't see why they'd ask twice about being sent to fight an evil lich who presumably killed Dorukan and most of his followers. Destroying evil is a significant part of the job.

[Keltest]

The only reason for this 'struggle' is because the Oracle disallowed him from visiting twice for entirely meta reasons. (I dislike the Oracle as a plot device in general, but while we're on the topic, there was also nothing to stop Shojo from just sending someone to the Oracle himself.)

Besides, if anyone in the Guard (including Shojo) thinks to ask "was there a goblin with a red cloak?"- which should really be the first thing they ask- then I suspect that Eugene can clue them to the Crimson Mantle's involvement, and that should ring more than enough alarm bells.


Again, if Shojo can send paladins to clean the litter box, I don't see why they'd ask twice about being sent to fight an evil lich who presumably killed Dorukan and most of his followers. Destroying evil is a significant part of the job.

Shojo cant send them as agents of the Sapphire Guard because he cant prove Xykon is a threat to the AC gate. He cant send them as lord of AC because its not in his territory. And Shojo specifically was looking for somebody who wasn't a paladin of the Guard but who understood (or was perceived to understand) the nature of the Gates to send on his information gathering mission.

This is all in the freaking comic. Your questions were answered in his exposition. Why do I even need to explain these things to you when Shojo says as much himself?

[Mightymosy]

By threatening him the moment he says this isn't his business.
That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.

Yes but with the fake trial Shojo could be sure Roy wouldn't tell anyone.


Tht's because you have saner priorities than Shojo. A character acting sub-optimally is not a flaw in the story, especially when that is consistent with that character's personnality.[/QUOTE]

1. Roy might have spoiled every secret after the fake trial, Shojo has no guarantee for that.
And he doesn't need to spoil Gate secrets when using sending (i.e. BEFORE any fake trial attempt - he only needs to send something that Xykon is alive and that Eugene wants Roy to go to Azure City.)
I really don't see what Shojo is getting from NOT attempting a Sending.

2. I never thought the story was bad because Shojo wasn't sane. For me it worked perfectly well, especially since OotS was mainly comedy at the time - some ruler who thinks he is oh so clever, making an overly convoluted silly plan is absolutely fair game for me. Especially since Roy even says "stupid railroad plot", which for me says that the author wanted to say "people, this is a comic - don't overanalyze certain aspects!"

Shojo cant send them as agents of the Sapphire Guard because he cant prove Xykon is a threat to the AC gate. He cant send them as lord of AC because its not in his territory. And Shojo specifically was looking for somebody who wasn't a paladin of the Guard but who understood (or was perceived to understand) the nature of the Gates to send on his information gathering mission.

This is all in the freaking comic. Your questions were answered in his exposition. Why do I even need to explain these things to you when Shojo says as much himself?

He sent Miko outside his territory anyway.

[Ruck]

He sent Miko outside his territory anyway.

On a mission regarding the destruction of one of the Gates, which explicitly is under the jurisdiction of the Sapphire Guard.

I wanted to respond to more of your post, but with the broken Quote attempts between you and Fyraltari I can't tell who said what.

[zimmerwald1915]

On a mission regarding the destruction of one of the Gates, which explicitly is under the jurisdiction of the Sapphire Guard.

According to the Sapphire Guard's own declarations, which are not recognized by anyone else.

[Keltest]

According to the Sapphire Guard's own declarations, which are not recognized by anyone else.

For the purposes of this discussion, that's semantics. Whether because they actually have authority or are simply willing to ignore national borders when it comes to the gates, they need either something involving the gates or official Azure City business to be sent out of country.

[Ruck]

According to the Sapphire Guard's own declarations, which are not recognized by anyone else.

For the purposes of this discussion, that's semantics. Whether because they actually have authority or are simply willing to ignore national borders when it comes to the gates, they need either something involving the gates or official Azure City business to be sent out of country.

Yes, correct. The question is "What can Shojo get the Sapphire Guard to do?", so the matter of what the Sapphire Guard believes to be their jurisdiction is, in fact, what is relevant.

[Aquillion]

This is getting a bit off-track, though. He can reasonably tell the Paladins:

1. The Redmountain Hills gate was destroyed, and Roy and co. were involved. It's worth calling them here (politely, at first) in order to interrogate them in order to see exactly how they were involved and determine if our gate is in trouble. Depending on what he says and how it lines up with what we know, we may or may not arrest him afterwards.

2. According to Mr. Scruffy, around the time when the gate was destroyed, the order fought some lich named Xykon. They believe him to be dead, but he is actually alive. We need to discuss Xykon with them in order to, again, determine if he is a threat to our gate. Additionally, since Xykon was apparently an enemy of the OOTS, mentioning him to Roy will make it easier to convince him to come.

He doesn't need to tell them that he intends to send Roy out to investigate other gates. He already has enough rationale to want to talk to Roy and to mention Xykon. We know that the Paladins consider their goal of protecting their own gate to be global in scope, and there's plenty of reason to worry that what happened to the Redmountain Hills gate could happen to theirs. After talking to Roy, he could easily confirm that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate and send Paladins to investigate him.

Also, even if Shojo is a control freak, nothing actually stops him from arresting Roy as soon as he arrives, if he really wants to. He has exactly the same amount of justification. Although I think people are overestimating that - he did arrange for Roy to be found innocent, at which point he didn't actually have any leverage over him. He can't even arrest Roy again, because he's revealed his own duplicity - Roy spilling the beans would hurt Shojo far more than it would hurt Roy.

In fact... I'm not seeing what Shojo gained by having Roy arrested at all. He didn't make his offer to Roy until after he'd already faked a trial in Roy's favor, which made it impossible for him to pressure Roy going forwards. If he wanted to retain control of the situation, he would have been better off limiting his contact with Roy (so Roy doesn't realize Shojo is faking insanity to his court, since that knowledge is explosive and dangerous), avoiding committing any crimes - like falsified trials - that Roy knows about. His big complicated scheme ended with him at Roy's mercy, not the other way around.

Like, if Roy had responded to Shojo's offer with "no, screw it, I'm out, and if you make any move to stop me or ever try to contact me again, I'm telling the Paladins everything", Shojo would have had no options left.

(I mean, technically he had Belkar in custody for actual crimes, but the fact that that happened was not part of Shojo's schemes and it was equally likely that Roy would have just wrote Belkar off and left him in jail - "do what I say or I leave Belkar in jail forever" just isn't much of a threat.)

[Keltest]

This is getting a bit off-track, though. He can reasonably tell the Paladins:

1. The Redmountain Hills gate was destroyed, and Roy and co. were involved. It's worth calling them here (politely, at first) in order to interrogate them in order to see exactly how they were involved and determine if our gate is in trouble. Depending on what he says and how it lines up with what we know, we may or may not arrest him afterwards.

2. According to Mr. Scruffy, around the time when the gate was destroyed, the order fought some lich named Xykon. They believe him to be dead, but he is actually alive. We need to discuss Xykon with them in order to, again, determine if he is a threat to our gate. Additionally, since Xykon was apparently an enemy of the OOTS, mentioning him to Roy will make it easier to convince him to come.

He doesn't need to tell them that he intends to send Roy out to investigate other gates. He already has enough rationale to want to talk to Roy and to mention Xykon. We know that the Paladins consider their goal of protecting their own gate to be global in scope, and there's plenty of reason to worry that what happened to the Redmountain Hills gate could happen to theirs.

Also, even if Shojo is a control freak, nothing actually stops him from arresting Roy as soon as he arrives, if he really wants to. He has exactly the same amount of justification. Although I think people are overestimating that - he did arrange for Roy to be found innocent, at which point he didn't actually have any leverage over him. He can't even arrest Roy again, because he's revealed his own duplicity - Roy spilling the beans would hurt Shojo far more than it would hurt Roy.

In fact... I'm not seeing what Shojo gained by having Roy arrested at all. He didn't make his offer to Roy until after he'd already faked a trial in Roy's favor, which made it impossible for him to pressure Roy going forwards. If he wanted to retain control of the situation, he would have been better off limiting his contact with Roy (so Roy doesn't realize Shojo is faking insanity to his court, since that knowledge is explosive and dangerous), avoiding committing any crimes - like falsified trials - that Roy knows about. His big complicated scheme ended with him at Roy's mercy, not the other way around.

Like, if Roy had responded to Shojo's offer with "no, screw it, I'm out, and if you make any move to stop me or ever try to contact me again, I'm telling the Paladin's everything", Shojo would have had no options left.

(I mean, technically he had Belkar in custody for actual crimes, but the fact that that happened was not part of Shojo's schemes and it was equally likely that Roy would have just wrote Belkar off and left him in jail - "do what I say or I leave Belkar in jail forever" just isn't much of a threat.)

Heres the thing. The trial isn't for the Paladins sake, its for Shojo's sake. He wants leverage over Roy because he's a paranoid old codger who doesn't believe loyalty or altruism are motivations to be counted on by themselves. Yes, Roy would probably cooperate with him anyway if asked nicely, but Shojo isn't willing to count on that. Yeah, its a character flaw, but its a consistent character flaw.

[Aquillion]

Heres the thing. The trial isn't for the Paladins sake, its for Shojo's sake. He wants leverage over Roy because he's a paranoid old codger who doesn't believe loyalty or altruism are motivations to be counted on by themselves. Yes, Roy would probably cooperate with him anyway if asked nicely, but Shojo isn't willing to count on that. Yeah, its a character flaw, but its a consistent character flaw.

But my point is, the trial didn't give him leverage over Roy. Just the opposite - it gave Roy leverage over him.

Shojo's plan was always to have Roy declared innocent (hence why he had Roy's father deliver the verdict.) After that, what sort of pressure did it continue to apply? The Paladins thought Roy was innocent and therefore free to walk out the door whenever he wanted. Worse, Roy was now aware that Shojo was complicit in falsifying a trial. If that information were to get out, it would hurt Shojo far more than it hurt Roy (especially since Roy was only on trial in the first place based on Shojo demanding it - nobody seems to have seriously entertained the idea of putting him back on trial once the truth came out.)

The trial, in retrospect, was an elaborate plan that served mostly to put Shojo at Roy's mercy. When it was revealed (prior to Miko flipping out), the result was essentially "Shojo rots in jail for the rest of his life", with no consequences for Roy and company. We don't know the details of the Azure City legal system, but this seems to have been an entirely predictable outcome - nobody involved was surprised by it.

[Keltest]

But my point is, the trial didn't give him leverage over Roy. Just the opposite - it gave Roy leverage over him.

Shojo's plan was always to have Roy declared innocent (hence why he had Roy's father deliver the verdict.) After that, what sort of pressure did it continue to apply? The Paladins thought Roy was innocent and therefore free to walk out the door whenever he wanted. Worse, Roy was now aware that Shojo was complicit in falsifying a trial. If that information were to get out, it would hurt Shojo far more than it hurt Roy (especially since Roy was only on trial in the first place based on Shojo demanding it - nobody seems to have seriously entertained the idea of putting him back on trial once the truth came out.)

The trial, in retrospect, was an elaborate plan that served mostly to put Shojo at Roy's mercy. When it was revealed (prior to Miko flipping out), the result was essentially "Shojo rots in jail for the rest of his life", with no consequences for Roy and company. We don't know the details of the Azure City legal system, but this seems to have been an entirely predictable outcome - nobody involved was surprised by it.

Ultimately, it would be Shojo's word against Roy's in that case. All Shojo has to do is reveal that the Being of Law and Good was Eugene and they would have grounds to repeat the trial, at which point the Order probably would be nailed to the wall. Roy can claim that Shojo was responsible for rigging the trial, but at that point he's a suspected criminal (again) making accusations against somebody that the paladins believe to be senile, without any proof. Shojo simply has a much stronger position at that point.

[Ruck]

Shojo's plan was always to have Roy declared innocent (hence why he had Roy's father deliver the verdict.) After that, what sort of pressure did it continue to apply? The Paladins thought Roy was innocent and therefore free to walk out the door whenever he wanted. Worse, Roy was now aware that Shojo was complicit in falsifying a trial. If that information were to get out, it would hurt Shojo far more than it hurt Roy (especially since Roy was only on trial in the first place based on Shojo demanding it - nobody seems to have seriously entertained the idea of putting him back on trial once the truth came out.)

Except for the part where the Sapphire Guard's diviners know that The Order of the Stick destroyed Dorukan's Gate, so if Roy tells them Shojo is faking his senility and rigged up a show trial, the first thing the Guard probably does-- maybe the second after arresting Shojo-- is to arrest and re-try the Order. Barring the rare case of a national emergency, like a lich with designs on their own gate advancing with an army on Azure City.

Shojo isn't giving Roy leverage over him; he's pulling him into the conspiracy. He's put him in a place where "If I go down, you're going with me," which is pretty effective leverage for sustaining a conspiracy, historically speaking.

Edit: Keltest has good points on how it might actually go down if Roy ratted out Shojo. By itself, the phony Being of Law and Good actually being Roy's father is a lot more convincing evidence that the conspiracy to rig the trial was Roy's doing than Shojo's.

[hroþila]

Remember what Shojo said here about discussing the applicability of Azurite law with O-Chul? Pretty obvious the fact that the trial was rigged did give him leverage over Roy.

Indeed, one thing that's not usually mentioned when discussing what Shojo could have done is that, from what we can tell, having the Order arrested was also more or less his duty as commander of the Saphire Guard.

[Ruck]

Indeed, one thing that's not usually mentioned when discussing what Shojo could have done is that, from what we can tell, having the Order arrested was also more or less his duty as commander of the Saphire Guard.

That's a good point-- we don't really know what the procedure is for Azure City once a gate is blown. Maybe the procedure is that their diviners and scryers automatically try to detect who destroyed it and then determine if there is a further threat. What can Shojo really do then that won't look suspicious? "Uh, actually, I want you to Send them a message instead. And, uh, I promise this message doesn't contain anything that would violate our oath never to divulge The Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Totally unrelated."

[Mightymosy]

But my point is, the trial didn't give him leverage over Roy. Just the opposite - it gave Roy leverage over him.

Shojo's plan was always to have Roy declared innocent (hence why he had Roy's father deliver the verdict.) After that, what sort of pressure did it continue to apply? The Paladins thought Roy was innocent and therefore free to walk out the door whenever he wanted. Worse, Roy was now aware that Shojo was complicit in falsifying a trial. If that information were to get out, it would hurt Shojo far more than it hurt Roy (especially since Roy was only on trial in the first place based on Shojo demanding it - nobody seems to have seriously entertained the idea of putting him back on trial once the truth came out.)

The trial, in retrospect, was an elaborate plan that served mostly to put Shojo at Roy's mercy. When it was revealed (prior to Miko flipping out), the result was essentially "Shojo rots in jail for the rest of his life", with no consequences for Roy and company. We don't know the details of the Azure City legal system, but this seems to have been an entirely predictable outcome - nobody involved was surprised by it.

Right.

This is getting a bit off-track, though. He can reasonably tell the Paladins:

1. The Redmountain Hills gate was destroyed, and Roy and co. were involved. It's worth calling them here (politely, at first) in order to interrogate them in order to see exactly how they were involved and determine if our gate is in trouble. Depending on what he says and how it lines up with what we know, we may or may not arrest him afterwards.

2. According to Mr. Scruffy, around the time when the gate was destroyed, the order fought some lich named Xykon. They believe him to be dead, but he is actually alive. We need to discuss Xykon with them in order to, again, determine if he is a threat to our gate. Additionally, since Xykon was apparently an enemy of the OOTS, mentioning him to Roy will make it easier to convince him to come.

He doesn't need to tell them that he intends to send Roy out to investigate other gates. He already has enough rationale to want to talk to Roy and to mention Xykon. We know that the Paladins consider their goal of protecting their own gate to be global in scope, and there's plenty of reason to worry that what happened to the Redmountain Hills gate could happen to theirs. After talking to Roy, he could easily confirm that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate and send Paladins to investigate him.

Also, even if Shojo is a control freak, nothing actually stops him from arresting Roy as soon as he arrives, if he really wants to. He has exactly the same amount of justification. Although I think people are overestimating that - he did arrange for Roy to be found innocent, at which point he didn't actually have any leverage over him. He can't even arrest Roy again, because he's revealed his own duplicity - Roy spilling the beans would hurt Shojo far more than it would hurt Roy.

In fact... I'm not seeing what Shojo gained by having Roy arrested at all. He didn't make his offer to Roy until after he'd already faked a trial in Roy's favor, which made it impossible for him to pressure Roy going forwards. If he wanted to retain control of the situation, he would have been better off limiting his contact with Roy (so Roy doesn't realize Shojo is faking insanity to his court, since that knowledge is explosive and dangerous), avoiding committing any crimes - like falsified trials - that Roy knows about. His big complicated scheme ended with him at Roy's mercy, not the other way around.

Like, if Roy had responded to Shojo's offer with "no, screw it, I'm out, and if you make any move to stop me or ever try to contact me again, I'm telling the Paladins everything", Shojo would have had no options left.

(I mean, technically he had Belkar in custody for actual crimes, but the fact that that happened was not part of Shojo's schemes and it was equally likely that Roy would have just wrote Belkar off and left him in jail - "do what I say or I leave Belkar in jail forever" just isn't much of a threat.)

Exactly.

Remember what Shojo said here about discussing the applicability of Azurite law with O-Chul? Pretty obvious the fact that the trial was rigged did give him leverage over Roy.

Indeed, one thing that's not usually mentioned when discussing what Shojo could have done is that, from what we can tell, having the Order arrested was also more or less his duty as commander of the Saphire Guard.

I don't know for sure what Shojo was trying to say but it seems like a bluff to me. I don't remember O-Chul having any problems with Roy going after any Gate's enemies. What am I missing?

That's a good point-- we don't really know what the procedure is for Azure City once a gate is blown. Maybe the procedure is that their diviners and scryers automatically try to detect who destroyed it and then determine if there is a further threat. What can Shojo really do then that won't look suspicious? "Uh, actually, I want you to Send them a message instead. And, uh, I promise this message doesn't contain anything that would violate our oath never to divulge The Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Totally unrelated."

Yes. We don't know what the procedure for AC is. So why keep people saying that Shojo could not have sent to Roy?

[hroþila]

I don't know for sure what Shojo was trying to say but it seems like a bluff to me. I don't remember O-Chul having any problems with Roy going after any Gate's enemies. What am I missing?

You're missing that O-Chul didn't know the trial was rigged.

[Fyraltari]

Myghtymosy please fix your quotes in this post.

1. Roy might have spoiled every secret after the fake trial, Shojo has no guarantee for that.

How could Roy? If he told the guard Shojo hired him it would be his word against Shojo's who do you think the Guard would believe?

And he doesn't need to spoil Gate secrets when using sending (i.e. BEFORE any fake trial attempt - he only needs to send something that Xykon is alive and that Eugene wants Roy to go to Azure City.)

And then what? He hires Roy and then he has no way to make Roy comply if he decides he doesn't care anymore.

I really don't see what Shojo is getting from NOT attempting a Sending.

He gets to have Roy arrested so he can have leverage.

I never thought the story was bad because Shojo wasn't sane. For me it worked perfectly well, especially since OotS was mainly comedy at the time - some ruler who thinks he is oh so clever, making an overly convoluted silly plan is absolutely fair game for me. Especially since Roy even says "stupid railroad plot", which for me says that the author wanted to say "people, this is a comic - don't overanalyze certain aspects!"

Then what are you doing, here?

I don't know for sure what Shojo was trying to say but it seems like a bluff to me. I don't remember O-Chul having any problems with Roy going after any Gate's enemies. What am I missing?

O-Chul would have no problem with anyone going after the Gates ennemies, he would however, have one with Shojo breaking his Oath by hiring someone to go check on the other Gates on his behalf which is what he hired Roy for.

[The Pilgrim]

Well some points about this issue:

1) The Sapphire Guard Diviners said Dorukan's was blown by the OOTS. No Xykon. No bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The OOTS.

2) Shojo only knew about Xykon thanks to Eugene. He didn't share that information with the Guard. For many reasons: First, Eugene had hijacked a being of pure Law and Good. Second, it would give the Guard a hint about Shojo's true intentions.

3) Given how fast Hinjo, his own nephew, put Shojo under arrest when he broke in the throne room with Miko and learned that Shojo had faked senility and rigged the trial, it seems that Lord Shojo being the supreme commander of the Guard doesn't means his subordinates won't rise against him as soon as he violated the Guard's principles.

4) Since the Guard probably wanted the Order arrested for destroying a Gate, the easiest path for Shojo was to give them what they wanted and issue an arrest order.

5) You do not notify a criminal that he is under search and capture warrant with a Sending, putting him into alert so he can flee from the cops.

6) The Guard did not have the resources to cast teleport or wind walk, and Shojo didn't want to put his own personal resources as Lord of the City at the Guard's disposal for various reasons. One, that the existence of the Guard is a state secret. Two, he was glad to have Miko out for as long as possible - he, after all, always choose her for long and afar missions, much to the rest of the Guard's rejoice. Three, he didn't want to get his only wizard who can teleport or any other vassals in a risky situation as he could easily foresee that Miko's encounter with the Order would escalate into conflict quickly.

[Lacuna Caster]

This is all in the freaking comic. Your questions were answered in his exposition...

Yes, Keltest. It is the reasons given in the comic that I am criticising. That's kind of my point- I don't think those reasons actually make sense.

1. Roy might have spoiled every secret after the fake trial, Shojo has no guarantee for that.
And he doesn't need to spoil Gate secrets when using sending (i.e. BEFORE any fake trial attempt - he only needs to send something that Xykon is alive and that Eugene wants Roy to go to Azure City.)
I really don't see what Shojo is getting from NOT attempting a Sending.

Yeah, the argument I've been getting from certain posters is that Shojo is canonically super-paranoid and can't trust aaaanyone and lives in dread of leaking information to third parties... ...and then he trusts the fate of the world to six near-total strangers who've already knocked out one of the legs from under the table of reality, while using one of the most roundabout and tortuous possible methods of securing their loyalty? That doesn't add up to me.

2. I never thought the story was bad because Shojo wasn't sane. For me it worked perfectly well, especially since OotS was mainly comedy at the time - some ruler who thinks he is oh so clever, making an overly convoluted silly plan is absolutely fair game for me. Especially since Roy even says "stupid railroad plot", which for me says that the author wanted to say "people, this is a comic - don't overanalyze certain aspects!"

Yeah, sure, fine. If the basic argument I was hearing was "it's a stick-figure comedy webcomic, it's not really likely to make perfect sense but I enjoy it anyway", that would be one thing. But instead I get dogpiled by readers insisting that the internal logic of the narrative totally is 100% consistent and that expecting reasonable competence in characters' decision-making would make them into soulless robots, or something.

He sent Miko outside his territory anyway.

On a mission regarding the destruction of one of the Gates, which explicitly is under the jurisdiction of the Sapphire Guard.

For the purposes of this discussion, that's semantics. Whether because they actually have authority or are simply willing to ignore national borders when it comes to the gates, they need either something involving the gates or official Azure City business to be sent out of country.

According to the Sapphire Guard's own declarations, which are not recognized by anyone else.

Yes, correct. The question is "What can Shojo get the Sapphire Guard to do?", so the matter of what the Sapphire Guard believes to be their jurisdiction is, in fact, what is relevant.

Pursuing the evil lich who killed Dorukan and most of his followers- plus the Crimson Mantle- seems tolerably close to their primary mandate, and in any case, we know he sends paladins of the Guard out into foreign lands on missions of much lower importance- such as delivering mail. There's no reason why this should be outside their purview.

And as the author pointed out previously, the issue of legal jurisdiction only arises if you actually enter a recognised foreign state. The ruins of Dorukan's Keep is not a recognised foreign state, and you don't need to cross any borders if you, for example, teleport your troops to the site. (It's possible the hobgoblins' kingdom would count, but if you've determined that Xykon & RC are hiding out there, you're already ahead of the game, intelligence-wise.)
.

[The Pilgrim]

Pursuing the evil lich who killed Dorukan and most of his followers- plus the Crimson Mantle- seems tolerably close to their primary mandate, and in any case, we know he sends paladins of the Guard out into foreign lands on missions of much lower importance- such as delivering mail. There's no reason why this should be outside their purview.

The diviners of the Sapphire Guard determined that the responsibles of blowing up Dorukan's Gate were The Order of the Stick. Not an Evil Lich. Not the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. So they expected to be sent after the perpetrators, and Shojo complied to the Guard's expectations.

Shojo knew the responsible was Xykon, only because of Eugene. But if the Paladins had been asked to believe either their own diviners or the father of the main culprit who just hijacked the Being of Pure Law and Good who was actually asked for advice... there is no contest on who they would have believed.

[Keltest]

Yes, Keltest. It is the reasons given in the comic that I am criticising. That's kind of my point- I don't think those reasons actually make sense.

That's because what you think Shojo is attempting to accomplish is not actually what he was attempting to accomplish, and at this point im not sure how to bridge that disconnect. You've rejected his explicit statements of his goals and thought processes and have decided that his character really should have been different because reasons. I don't know what else there is to say, because as long as you come at the argument from the direction of "shojo was wrong to not just dog pile on Xykon from the get go" youre not going to get any sort of resolution.

[Lacuna Caster]

How could Roy? If he told the guard Shojo hired him it would be his word against Shojo's who do you think the Guard would believe?

Let me see- whoever can pass questioning under a Zone of Truth and/or Discern Lies spell, plus whatever other divinations Sangwaan can bring to bear?

It's conceivable that arresting the Order and rigging the verdict would give Shojo leverage over the OOTS, but Aquillion's points here are totally valid- the specific way that Shojo goes about it gives the OOTS much more leverage over Shojo than vice versa, particularly if Roy just chose to walk away.

Then what are you doing, here?

Pointing out fallacious reasoning.

1) The Sapphire Guard Diviners said Dorukan's was blown by the OOTS. No Xykon. No bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The OOTS.

2) Shojo only knew about Xykon thanks to Eugene. He didn't share that information with the Guard. For many reasons: First, Eugene had hijacked a being of pure Law and Good. Second, it would give the Guard a hint about Shojo's true intentions...

But what would stop Eugene, presenting himself as the Being of Pure Law and Good, which he has to do anyway in order to rig the trial, from just telling the Guard what he knew about Xykon and Redcloak? That is the precise purpose for which he was originally summoned.

I'm not saying that the Guard wouldn't have wanted the Order arrested at some point, but if Shojo's objective was to capture the Order alive and unharmed so he could subsequently pressure them with a rigged trial, then... essentially everything he did to secure that objective was flat-out daft. And again, I think if Xykon & RC had been explained properly to the guard, the Order themselves would be a secondary problem.

6) The Guard did not have the resources to cast teleport or wind walk, and Shojo didn't want to put his own personal resources as Lord of the City at the Guard's disposal for various reasons. One, that the existence of the Guard is a state secret. Two, he was glad to have Miko out for as long as possible - he, after all, always choose her for long and afar missions...

These reasons are all wrong, stupid and/or unreasonably petty. Wind Walk is a level 6 cleric spell, the High Priest of the Twelve could cast it multiple time a day. Any security concerns that applied viz-a-viz state secrets and the teleporting wizard would also have applied to Roy's mission to capture Nale, and that didn't stop Shojo from lending Roy teleport services. And Miko's personality issues are not a sufficient reason to endanger the whole damn planet.

[Jack Of Rivia]

The diviners of the Sapphire Guard determined that the responsibles of blowing up Dorukan's Gate were The Order of the Stick. Not an Evil Lich. Not the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. So they expected to be sent after the perpetrators, and Shojo complied to the Guard's expectations.

Shojo knew the responsible was Xykon, only because of Eugene. But if the Paladins had been asked to believe either their own diviners or the father of the main culprit who just hijacked the Being of Pure Law and Good who was actually asked for advice... there is no contest on who they would have believed.

"My liege... i must refute your order.
Yes, it's a terrible news that the bearer of the Crimson Mantle has allied with a Lich, and that they are after the Gates, but these Ghost you speak is a betrayer of the celestial realm: we cannot trust him.
But that is not the point. Should his words be true, if we investigated the claims we risk to interfere with others gates defenses: we have sworn an oath, to never do so."

[Lacuna Caster]

That's because what you think Shojo is attempting to accomplish is not actually what he was attempting to accomplish...

No, Keltest, I just think that if Shojo's goals were what he said they were, then his actual behaviour would be different at basically every level.

The diviners of the Sapphire Guard determined that the responsibles of blowing up Dorukan's Gate were The Order of the Stick. Not an Evil Lich. Not the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. So they expected to be sent after the perpetrators, and Shojo complied to the Guard's expectations.

I imagine those expectations could have been modified given more complete information, but in any case, arresting the Order could have been accomplished in less than 48 hours with the benefit of scrying and teleport spells.

Shojo knew the responsible was Xykon, only because of Eugene. But if the Paladins had been asked to believe either their own diviners or the father of the main culprit who just hijacked the Being of Pure Law and Good who was actually asked for advice... there is no contest on who they would have believed.

"My liege... I must refuse your order.
Yes, it's a terrible news that the bearer of the Crimson Mantle has allied with a Lich, and that they are after the Gates, but these Ghost you speak is a betrayer of the celestial realm: we cannot trust him.
But that is not the point. Should his words be true, if we investigated the claims we risk to interfere with others gates defenses: we have sworn an oath, to never do so."

To the paladins' knowledge, Eugene is not a 'betrayer of the celestial realm'. He's presenting himself as a Being of Pure Law and Good. This wouldn't stop him being truthful in other respects, and it certainly shouldn't stop the Guard from investigating the site of the ruins- whatever defences were in place there have already been maximally 'interfered' with.

[Keltest]

No, Keltest, I just think that if Shojo's goals were what he said they were, then his actual behaviour would be different at basically every level.

I mean, you say that, but every time you actually elaborate its clear that you don't understand his goals as well as you think, since you keep insisting he should be trying to assassinate Xykon.

[Lacuna Caster]

I mean, you say that, but every time you actually elaborate its clear that you don't understand his goals as well as you think, since you keep insisting he should be trying to assassinate Xykon.

I think pursuing Xykon with an option to terminate was the logical top priority, yes, given that's exactly what he hires Roy & Co. to do. My point is simply that he didn't need Roy & Co. to do it, because chasing Xykon from his last known location- the ruins of Dorukan's Gate- would in no way have contravened the oaths of his paladins. And this is also the most expedient method of resolving Eugene's blood oath, so why would Eugene want anything else?

Securing the Order's cooperation might have been a secondary goal, but it's not the main objective.