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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Please don't accuse me of trying to make Hilgya look better. She's evil enough without ascribing her delusional reasoning for taking Kudzu with her into battle as malice. I was just pointing out that not going into battle at all is an option that had pretty good odds of ending up in the order, Hilgya, Kudzu, and the entire world all dead.
    Sure. She could have said "well, since the world is at stake, I'll help you. No, I'm not putting down Kudzu, clerics of Thor no one tells me what to do, grah!"

    She didn't say that first sentence, though; she stayed laser-focused on "I wanna murder Durkon Thundershield." Which was pretty malicious, given that she stated that as her goal well before she learned that he was a vampire or a threat to the world.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Also, how much Hilgya's presence even ultimately affected the outcome is debatable.
    Her presence made the score closer. In basketball terms, between the Chaos Giraffes, the chaos hammer, and the flame strike on the enemy, the defeat of the Order by Durkula's team was more like a 90-80 defeat than a 100-60 defeat... until Durkon-within-Durkula sank three three point shots and Belkar made a lay up (assist from Durkon) to finish it 91-90.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2018-12-29 at 09:11 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Her presence made the score closer. In basketball terms, between the Chaos Giraffes, the chaos hammer, and the flame strike on the enemy, the defeat of the Order by Durkula's team was more like a 90-80 defeat than a 100-60 defeat... until Durkon-within-Durkula sank three three point shots and Belkar made a lay up (assist from Durkon) to finish it 91-90.
    Losing closer is still losing. They were in a life-and-death situation that ultimately only wasn't so because of Durkon.

    For every benefit she produced, it can easily be argued the hinderance of her getting dominated brings her sum value to 0.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-12-29 at 09:54 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Theoretically, if it had taken the vampires less time to defeat them, then they'd have been able to kill them off before Durkon could convert his vampire, and Belkar wouldn't have been there to destroy him. Durkon would then have had to fight the other vampires on his own, and he might have lost (or the vampire spirit might have reestablished control). In that sense, losing closer might have made all the difference. Now, did Hilgya make the fight last longer than it would have otherwise? Hard to say (too many variables), but I'm leaning towards "yes".

    But I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, to be honest. Yes, I do think she's just contributed to saving the world. No, I don't think that was her motivation.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    We just need bread to learn for sure her aligment.


  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    The thing is, I've seen many arguments that Hilgya doesn't ensure the bread is sealed, but they don't seem to establish that she leaves the bag full-on open. I still think it's tucked under at least a little.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    The thing is, I've seen many arguments that Hilgya doesn't ensure the bread is sealed, but they don't seem to establish that she leaves the bag full-on open. I still think it's tucked under at least a little.
    No, you have been told over and over her many crimes. All of which are Evil. If we are to use the ludicrous bread chart, every action on page has been the equivalent of leaving the bag open. Your counter to this? "There are worse people" "maybe she does good off page" (which, as arguments go, could be said of anyone, down to and including Xykon) and "other people can do evil actions, some of whom are still good", ignoring that those that we know are still good, have regretted and amended their ways, which Hilgya has not.

    She has performed evil actions, on page and off, with no regrets, and told proud stories of said Evil actions. No regret, no qualms, no moral issues with any of them (except the "mudering Ivan was a misplaced target"... but not "murdering is the wrong way to deal with my issues, I note). She. Is. Evil.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    The thing is, I've seen many arguments that Hilgya doesn't ensure the bread is sealed, but they don't seem to establish that she leaves the bag full-on open. I still think it's tucked under at least a little.
    You think she isn't that chaotic?
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, you have been told over and over her many crimes. All of which are Evil. If we are to use the ludicrous bread chart, every action on page has been the equivalent of leaving the bag open. Your counter to this? "There are worse people" "maybe she does good off page" (which, as arguments go, could be said of anyone, down to and including Xykon) and "other people can do evil actions, some of which are still good", ignoring that those that we know are still good, have regretted and amended their ways, which Hilgya has not.
    Grey Wolf
    ...
    ...
    *Sigh*

    I think I've delineated pretty clearly where I disagree with each of these points. Repeating yourself doesn't make you any more convincing. But hey, arguing in circles is pretty fun, so I'll put my point-of-view in a slightly different way.

    A good person never kills (except when they do, but let's put that aside for now). An evil person kills whenever it's convenient or fun. A neutral character lies somewhere in between.

    So what's in between "killing" and "no killing"? How about imagining killing people but not following through? How about making half-hearted attempts at killing that don't actually work, like trying to poison someone resistant to poison? How about killing sometime and then immediately raising them?

    You can keep claiming these acts are a million kilonazis of evil, that's a perfectly valid opinion for you to have. While they are not good, I don't think they're necessarily pure evil either. We just have different opinions of where the line between neutral and evil lies in OOTS-verse.

    Seriously, I was just trying to play off the bread joke...
    Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:11 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    ...
    ...
    *Sigh*

    I think I've delineated pretty clearly where I disagree with each of these points. Repeating yourself doesn't make you any more convincing. But hey, arguing in circles is pretty fun, so I'll put my point-of-view in a slightly different way.

    A good person never kills (except when they do, but let's put that aside for now). An evil person kills whenever it's convenient or fun. A neutral character lies somewhere in between.

    So what's in between "killing" and "no killing"? How about imagining killing people but not following through? How about making half-hearted attempts at killing that don't actually work, like trying to poison someone resistant to poison? How about killing sometime and then immediately raising them?

    You can keep claiming these acts are a million kilonazis of evil, that's a perfectly valid opinion for you to have. While they are not good, I don't think they're necessarily pure evil either. We just have different opinions of where the line between neutral and evil lies in OOTS-verse.
    You seem to not see a difference between killing and murder. Which is a pretty honkin big difference.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You seem to not see a difference between killing and murder. Which is a pretty honkin big difference.
    Replace the word "killing" with "murder" everywhere in my post if you prefer, it doesn't change the argument.

    Well, the grammar gets worse, hopefully I don't get called out on that.
    Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:14 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    ...
    ...
    *Sigh*

    I think I've delineated pretty clearly where I disagree with each of these points.
    Where? What post?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    A good person never kills (except when they do, but let's put that aside for now). An evil person kills whenever it's convenient or fun. A neutral character lies somewhere in between.
    This is a ridiculous simplification of what Evil and Good acts are. You yourself already noticed that reducing Evil to "killing people" turns out to be ridiculously wrong. No, Evil is using other people to further your own ends. Whether stealing, abusing, harming, or actually killing is less important than the fact that you are using them for selfish reasons. Being an incompetent at murder doesn't get Hilgya off the hook just because Ivan is still alive.

    As far as I can tell, you have not rebutted anything I have said. You have literally ignored all my points about regret, intent, purpose and change, and continued to assert the three broad points I outlined above, none of which change that Hilgya considers anyone between her and her selfish objectives as mere objects to be mistreated and disposed of at her leisure, whether that be arson, murder, or theft.

    In short, she is Evil.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    Replace the word "killing" with "murder" everywhere in my post if you prefer, it doesn't change the argument.
    It really does. For instance, the first sentence, "Good people never murder. " there's no "except when they do." Because murder is different from killing.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-12-30 at 07:23 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It really does. For instance, the first sentence, "Good people never murder. " there's no "except when they do." Because murder is different from killing.
    Apropos of nothing much, can anyone help me with the Latin for "furthermore, I opine that Hilgya is Evil"?

    "Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya mala est"?

    I'm thinking I may have to add it to my signature block.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It really does. For instance, the first sentence, "Good people never murder. " there's no "except when they do." Because murder is different from killing.
    We can put that down to a difference of opinion again, I guess. I believe the Sapphire Guard is good, and that they have committed murder. I've seen some rebuttals of this that I found unconvincing.

    Even so, that point was specifically noted as being set aside for purposes of the argument, so yes, the argument remains unchanged.

    Grey Wolf, you've made excellent points, but I simply don't think they're enough to put Hilgya into the "Evil" column (or row?). On remorse, for example. Not feeling remorse over not killing people (just thinking about or attempting it) doesn't make you evil in my view of OOTS morality. It makes you not good, sure, but isn't enough to make you evil.

    I don't we'll ever convince each other to change our minds, so we'll just have to accept that we disagree. This seems to make you much more uncomfortable than it makes me - I guess you're more lawful than I am :)
    Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:41 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Apropos of nothing much, can anyone help me with the Latin for "furthermore, I opine that Hilgya is Evil"?

    "Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya mala est"?

    I'm thinking I may have to add it to my signature block.

    Grey Wolf
    "mala" here would be closer to in meaning to "bad", as in a bad cook rather than an evil cook.
    "malefica" (literally "does/produces evil") would be better I think, as according to my trusty old Gaffiot latin-french dictionary it means "criminal, mean-spirited, evil-doing, foreboding, wrong-doing or (a) curse*".

    *okay that one is neutral noun (maleficum) rather than a female adjective but since she's a magic-user it's weirdly appropriate.

    The rest of it looks fine to me (not an expert).
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-12-30 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Oceania was always a war with Eastasia
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    We can put that down to a difference of opinion again, I guess. I believe the Sapphire Guard is good, and that they have committed murder. I've seen some rebuttals of this that I found unconvincing.
    "Paladins that murder stop being paladins, and therefore cannot be assumed to remain good" is not a rebuttal you can find "unconvincing", but a description of what a Paladin is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    "Paladins that murder stop being paladins, and therefore cannot be assumed to remain good" is not a rebuttal you can find "unconvincing", but a description of what a Paladin is.

    Grey Wolf
    If OOTS-verse uses that rule, then I guess the definition of "murder" in OOTS-verse is a lot different than in normal English, so in that case I'm not sure Hilgya HAS committed (attempted/planned) murder.

    To me, what she did was not as bad as genocide.
    Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Apropos of nothing much, can anyone help me with the Latin for "furthermore, I opine that Hilgya is Evil"?

    "Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya mala est"?

    I'm thinking I may have to add it to my signature block.

    Grey Wolf
    Wish I could, but it's been 15 years since my last Latin and it rusted surprisingly fast. Looks good, but I suggest a second opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    We can put that down to a difference of opinion again, I guess. I believe the Sapphire Guard is good, and that they have committed murder. I've seen some rebuttals of this that I found unconvincing.
    Given that one of the rebuttals was from the author himself, I'm not terribly concerned that you find them unconvincing.
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wish I could, but it's been 15 years since my last Latin and it rusted surprisingly fast. Looks good, but I suggest a second opinion.


    Given that one of the rebuttals was from the author himself, I'm not terribly concerned that you find them unconvincing.
    Really? Got a link handy?

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    To me, what she did was not as bad as genocide.
    And we are back to the tired old "there are worse acts she could have done".

    Evil is not just "committing genocide". "Attempting murder" is Evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    Really? Got a link handy?
    Sure.

    I also theorize (largely based on that but not entirely) that the universe can take a bit to catch up, alignment-wise. But that's a personal theory and I wouldn't fault you or anyone for not buying into it.
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    I can see a Good person committing murder. Though depending on the reasons and how they react when confronted with the fact that, yes, it really was murder, will depend on whether that person stays good for much longer.

    Being Good and is clearly not equivalent with only doing Good things.

    But MartianInvader, I don't think what you're getting is that going "other worse people exist" doesn't mean that Hilgya can't be Evil. The alignments are pretty wide pools by necessity.

    I'd also say that you're (deliberately or otherwise) downplaying Hilgya's actual actions and her motivations for them, but others have already said done that.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-12-30 at 07:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wish I could, but it's been 15 years since my last Latin and it rusted surprisingly fast. Looks good, but I suggest a second opinion.
    The truth is... YOU are the second opinion! Dun dun dun! *Commercial break*
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-12-30 at 07:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I can see a Good person committing murder. Though depending on the reasons and how they react when confronted with the fact that, yes, it really was murder, will depend on whether that person stays good for much longer.

    Being Good and is clearly not equivalent with only doing Good things.
    Indeed. Intent, regret, amends all are crucial beyond the act itself. As is, in OotS, if you fall off the wagon and nevertheless keep trying to get back on.

    None of which, of course, Hilgya displays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    My argument was never that there were more evil actions than Hilgya's, it was that those actions were done by non-evil characters.

    That said, I hadn't seen the Giant's post re: the Azure Guard's attack on Redcloak's village, and I'll give it a read when I have the time. Maybe it will affect my opinion.

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    My argument was never that there were more evil actions than Hilgya's, it was that those actions were done by non-evil characters.
    Oh, really?
    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    I was recently thinking about how Hilgya's "evil level" stacks against other characters of known alignment, and couldn't think of a single known CE character whom she's more evil than
    You started this thread on the very basis that since every other evil person is more evil, she can't be evil.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You started this thread on the very basis that since every other evil person is more evil, she can't be evil.
    Grey Wolf
    Now you're just blatantly misrepresenting what I said. I started this thread on the basis that the forum was mostly of the opinion that she is evil, and I didn't argue against that. The whole point of this thread was to not get bogged down in the same old arguments of why she's CE or CN, and instead to see if we all agreed that she was the closest character to the boundary of the two that we've seen so far.

    This is INDEPENDENT of which side of the line she falls on, and I NEVER claimed that her being the "most neutral CE" character implied that she was CN, any more than I would accept an argument that her being the "most evil CN" character implies that she's CE.

    On that front, I think the thread was a success - no one seemed to think any known evil characters were less evil than her, nor any known neutral characters were more evil, except for some interesting debate about Enor and Gannji (Edit: and Belkar, sorry Pilgrim!). We seem to mostly agree she's as close to the line as we've seen.

    Where the thread failed miserably, of course, was in avoiding the tired old "CN or CE" debate. (That is, by the way, why I was avoiding lengthy, detailed responses to your lengthy, detailed arguments - it was a doomed attempt to keep the thread from derailing off-topic, which it has now done completely, with my own shameful participation).
    Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 10:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    I think I see what your point is now. To that end, I'll say that I do think Hilgya is more committed to Chaos than Evil as an ideal, and that she doesn't seem to kill simply because she enjoys killing and finds it fun, like, say, Thog, Belkar, and Xykon do. But she also has no regard for sapient life, insofar as her first solution to basically every problem as far as we saw was to kill the other person or persons involved. So, definitely Evil, but not committed to doing Evil, if that makes sense.

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    The whole point of this thread was to not get bogged down in the same old arguments of why she's CE or CN, and instead to see if we all agreed that she was the closest character to the boundary of the two that we've seen so far.

    (...)

    On that front, I think the thread was a success - no one seemed to think any known evil characters were less evil than her
    You are wrong.

    I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    After the last strip, it's pretty clear that Hilgya is far further south of Neutral than Belkar.
    And I'm still pretty sure that, at this moment, Belkar is holding the title of character closest to the boundary between CN and CE.

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