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2018-12-29, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Sure. She could have said "well, since the world is at stake, I'll help you. No, I'm not putting down Kudzu, clerics of Thor no one tells me what to do, grah!"
She didn't say that first sentence, though; she stayed laser-focused on "I wanna murder Durkon Thundershield." Which was pretty malicious, given that she stated that as her goal well before she learned that he was a vampire or a threat to the world.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-12-29, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Her presence made the score closer. In basketball terms, between the Chaos Giraffes, the chaos hammer, and the flame strike on the enemy, the defeat of the Order by Durkula's team was more like a 90-80 defeat than a 100-60 defeat... until Durkon-within-Durkula sank three three point shots and Belkar made a lay up (assist from Durkon) to finish it 91-90.
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2018-12-29 at 09:11 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2018-12-29, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-12-29 at 09:54 PM.
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2018-12-30, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Theoretically, if it had taken the vampires less time to defeat them, then they'd have been able to kill them off before Durkon could convert his vampire, and Belkar wouldn't have been there to destroy him. Durkon would then have had to fight the other vampires on his own, and he might have lost (or the vampire spirit might have reestablished control). In that sense, losing closer might have made all the difference. Now, did Hilgya make the fight last longer than it would have otherwise? Hard to say (too many variables), but I'm leaning towards "yes".
But I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, to be honest. Yes, I do think she's just contributed to saving the world. No, I don't think that was her motivation.ungelic is us
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2018-12-30, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
We just need bread to learn for sure her aligment.
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2018-12-30, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
The thing is, I've seen many arguments that Hilgya doesn't ensure the bread is sealed, but they don't seem to establish that she leaves the bag full-on open. I still think it's tucked under at least a little.
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2018-12-30, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
No, you have been told over and over her many crimes. All of which are Evil. If we are to use the ludicrous bread chart, every action on page has been the equivalent of leaving the bag open. Your counter to this? "There are worse people" "maybe she does good off page" (which, as arguments go, could be said of anyone, down to and including Xykon) and "other people can do evil actions, some of whom are still good", ignoring that those that we know are still good, have regretted and amended their ways, which Hilgya has not.
She has performed evil actions, on page and off, with no regrets, and told proud stories of said Evil actions. No regret, no qualms, no moral issues with any of them (except the "mudering Ivan was a misplaced target"... but not "murdering is the wrong way to deal with my issues, I note). She. Is. Evil.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:24 PM.
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-12-30, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
...
...
*Sigh*
I think I've delineated pretty clearly where I disagree with each of these points. Repeating yourself doesn't make you any more convincing. But hey, arguing in circles is pretty fun, so I'll put my point-of-view in a slightly different way.
A good person never kills (except when they do, but let's put that aside for now). An evil person kills whenever it's convenient or fun. A neutral character lies somewhere in between.
So what's in between "killing" and "no killing"? How about imagining killing people but not following through? How about making half-hearted attempts at killing that don't actually work, like trying to poison someone resistant to poison? How about killing sometime and then immediately raising them?
You can keep claiming these acts are a million kilonazis of evil, that's a perfectly valid opinion for you to have. While they are not good, I don't think they're necessarily pure evil either. We just have different opinions of where the line between neutral and evil lies in OOTS-verse.
Seriously, I was just trying to play off the bread joke...Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:11 PM.
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2018-12-30, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-12-30, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:14 PM.
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2018-12-30, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Where? What post?
This is a ridiculous simplification of what Evil and Good acts are. You yourself already noticed that reducing Evil to "killing people" turns out to be ridiculously wrong. No, Evil is using other people to further your own ends. Whether stealing, abusing, harming, or actually killing is less important than the fact that you are using them for selfish reasons. Being an incompetent at murder doesn't get Hilgya off the hook just because Ivan is still alive.
As far as I can tell, you have not rebutted anything I have said. You have literally ignored all my points about regret, intent, purpose and change, and continued to assert the three broad points I outlined above, none of which change that Hilgya considers anyone between her and her selfish objectives as mere objects to be mistreated and disposed of at her leisure, whether that be arson, murder, or theft.
In short, she is Evil.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:17 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by Peelee; 2018-12-30 at 07:23 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-12-30, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 07:27 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
We can put that down to a difference of opinion again, I guess. I believe the Sapphire Guard is good, and that they have committed murder. I've seen some rebuttals of this that I found unconvincing.
Even so, that point was specifically noted as being set aside for purposes of the argument, so yes, the argument remains unchanged.
Grey Wolf, you've made excellent points, but I simply don't think they're enough to put Hilgya into the "Evil" column (or row?). On remorse, for example. Not feeling remorse over not killing people (just thinking about or attempting it) doesn't make you evil in my view of OOTS morality. It makes you not good, sure, but isn't enough to make you evil.
I don't we'll ever convince each other to change our minds, so we'll just have to accept that we disagree. This seems to make you much more uncomfortable than it makes me - I guess you're more lawful than I am :)Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:41 PM.
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2018-12-30, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
"mala" here would be closer to in meaning to "bad", as in a bad cook rather than an evil cook.
"malefica" (literally "does/produces evil") would be better I think, as according to my trusty old Gaffiot latin-french dictionary it means "criminal, mean-spirited, evil-doing, foreboding, wrong-doing or (a) curse*".
*okay that one is neutral noun (maleficum) rather than a female adjective but since she's a magic-user it's weirdly appropriate.
The rest of it looks fine to me (not an expert).Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-12-30 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Oceania was always a war with Eastasia
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-12-30, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 07:45 PM.
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2018-12-30, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Wish I could, but it's been 15 years since my last Latin and it rusted surprisingly fast. Looks good, but I suggest a second opinion.
Given that one of the rebuttals was from the author himself, I'm not terribly concerned that you find them unconvincing.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-12-30, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2018-12-30, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Sure.
I also theorize (largely based on that but not entirely) that the universe can take a bit to catch up, alignment-wise. But that's a personal theory and I wouldn't fault you or anyone for not buying into it.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-12-30, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
I can see a Good person committing murder. Though depending on the reasons and how they react when confronted with the fact that, yes, it really was murder, will depend on whether that person stays good for much longer.
Being Good and is clearly not equivalent with only doing Good things.
But MartianInvader, I don't think what you're getting is that going "other worse people exist" doesn't mean that Hilgya can't be Evil. The alignments are pretty wide pools by necessity.
I'd also say that you're (deliberately or otherwise) downplaying Hilgya's actual actions and her motivations for them, but others have already said done that.Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-12-30 at 07:58 PM.
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2018-12-30, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-12-30 at 07:58 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-12-30, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
My argument was never that there were more evil actions than Hilgya's, it was that those actions were done by non-evil characters.
That said, I hadn't seen the Giant's post re: the Azure Guard's attack on Redcloak's village, and I'll give it a read when I have the time. Maybe it will affect my opinion.
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2018-12-30, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-12-30 at 08:12 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-12-30, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
Now you're just blatantly misrepresenting what I said. I started this thread on the basis that the forum was mostly of the opinion that she is evil, and I didn't argue against that. The whole point of this thread was to not get bogged down in the same old arguments of why she's CE or CN, and instead to see if we all agreed that she was the closest character to the boundary of the two that we've seen so far.
This is INDEPENDENT of which side of the line she falls on, and I NEVER claimed that her being the "most neutral CE" character implied that she was CN, any more than I would accept an argument that her being the "most evil CN" character implies that she's CE.
On that front, I think the thread was a success - no one seemed to think any known evil characters were less evil than her, nor any known neutral characters were more evil, except for some interesting debate about Enor and Gannji (Edit: and Belkar, sorry Pilgrim!). We seem to mostly agree she's as close to the line as we've seen.
Where the thread failed miserably, of course, was in avoiding the tired old "CN or CE" debate. (That is, by the way, why I was avoiding lengthy, detailed responses to your lengthy, detailed arguments - it was a doomed attempt to keep the thread from derailing off-topic, which it has now done completely, with my own shameful participation).Last edited by MartianInvader; 2018-12-30 at 10:53 PM.
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2018-12-30, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment
I think I see what your point is now. To that end, I'll say that I do think Hilgya is more committed to Chaos than Evil as an ideal, and that she doesn't seem to kill simply because she enjoys killing and finds it fun, like, say, Thog, Belkar, and Xykon do. But she also has no regard for sapient life, insofar as her first solution to basically every problem as far as we saw was to kill the other person or persons involved. So, definitely Evil, but not committed to doing Evil, if that makes sense.
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2018-12-30, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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