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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    I could be wrong, but I like to think the storytellers haven't worked this hard to make us believe something without actually showing it to us unless they later hope to surprise us with an unexpected twist.
    Interesting point. We've seen stuff like page 41, Wanda and Jillian behind the dwagon, but were they actually kissing? Perhaps they were discussing their strategy.

    Incidentally, I would say that Wanda is callous, but not necessarily cruel.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenputtyknife View Post
    I don't know whether The Old Hack agreed or disagreed with my earlier post, since the above wasn't written in response to it. I do know that his post requires a careful and thoughtful reply.

    I'm mostly in agreement with what The Old Hack says, but I think he may be missing something. Or not. It may be that I'm missing something in his writing. Or maybe we're fully in agreement and I'm just not seeing it again. Wouldn't be the first time.
    Wouldn't be the first time with me, either. *sigh*

    In the real world, whipping someone may or may not constitute torture. There is no simple easy-to-define dividing line; it depends on too many things—the circumstances, the person's emotional and physical state, the intentions of the person behind the whip, the desires of the person being whipped, heaven knows what altogether. In fact, as I understand it (I'm not in the habit of reading torture manuals), modern-day interrogators regard physical torture as a rather ineffective way of achieving their goals.
    As far as I know, you are correct, and please let me assure you that I do not consider consensual sadomasochism to be torture. What I attempted to address was the notion that full healing at dawn would automatically eliminate all consequences of physical torture.

    My own point was that in Erfworld, the total-healing system allows a much greater range of injury to be inflicted without necessarily descending into the realm of torture, and therefore we have to be extremely careful when we accuse Wanda of “brutal torture” when we see her doing what in the real world would be horrible physical abuse to Jillian. She may well have been torturing Jillian—I'm offering no opinion on that—but we can't say that she was just because we saw the physical effects. The psychological after-effects are a different matter entirely.
    Hm. I'm not sure the two can be readily separated, at least not automatically, but I am willing to agree that the mechanics of Erfworld would certainly shift the limits compared to our own world.

    A submissive who goes to a real-world SM dungeon may come away with a fine collection of welts and perhaps worse, but without psychological scars (unless something went very, very wrong). A prisoner who undergoes a brutal interrogation may experience less actual physical abuse, but suffer far greater and lasting mental trauma. I shudder to think what might be experienced in an Erfworld SM dungeon—but it wouldn't be torture by any useful definition.
    In any event, I'd like to once again stress that my post addressed the concept of torture in general, not Wanda and Jillian specifically. The fact that I personally would as soon make love to a meat grinder as have a relationship with Wanda as dominant has very little to do with it.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Sweet criminey the scare quote orgy is making my eyes bleed.

    Yes, I actually feel sorry for Wanda, if for nothing else than receiving such final, absolute confirmation that the person she was connected to does not feel such a connection to her any longer.

    Girl Wonder, by the tenor of your posts (disclaimer: have not read all of them) that you have not experienced the dominant or submissive side of a serious BDSM relationship. Take the hardest of hard sadists, one whose play borders on criminal, who has played with a bottom for years. Then have that bottom publicly declare his affection for that sadist's rival. That sadist will be crushed because there is a tie, a highly emotional one, to the object of your affliction affection. For you to make the kind of assumptions you are making, perhaps you should extend the emotional complexity of the situation?

    To be honest, I find Wanda more interesting than the unidimensional archetypes presented on either side. You see her as evil. I see her as opportunistic and highly practical. How do you know that her talent for torture, as described by Stanley, is second-hand rumor delivered by the brainwashed trolls to allow her to do what is necessary? Desecrating the dead? The dead are dead; they are lifeless shells without souls. They don't care. You shouldn't either. Sex with someone repulsive to spare the life of your last good hope? Sure, why not. Conventional morality is popular, not absolute. Even killing one's own family members is totally acceptable in some parts of the world.

    [Scrubbed]
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2007-09-27 at 09:16 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Girl Wonder, given you trust Jamie's art so much, how do you interpret Wanda's face when she promotes Bogroll to Lackey? Do you see anything else than love (in a motherly sense)? I can't. That's pure good heart just there, under our eyes.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Exactly, Wanda has demonstrated many times that she is compassionate and helpful. I'd say that working under the Tool all this time has jaded and scared her in many ways but also we don't know the rest of her history.

    The only truly "evil" thing we've seen her do is torture someone, but then again as has been pointed out it could be BDSM. In fact the evidence for that being the case is astounding since Jillian herself said she liked it and also they are obvbiusly lovers.

    Besides as I pointed ou earlier her interrigation would have been much more intense and heinous were Wanda trully cruel. And SMushels Dart brings up a good point about her reputation for a torturer being heresay from brainwashed henchmen. Truly does the Wanda that tolerates and even is friendly towards Sizemores good natured goodiness and the same Wanda that "lovgingly" promoted Bogroll seem like a cruel vindictive witch?

    Sure she may cast spells and raise the dead, but is that inherently evil? After all, raising the dead from her own side doesn't seem nearly as bad as actually killing the people in the first place. And Ansom gets a free ride because what? it's warfare? If this is the case then why isn't Wanda allowed to reanimate the fallen to help with GK's and ultimately her own survival?

    I mean war is hell and you do what you have to do. Kiling, burning, toruture, and manipulation are all part of the game if you want to survive. And from what I've seen, Wanda hasn't ended a single life nor has she done anythign to anyone that didn't want it done(and even enjoyed it).

    Bogroll, Sizemore, Parson, and Stanley(wehter he knows it or not) all depend on Wanda for their very lives in many ways(without her uncroaked infantry this war would alread likely be over). And it's true that Parson was take and thrust into this dangerous situation, but he did say he wanted to be there, and besides has he once really tried to get home? No, he's enjoying himself immensely. Bogrolls life is made better, Sizemore is allowed to study new magicks as her understudy(and thus extricate himself from the cesspit), and Parson has learned how to deal with the Tool thus keeping him alive and in control. Even Jillian in the end enjoys her time with Wanda and doesn't want her to come to harm.

    So as I think about it more and more, how exactly is Wanda a bad person? By not taking everything at face value and digging for the truth I think she may be one of the best souls in this story to be honest. I mean Ansom may look pretty and nice, but he's attacking Stanley for silly petty reasons stemming from nobility and some notions of entitelment, SOunds like Ansom is the Petty selfish one to me.

    So I'm sorry but I'm not sold on the whole "Wanda is evil" bit. In fat I think she's better than neutral. Sure she's cynical but you'd have to be in her situation just to survive.

    But if I've missed something here by all means let me know.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Israfel

    I thought GW made some points though. I disagree that Wanda's evil, but she did bad things.

    She did use Jillian's informations to try and harm the one Jillian loved, and Wanda knew that. Torture, depending on what it truelly was could also be considered a bad act.

    I wouldn't paint Wanda white, certainly not. It's too early to say if she's a good soul or not as much as it's too early to say she's a bad one. She's certainly as human as you can get, and as such deserves compassion when she suffers.

    This doesn't mean it excuses everything. I'll take the child analogy again, it's not because you love your kid that you'll forgive all his bad deeds.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Smushel's Dart View Post
    To be honest, I find Wanda more interesting than the unidimensional archetypes presented on either side. You see her as evil. I see her as opportunistic and highly practical.
    While I think Wanda's behavior is generally reprehensible, I've always found the character interesting. With her self-control now apparently cracked into pieces, we may be about to see a lot more of what makes her tick.

    Really, I find your worldview 1) highly trollish in its simplicity (She r bad b/c she r with bad person) or 2) just inexplicably simple in the light of all sorts of possibilities. I wonder which it is?
    Simplicity? Agree or disagree with the arguments, they're hardly simple. (And "trollish" is just uncalled for.)

    Quote Originally Posted by israfel420 View Post
    Exactly, Wanda has demonstrated many times that she is compassionate and helpful. I'd say that working under the Tool all this time has jaded and scared her in many ways but also we don't know the rest of her history.
    Given her apparent facility at maneuvering Stanley into following her lead (while thinking it was his own idea), I don't think that working with him has had much of an effect (other than perhaps making her a bit more cynical out of chronic irritation and annoyance). As for "the rest of her history"... that may be one of the things that comes out with the collapse of her personal shields.

    The only truly "evil" thing we've seen her do is torture someone, but then again as has been pointed out it could be BDSM. In fact the evidence for that being the case is astounding since Jillian herself said she liked it and also they are obviously lovers.
    I don't think that "obviously" follows, though the hints in that direction make me think it's more likely than not. The one thing that is obvious is that Wanda deliberately introduced a strong erotic overtone to the proceedings (I doubt that she just grabbed that outfit at random), but that could be simply a psychological pressure tactic.

    Besides as I pointed ou earlier her interrigation would have been much more intense and heinous were Wanda trully cruel.
    That goes back to the distinction between "cruel" (indifferent at best to the suffering of others) and "sadistic" (pleased by the suffering of others). Wanda's businesslike attitude can be described by the former, but not the latter.

    Sure she may cast spells and raise the dead, but is that inherently evil?
    I agree with this point, actually. We haven't seen any indication that croaked Erfworlders are "supposed" to have some sort of afterlife or final rest, much less that being animated as uncroaked somehow interferes with that. Sure, it's probably disturbing to be attacked by the animated corpse of an old comrade-in-arms, but you can hardly conduct a war if you're not willing to cause distress to the enemy.

    EDIT: Of course, Erfworlders may have their own beliefs about what happens to them after they croak, and find uncroaking to be an abomination. Croakamancy is a subfield of "Naughtymancy" (a "cutesy-boop" name for what might otherwise be called "dark arts," "black magic," or some such), after all. That would make Wanda's entire preferred school of magic "evil" by their standards, though not necessarily by ours.

    I mean war is hell and you do what you have to do.
    Notwithstanding what I just said, being at war doesn't excuse everything.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-09-25 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Additional thought

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    that could also be the sudden realization of the emotional pickle she's gotten herself into. you have to remember that it's a Romeo & Juliet type of situation. Two hearts on the opposite side of a war, in love...

    Jillian choosing Ansom is basically likeif Juliet said 'forget you, Romeo, I'm a Montague!' after they had secretly gotten married.
    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Um... no, we don't have to remember that because that's never been established. You've attacked a lot of my assumptions, but this one, I think, is the biggest assumption of all.
    ok, I will agree that this is one of the times that I stated an assumption as fact. However, I don't think it's THAT big of an assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Wanda has stated Jillian loves Ansom.

    Jillian has stated Jillian loves Ansom.

    Wanda pointedly did NOT state that Jillian loves her, only that Jillian would not directly harm her.

    Jillian has never stated or hinted that she loves Wanda.

    Wanda has never stated or hinted that she loves Jillian.

    Please note that in all of the above statements, I mean love in the 'romantic' sense, rather than the platonic or familial sense.

    I think there is a reason for this... Rob and Jamie have been VERY careful in what they choose to show us, and what they don't. As far as Wanda/Jillian are concerned, they've given lots of indicators to get us thinking a certain way ('Wanda and Jillian are in love with each other!'), and this, by and large, seems to have worked, since it often seems to be taken as a given on these message boards.
    I think there is another, non-meta-plot reason: Who are they going to tell??? Can you imagine either one of them telling anyone else? Or even each other? It as a struggle for Jillian to even admit that she liked it.

    I would say that Wanda at least believes that Jillian loves here, as from this conversation: "...nor harm someone she loves... ...above all else, she won't harm me."

    Obvious (to me) is that Wanda believes Jillian loves her more than Jillian loves Ansom. Similarly, I would state that I believe that Wanda truly loves Jillian. This belief of mine is further reinforced by her breakdown on this page. I would hazard a guess that Wanda tends to suppress her emotions, as they usually lead her to pain. Despite that, she has fallen in love with Jillian, and for a while it was ok, but now she feels the pain.

    Again, this may lead Wanda to become even darker, crueler, etc.
    'Hell hath no fury...' and it is human nature to lash out at whatever is nearby when we are hurt.

    I will admit that Jillian's love could be magically induced, but I don't think so, given Wanda's reaction to Jillian's action.

    Random related thought: I don't think Wanda or anyone else at GK saw the thinkagram. We have no evidence that she can see through the uncroaked the way Vinnie can see through the bats. Wanda doesn't see Jillian choose Ansom, just that she started croaking dwagons, and then Ansom rode in to rescue her. Perhaps the reaction is not that Jillian repudiated her, so much as that Wanda has failed Jillian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    When I see Jillian and Wanda together (at least when Wanda's not beating the snot out of Jillian), I see two friends, compatriots, almost sisterly regard. Call it woman's intuition, but their conversation is far more like something I'd have with my best friend than an ardent lover who I only have the chance to be with intermittently. Even when Jillian revels in Wanda's embrace on dwagonback, and when they talk, heads and hearts close together behind the dwagon, I am reminded more of the close, whispered, 'secret' chats I've had with a girlfriend and warm hugs we've shared more than any kind of ardor or forbidden love.
    Having never been in either of those situations (being male) I'll have to take your word for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    I could be wrong, but I like to think the storytellers haven't worked this hard to make us believe something without actually showing it to us unless they later hope to surprise us with an unexpected twist.
    Perhaps they have shown it the only way they believably could, but some of us have not seen it?

    Maybe Wanda speaking out against killing Jillian and the breakdown are supposed to be the twist (or maybe we are about to see the twist in it's full glory)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    As for your other arguments about Wanda not being cruel or abusive, well, I'll take assumptions based on actions and reactions I've seen inside the panels of the comic over 'what if' scenarios that take place largely within the bounds of conjecture. And yes, we're all making assumptions in the absence of thought balloons or statements from the authors, but I'm arguing a difference in quality, not kind.
    I would refer you to some of the other excellent posts that have been made recently about Wanda's positive actions.

    Again I say, you are letting one event color your entire perspective. I see a pattern of goodness, not a pattern of cruelty. "123123456" is an ascending pattern, even if the most significant change is a descending one.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Random related thought: I don't think Wanda or anyone else at GK saw the thinkagram. We have no evidence that she can see through the uncroaked the way Vinnie can see through the bats
    Very good point. And when you couple that with her reaction when Parson wants to croak Jillian, we can reasonably assume she has feelings for Jillian.

    Page 70, I see sadness in Wanda's expression after Jillian attacked Leeroy, not anger.

    Page 71, just after Parson commands to croak Jillian on page 70 we see Wanda saying "no". She must know by now it's the best option for GK and even for her regarding the war. Yet she says "no". In context I think it's safe to assume this is not only due to her "controlmania" but at least partially due to the feelings she has for Jillian.

    Then she even says "please". Can you imagine pridefull Wanda say please in such a circumstance if she wasn't overulled by her emotions? Do you honestly think she could have said please out of her need to control everything? It just doesn't match.

    Wanda at the very least cares for Jillian enough that she can risk loosing her life (indirectly) for her.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Random related thought: I don't think Wanda or anyone else at GK saw the thinkagram. We have no evidence that she can see through the uncroaked the way Vinnie can see through the bats.
    Agreed; there's no reason to believe that Team Stanley had any way to eavesdrop on the thinkagram. Their first indication that something was wrong was when Jillian attacked.

    Wanda doesn't see Jillian choose Ansom, just that she started croaking dwagons, and then Ansom rode in to rescue her.
    Mostly agreed, except that it's unclear whether Wanda was still watching when Ansom showed up or whether she'd already wandered away in shock.

    Perhaps the reaction is not that Jillian repudiated her, so much as that Wanda has failed Jillian?
    Er, you lost me here. What are you getting at?

    EDIT: On second thought, I guess you're referring to her failure to overturn the "Croak, not capture" order -- correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwagon View Post
    Very good point. And when you couple that with her reaction when Parson wants to croak Jillian, we can reasonably assume she has feelings for Jillian.

    Page 70, I see sadness in Wanda's expression after Jillian attacked Leeroy, not anger.
    I read it as mostly simple shock. I forget who described it as "a perfect storm of failure," but the description fits -- in one moment, she sees that her hold over Jillian is broken, her confident assurances were spectacularly refuted in front of everybody whose opinion matters, the dwagons and warlords are probably doomed, and Jillian is at considerable risk of being croaked. The confirmation of that last, with Parson's order and her failure to overturn it, was the last straw.

    Page 71, just after Parson commands to croak Jillian on page 70 we see Wanda saying "no". She must know by now it's the best option for GK and even for her regarding the war. Yet she says "no". In context I think it's safe to assume this is not only due to her "controlmania" but at least partially due to the feelings she has for Jillian.

    Then she even says "please". Can you imagine pridefull Wanda say please in such a circumstance if she wasn't overulled by her emotions? Do you honestly think she could have said please out of her need to control everything? It just doesn't match.

    Wanda at the very least cares for Jillian enough that she can risk losing her life (indirectly) for her.
    I generally agree with that interpretation. The only other plausible explanation I see is that Wanda needs Jillian alive for some pragmatic reason. IMO, if she was in that sort of practical "controlmania" mode, she would have tried to argue or manipulate in some more typical-for-her manner, not simply plead.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-09-25 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    I read it as mostly simple shock. I forget who described it as "a perfect storm of failure," but the description fits -- in one moment, she sees that her hold over Jillian is broken, her confident assurances were spectacularly refuted in front of everybody whose opinion matters, the dwagons and warlords are probably doomed, and Jillian is at considerable risk of being croaked. The confirmation of that last, with Parson's order and her failure to overturn it, was the last straw.
    I have to agree, one second thought that look is shock and not sadness. Sadness or anger (or both) are yet to come when she gets over the shock (if ever). I take that point back then ^^

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Smushel's Dart View Post

    Girl Wonder, by the tenor of your posts (disclaimer: have not read all of them) that you have not experienced the dominant or submissive side of a serious BDSM relationship.
    *sigh* Quite an assumption to make. Girl Wonder has not even once attacked the nature of BDSM itself. All she has done is to question the purity of the relationship between Wanda and Jillian -- and for very good cause. There is much in that relationship that suggests abusive elements, and while pain may be part of such a relationship and often is, abusiveness does not belong. Period.


    Really, I find your worldview 1) highly trollish in its simplicity (She r bad b/c she r with bad person) or 2) just inexplicably simple in the light of all sorts of possibilities. I wonder which it is?
    I have yet to see even one post where GW did not behave with great respect for her fellow forum posters, or for that matter, one where she did not allow for the validity of alternate viewpoints. To call her trollish is to do her a grave injustice. What is more, I find her to be complex, challenging and a delight to read. While I may at times not agree with her, whenever I read her posts I almost invariably find that she has pointed out some subtlety I myself had not noticed as yet.

    ~H.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    HOLY WALLS OF TEXT, BATMAN!!

    Can you guys please stop that? My brain hurts.

    Oh, and just a friendly reminder that it's time to go and get jobs and become productive members of society, rather than posting chapters of responses to a debate over an imaginary character in a work of fiction.

    :)

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeanDM View Post
    HOLY WALLS OF TEXT, BATMAN!!

    Can you guys please stop that? My brain hurts.

    Oh, and just a friendly reminder that it's time to go and get jobs and become productive members of society, rather than posting chapters of responses to a debate over an imaginary character in a work of fiction.

    :)
    Mega Dittos!
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeanDM View Post
    HOLY WALLS OF TEXT, BATMAN!!

    Can you guys please stop that? My brain hurts.

    Oh, and just a friendly reminder that it's time to go and get jobs and become productive members of society, rather than posting chapters of responses to a debate over an imaginary character in a work of fiction.

    :)
    Heehee... true enough. I have a job... a boring but secure one, but today I get to do it from home while the telephone man repairs a line in my house. That said, I won't have time to make more giant walls of text, so I'll have to try to be brief...

    Brief Defense of Me: I really, really am not trying to be trollish, and it bothers me that someone, at least, thinks I am. Nor do I think the arguments I am trying to put forward are simple. If they were, or if those who disagreed with me put forward equally shallow responses (they have not), there would be no needs for the walls of text on either side!

    Brief Restatement of My Position: A lot of today's early posts jumped on me for calling Wanda 'evil'. While I have put my take on the 'evil' question in a different thread, I have tried to stay away from doing that here, my thesis merely being that she is cruel (more remorseless than anything), abusive, and manipulative. I am not saying that is ALL she is, but I believe it IS what she has largely been shown as being in her interactions to this point.

    Brief Restatement of My Thoughts on the Opposing Position: The more I stick to my guns about my feelings on Wanda, the more some (certainly not all) stake out a position that seems to be more and more of a stretch to me to counter (up to and including the 'all we've really seen from Wanda is Love and Goodness' argument, discounting most of her outward acts under 'War is Hell' and it's just masking her good heart. You don't have to agree with me that Wanda has some black marks on her character, but a being of love and goodness? I'm never going to meet you halfway on that one. She may have the capacity, and after this crisis may develop those portions of her, but I will hold to the idea that we've seen very little evidence of such pure and noble sentiments in her behavior to this point

    Brief Restatement on BDSM Relationships: I have nothing against such relationships, providing they are both initiated under and continue under the willing consent by all parties involved, and that they are not abusive. 'Abusive' does not mean 'causing pain', it means 'causing harm', often by one party taking advantage of the other to their detriment. While some disagree, I view the Wanda/Jillian relationship, IF it exists as commonly assumed (which I do not take to be a given), as abusive. And as a final note, I would ask some not to assume that I, personally, know nothing about such relationships just because I don't agree with them about the nature of Wanda and Jillian. I would rather my personal history not be subject to review here, but suffice to say I may have a bit more experience than some think.

    OK... so I'm wordy... my brief statements are a little wall of text on their own. *sighs* Well, I'll see if any bricks are still standing after I'm done with work!
    Last edited by Girl Wonder; 2007-09-25 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeanDM View Post
    Oh, and just a friendly reminder that it's time to go and get jobs and become productive members of society, rather than posting chapters of responses to a debate over an imaginary character in a work of fiction.
    That's one advantage of a job that has a fair amount of "hurry up and wait until the computer finishes" time.

    Shifting gears from interpretation of what we've seen so far to random thoughts about what we might see next. Ansom's turn will presumably end after he finishes this battle and (if he can) returns to the column. The tactical situation will then be frozen for the night, but the stage is set for some very interesting character developments on both sides:

    Stanley will probably hole up in his office. He may be planning to bug out (but can't actually do so until his turn in the morning). He may or may not come out of his funk sufficiently to speak with his staff (via eyebook, at least initially) again.

    When Wanda is back on speaking terms with the outside world, she might try to reassert her control, but I don't think she'll be in a good position to do so. Breaking down in front of everybody is a serious blow to her facade. Also, Parson has already shown signs of frustration at how difficult it is to get straight answers out of her, and his need to know what the boop he'd been kept in the dark about this time is going to be stronger than ever.

    On the other side, Jillian obviously has quite a bit of explaining to do, to say nothing of the ramifications of having told Ansom that she loves him and that she had been heir to a kingdom (presumably the Plaid domain).

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Mostly agreed, except that it's unclear whether Wanda was still watching when Ansom showed up or whether she'd already wandered away in shock.
    It could go either way. Now that I think about it, I choose to believe that she left before, because it is more dramatic. Note that no one says that Manpower failed to kill Jillian.

    She leaves before the rescue -> she thinks Jillian is dead
    She leaves after the rescue -> Jillian is alive and in the hands of Ansom, just like before. Sure, she just croaked the dwagons, but maybe Jillian found a way to make that not hurt Wanda (or at least, not much). This is from Wanda's perspective, to be clear. She doesn't know about the thinkagram or even the 'I hope you can see this' line.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Er, you lost me here. What are you getting at?

    EDIT: On second thought, I guess you're referring to her failure to overturn the "Croak, not capture" order -- correct?
    Yup, that's what I was referring to. Especially if she walked away before Ansom saved Wanda, she could be feeling massive amounts of guilt over getting 'the love of her life' killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    I read it as mostly simple shock. I forget who described it as "a perfect storm of failure," but the description fits -- in one moment, she sees that her hold over Jillian is broken, her confident assurances were spectacularly refuted in front of everybody whose opinion matters, the dwagons and warlords are probably doomed, and Jillian is at considerable risk of being croaked. The confirmation of that last, with Parson's order and her failure to overturn it, was the last straw.
    I contend that Wanda is very strong willed. Lots of major set-backs, uyes, but enough to cause her to not only lose her cool but also to crack under the pressure? That doesn't fit for me unless she truly loves Jillian. She may not have realized just how much until now, but still, not knowing one's own feelings is not the same as not having those feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    I generally agree with that interpretation. The only other plausible explanation I see is that Wanda needs Jillian alive for some pragmatic reason. IMO, if she was in that sort of practical "controlmania" mode, she would have tried to argue or manipulate in some more typical-for-her manner, not simply plead.
    I concur, and I still don't think that would be enough for the breakdown. If it were just that she needed Jillian for a scheme, I think she would have done whatever she could to salvage her position, and then started on finding a new tool to use in her scheme (or a new scheme altogether). The last thing she would want to do would be to make herself look even weaker in Stanley's eyes.

    In panel one, we see Wanda (in my interpretation) looking dejected, and Sizemore looking back at her with what appears to be concern. Stanley has not blown up yet, so that can't be the cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Heehee... true enough. I have a job...
    As do I, albeit one that often has brief lulls in it. that's why I write my posts piecemeal, often causing me to miss some really good posts before i post my responses to earlier posts. (especially as I sometimes end up writing part of a post before a meeting, then writing more of it a one or more hours later)

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Brief Defense of Me: I really, really am not trying to be trollish, and it bothers me that someone, at least, thinks I am. Nor do I think the arguments I am trying to put forward are simple. If they were, or if those who disagreed with me put forward equally shallow responses (they have not), there would be no needs for the walls of text on either side!
    Hear hear! I absolutely agree on all parts. I enjoy our debates (or whatever you want to call them) and do not at all think of you as a troll. I have only the highest admiration for you, your intellect, and and your ideas, even if I disagree with some (many?) of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Brief Restatement of My Position: A lot of today's early posts jumped on me for calling Wanda 'evil'. While I have put my take on the 'evil' question in a different thread, I have tried to stay away from doing that here, my thesis merely being that she is cruel (more remorseless than anything), abusive, and manipulative. I am not saying that is ALL she is, but I believe it IS what she has largely been shown as being in her interactions to this point.
    Largely, I agree with you. However, I also happen to believe that much of what we see of it is actually a front put on by Wanda, not intended by the creators to mislead us, but rather Wanda protecting herself from the horrible reality she finds herself in, and from the pains of her past (what did happen to the rest of the Croatans? I suspect we may find out soon enough).

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Brief Restatement of My Thoughts on the Opposing Position: The more I stick to my guns about my feelings on Wanda, the more some (certainly not all) stake out a position that seems to be more and more of a stretch to me to counter (up to and including the 'all we've really seen from Wanda is Love and Goodness' argument, discounting most of her outward acts under 'War is Hell' and it's just masking her good heart. You don't have to agree with me that Wanda has some black marks on her character, but a being of love and goodness? I'm never going to meet you halfway on that one. She may have the capacity, and after this crisis may develop those portions of her, but I will hold to the idea that we've seen very little evidence of such pure and noble sentiments in her behavior to this point
    While I agree that she most likely does have one or more 'black marks' on her record, who doesn't? (Even Roy does)

    I still maintain that we have only one event that can be considered cruelty (the 'very hard way') and several that seem to be kind. Given that, the cruelty is the aberration, not the kindness. Even then, the cruelty of that one event is debatable (though there is no way to 'win' the debate, as I think we both have concluded).

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Brief Restatement on BDSM Relationships: I have nothing against such relationships, providing they are both initiated under and continue under the willing consent by all parties involved, and that they are not abusive. 'Abusive' does not mean 'causing pain', it means 'causing harm', often by one party taking advantage of the other to their detriment. While some disagree, I view the Wanda/Jillian relationship, IF it exists as commonly assumed (which I do not take to be a given), as abusive. And as a final note, I would ask some not to assume that I, personally, know nothing about such relationships just because I don't agree with them about the nature of Wanda and Jillian. I would rather my personal history not be subject to review here, but suffice to say I may have a bit more experience than some think.
    Quite frankly, your personal history is just that: personal. I neither know nor want to know what it is, just as I do not particularly want to share my own.

    Other than that, I am still unconvinced that Wanda has ever abused Jillian. Again, outside of the one event, We do not see Wanda ever putting Jillian into a situation any more dangerous than the one that Wanda is simultaneously removing Jillian from. (i.e. using Jillian as bait for Ansom is no more dangerous than being a prisoner at Gobwin Knob). Does it aid Wanda? yes. However, can you think of a better way to get Jillian out of there without putting Wanda at significant risk?

    -----

    Two things that peak my curiosity, that I havn't seen anyone talk about:
    1) Parson and Sizemore walk past Wanda before Sizemore points her out to Parson. Why did they pass her before reacting?
    2) Stanley doesn't shout his orders to the trimancer across the table. He walks around to the other side (a significant distance, considering his short legs), then he looks up at the 'mancer that I presume is the thinkamancer. Then he gives his orders.

    Any ideas?

    EDIT: this isn't a text wall, it's a text tower!
    Last edited by fendrin; 2007-09-25 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Skipping over the stuff that I've pretty much covered my views on and can't think of anything new to say about:

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Two things that peak my curiosity, that I havn't seen anyone talk about:
    1) Parson and Sizemore walk past Wanda before Sizemore points her out to Parson. Why did they pass her before reacting?
    I'm guessing that their attention was on getting out of there before the Tool's mood got uglier than it already was. If so, the compassion of pausing and going back for Wanda is all the more notable.

    2) Stanley doesn't shout his orders to the trimancer across the table. He walks around to the other side (a significant distance, considering his short legs), then he looks up at the 'mancer that I presume is the thinkamancer. Then he gives his orders.

    Any ideas?
    My read is that he was forming some idea of how he was going to "walk this path alone" and that his mood was one of cold determination rather than simple anger.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Originally Posted by Girl Wonder
    When I see Jillian and Wanda together (at least when Wanda's not beating the snot out of Jillian), I see two friends, compatriots, almost sisterly regard. Call it woman's intuition, but their conversation is far more like something I'd have with my best friend than an ardent lover who I only have the chance to be with intermittently. Even when Jillian revels in Wanda's embrace on dwagonback, and when they talk, heads and hearts close together behind the dwagon, I am reminded more of the close, whispered, 'secret' chats I've had with a girlfriend and warm hugs we've shared more than any kind of ardor or forbidden love.
    Having never been in either of those situations (being male) I'll have to take your word for that.
    Well, don't. Not to dis Girl Wonder -- I don't always agree with her, but she has some good stuff to say -- but her "women's intuition" isn't mine.

    I am a woman who has both had good, very close platonic friendships with women AND more intimate relationships with women, and my personal intuition says there's either lust or romantic love going on there.

    My intuition may of course may not be the same as anyone else's. In fact, I've never been very good at relationships, regardless of gender.

    But regardless of the exact nature of the relationship between Jillian and Wanda... it is quite complex.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Well I don't know about the other guys but my male "intuition" says that Jillian and Wanda together are hot.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathQuaker View Post
    Well, don't. Not to dis Girl Wonder -- I don't always agree with her, but she has some good stuff to say -- but her "women's intuition" isn't mine.
    Well, if it were infallible, we wouldn't be intuitive, we'd be psychic.

    I was thinking about this earlier, and it might be a mistake for any of us to read too much into what we've been shown in this regard, since what we're essentially viewing is a male writer's direction to a male artist to depict, in a suggestive matter, two women engaged in a [X] type of relationship, where [X] is whatever the heck is really going on between them, the subject of much debate. So for me to apply gender-specific 'intuition' (shame on me for invoking it, I suppose ;) ) is probably a mistake, since we're not viewing a real relationship, nor even two actresses depicting a real relationship, but an artist's interpretation of same, and his interpretations are colored by his identity as a recently married, homeowning part-time male webcomic artist, which may or may not depict [X] the same way in which my own intuition would interpret an ideal depiction of [X].

    So, this is my wordy way of saying: I STILL am not convinced Wanda/Jillian's relationship is, essentially, a romantic one, but for me to put too much stock in an intuitive guess based on my own gender perspective as to what is really going on is likely a mistake on my part. Boo, me! :P
    Last edited by Girl Wonder; 2007-09-25 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by ag30476 View Post
    Lastly, she works for the big bad evil guy, Stanley, which makes her evil too.
    Hmm... I could see Lord Hamster being evil (he was certainly excited enough to be on the evil side), but do you think Sizmore is evil? C'mon, he hangs out with Hippies? Who ever heard of an evil hippy!
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaunt View Post
    Hmm... I could see Lord Hamster being evil (he was certainly excited enough to be on the evil side), but do you think Sizmore is evil? C'mon, he hangs out with Hippies? Who ever heard of an evil hippy!
    First, Hippies are Commies which makes them Evil.

    Second, How can you have read my post from 50 posts ago and not have read my correction from 45 posts ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by ag30476 View Post
    Sorry. Typo. I meant to say "She works for the big bad evil guy, Stanley,

    • and cheerfully takes on evil tasks
    • or encourages her boss to further acts of evil
    • with no remorse
    • and the only problem she seems to have is dealing with the stupidity of her boss not how evil his commands are
    • or having to comprimise herself in order to distract or otherwise convince him

    which makes her evil too."
    Last edited by ag30476; 2007-09-25 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaunt View Post
    C'mon, he hangs out with Hippies? Who ever heard of an evil hippy!
    I rented a room to one once when I lived in a mixed guy/girl household post-college. It was scary... Peace, Love, and Yikes! His goal was to be so intolerable to me and my other housemate that we would move out and his strange friends from the health-food store could move in. He was advertising for renters for our rooms at the Yoga center while we were still living there and hadn't said anything about leaving... with a date they could occupy and everything! If we hadn't evicted him by the date he wanted us out, would I now be in a plastic bag in the woods somewhere? S-scary!

    But yes, he's an anomaly... most of the lingering hippies I've met are pretty darn harmless.
    Last edited by Girl Wonder; 2007-09-25 at 05:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    two women engaged in a [X] type of relationship, where [X] is whatever the heck is really going on between them, the subject of much debate. So for me to apply gender-specific 'intuition' (shame on me for invoking it, I suppose ;) ) is probably a mistake, since we're not viewing a real relationship, nor even two actresses depicting a real relationship, but an artist's interpretation of same, and his interpretations are colored by his identity as a recently married, homeowning part-time male webcomic artist, which may or may not depict [X] the same way in which my own intuition would interpret an ideal depiction of [X]
    What is this [X] you mean?
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    I refuse to read every single page, because I don't care if Wanda's evil or not.

    All I want to say is: and yet another update in which nothing actually happens. Joy.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    All I want to say is: and yet another update in which nothing actually happens. Joy.
    Things did happen. The coalition is saved. Dwagons and uncroaked got buzzworded and headshoted. Gobwin Knob's counterattack has failed. Jillian's fixed. Wanda's broken. Stanley walks the path alone.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    I'm guessing that their attention was on getting out of there before the Tool's mood got uglier than it already was. If so, the compassion of pausing and going back for Wanda is all the more notable.
    Well, that makes sense, but it still doean't 'feel' right. I guess it just doesn't quite jive with the dejected looking, non-hurried way that Parson and Sizemore are walking away. Am I the only one that feels that way? It's highly subjective, and I could definitely be reading way too much into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    My read is that he was forming some idea of how he was going to "walk this path alone" and that his mood was one of cold determination rather than simple anger.
    Yeah, that could be. I definitely agree with you about his emotional state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    I refuse to read every single page, because I don't care if Wanda's evil or not.

    All I want to say is: and yet another update in which nothing actually happens. Joy.
    Are we reading the same comic? this page was HUGE!
    Last edited by fendrin; 2007-09-25 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Are we reading the same comic? this page was HUGE!
    No, it wasn't.

    Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

    Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.
    Interesting point. No wonder Stanley's so ticked off, he's spent more then half of his treasury to end up in the same hole.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-09-25 at 10:02 PM.
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