Erfworld 78, Page 72

[h3rne]

yes, it's about time they started winding things up--the whole "Battle for Gobwin Knob" is supposed to be maybe 80-90 strips, or something like that, and they're already on page 72 (ignoring the Klogs).

One of the things that I have relly enjoyed about the dead-tree versions of OOTS is the commentaries by Giant (Rob and Jamie that's a hint on several levels!). And it is abundantly clear from those, that when fleshing out a plot outline into actual strips the schedule generally expands. I wouldn't be surprised therefore if Rob and Jamie were experiencing much the same thing.

That aside, I get this warm fuzzy feeling that we are in the hands of both a master story-teller and a talented artist, who delight in the medium they've chosen, including confounding our expectations on a fairly regular basis. For this reason, there are a number of things that I have seen foreshadowed that I would be surprised if we didn't see before the end...

Spoiler

Show

Sizemore making crap golems and having booby-trapped the tunnels. Seems an awful waste not to use them...

Bogroll made Parson armour and Stanley already threatened to send him out to fight. Having floated the possibility and equipped him...

Parson is clearly not out of hope or ideas yet. Team GK now includes Parson, Wanda (she'll come round), Sizemore, Bogroll, Misty (& Friends?). They will be very motivated to fight for the source of their up-keep and will do everything they can to work around Stanley if necessary...

The seige. I think team GK will have its back hard up against the wall before it succeeds - if at all, otherwise where's the dramatic tension? And maybe Parson doesn't win the battle at all, but I don't doubt he'll survive.

And the clincher. This chapter is called "The Battle for Gobwin Nob". It probably won't be over until we've seen that rather than a distant skirmish over forest and lake. And for that reason alone I was pretty certain that Parson's clever plans were going to go awry with the Dwagons, or at least were not going to prove fatal to the antagonists.

As usual I shall be delighted to be proved wrong on all counts, and I'm entirely willing to wait as long as Rob and Jamie feel they need to tell the story in the way they want to tell it. Surely it's a major success when they've got me feeling sorry for a fictional character I don't even like!

Thanks for all your work guys. FWIW, I love it.

[Quaalsten]

I suspect that Paron's best friend in the opposite ranks will be Vinnie. Vinnie has a deep respect for whoever "played" them earlier with the siege equipment and the empty hex. He's most likely to realize that Parson can be a huge asset to whatever side has him. Vinnie is likely to make sure that Parson is spared, if it is at all possible.

[SirBel]

Wow.. SirBel. That would make a lot of sense. Perhaps that's what Stanley meant by 'walking this road alone'.

But then why would there be no sense in disbanding Parson, Wanda and Sizemore?

Maybe what someone said before was right, Stanley has decided to go back to thinking like an infantry, not an overlord. So he'll just abandon Goblin Knob after taking the Arkenpliers?

I don't think so...One thing we've seen about Stanley; he's moody and prone to rash action. He's either shown a moment of compassion, he he knows he'll need Sizemore, Parson and Wanda to rebuild his empire. I don't think he's going to run, he hasn't really shown any indication he's ready to give up being an overlord. Maybe being attuned to the Arkenhammer makes losing the dwagons painful. He lost a lot and he's furious. Just my 2 cents.

[Lombard]

IIRC, Rob has stated that he had the outline of the entire story written in advance -- the development of individual pages consists of Rob expanding the set of plot points to be covered on that page into a full set of directions to Jamie (what happens in each frame, what things need to be seen, what emotions the characters are supposed to project, etc), Jamie turning those directions into a page of art, and Rob lettering in dialog boxes that are readable and as unobtrusive as possible.

Well, fwiw (which is extremely close to nothing), I'm not buying it. The quality and internal consistency/flow of the strip began to decline at exactly the same time the updates got all spotty. I mean, for instance, look at how Stanley is portrayed the entire time up to this current strip, then look at the dialogue he sprouts in this one. It's like it's not even the same character. This is not professional quality.

[SteveMB]

2) Jillian was aware of that spell being cast, as it was right in front of her; yet she seems surprised when Jaclyn mentions the spell on her.

It's unclear whether she is surprised or evasive (or, for that matter, whether her recollections of events are correct).

But then why would there be no sense in disbanding Parson, Wanda and Sizemore?

Perhaps he's so shell-shocked at the moment, having what looked like a possible last chance to pull off a victory snatched away, that he truly doesn't care any more. This show of magnanimity might reinforce his self-image as the favorite of the Titans, better than everybody else.

I mean, for instance, look at how Stanley is portrayed the entire time up to this current strip,

OK; I see angry outbursts and moodiness when things don't go his way, and also telling people to shut up when he doesn't want to hear what they have to say.

then look at the dialogue he sprouts in this one.

Are you referring to the angry outburst, the moody fatalism, or the telling everybody to shut up?

[FoolishOwl]

When facing a bloody conflict that will lead to certain defeat, the ethical thing to do, usually, is surrender. That would minimize death and destruction on both sides, assuming the stronger forces honors the terms of surrender. By all appearances, Ansom and his followers are honorable, and their only stated intent in attacking Gobwin Knob is to defeat Stanley.

If Stanley were at all a decent person, he would consider the option of surrender. He could sacrifice himself to save his followers, or, he could order them to surrender as soon as he's left Gobwin Knob. He's always had in mind the option of fleeing on his own. If anything confirms him as a tool, it's that he seems to expect his followers to die in a pointless last stand.

When Parson turned back to help along Wanda, it was the first time, I think, we've actually seen him express compassion. And notice, he did it after Sizemore directed his attention to Wanda.

I've generally been assuming that Erfworld exists, independently of Parson. However, there are hints that Erfworld is some sort of expression of Parson's mind, including his unconscious mind. I believe that there was a comment from one of the writers about the character of Wanda, that suggested something like that. In that case, it's interesting that Sizemore, the one character who is consistently compassionate, is also treated with contempt by Stanley and little respect from anyone but Parson and Bogroll. It suggests an aspect of Parson that cynical, I-am-a-rock I-am-an-island Parson does not fully acknowledge.

[SteveMB]

When Parson turned back to help along Wanda, it was the first time, I think, we've actually seen him express compassion. And notice, he did it after Sizemore directed his attention to Wanda.

His reassurance to Sizemore that all is not lost and sending Bogroll to get some sleep are debatable examples (the former could be an expression of pride, and the latter could just be pragmatic since there was nothing else for Bogroll to do).

However, his interaction with Misty is more definitive. He tells her to go back to sleep even though there she might (and, in fact, did) have helpful information. Later, he is clearly uncomfortable with her loss of identity within the Trimancer.

I've generally been assuming that Erfworld exists, independently of Parson. However, there are hints that Erfworld is some sort of expression of Parson's mind, including his unconscious mind. I believe that there was a comment from one of the writers about the character of Wanda, that suggested something like that. In that case, it's interesting that Sizemore, the one character who is consistently compassionate, is also treated with contempt by Stanley and little respect from anyone but Parson and Bogroll. It suggests an aspect of Parson that cynical, I-am-a-rock I-am-an-island Parson does not fully acknowledge.

Now that is a very interesting point. Perhaps something similar explains the childish trappings of Erfworld.

(I note that an aspect of Erfworld that seems likely to reflect a twentysomething guy's fantasy life, namely the whole lesbian-BDSM-overtoned Wanda/Jillian relationship, is apparently unknown to Parson.)

[fractal]

I figure Stanley is now off to Jetstone, to become king by regicide. It worked before, why not again?

[Demented]

That'd be amusing, in a way.


Prince Ansom: "Hey dad, I'm back. We beat the snot out of Gobwin Knob. Strange that Stanley wasn't..."
King Stanley: "Ahem. I ain't yo' daddy."

[R.I.P. Manpower]

This may have been said elsewhere in the thread, however I think that:

1) Stanley will take the rest of the Dragons and lead them in a direct assault against Ansom; "The Titans have made it clear to me, I'll have to walk this path alone". This sounds very much like he is going to lead a suicide mission in his quest for the Arkentools...who knows, he may even be sucessful.

2) Parson will successfully defend Gobwin Knob...the comic afterall is entitled the Battle for Gobwin Knob and what good would the comic be without the actual battle after it's named...all we've seen so far is a couple of skirmishes! Parson must win the battle as he's the protagonist and his life (upkeep) is intrinsicly related to the survuival of the Knob!

...the turn is over...all that's left to do is sleep and wonder what the Stupid Meal will bring in the morning! The Mathemancy gauntlet allowed his digital watch to interface...so was there anything else that he took with him that might also interface...anyone notice if he was wearing Nike - airs? Maybe his new stupid meal will enable him to fly!!!

[Aquillion]

I feel for Wanda. Oh well,she'll get over it. No tactical discussions about this one. I wonder why Stanley is breaking the link.

From a story standpoint, it's because he's lost all faith in everyone else, and is smashing things in a blind rage as he pulls in his last remaining resources for a big (stupid) last stand.

From a plot standpoint, though, I suspect that it's so that Misty, the Lookamancer, will be freed up. We've been shown Parson being kind to her, and told that Lookamancers can veil troops... so it's reasonable to assume that this is going somewhere.

If Stanley were at all a decent person, he would consider the option of surrender. He could sacrifice himself to save his followers, or, he could order them to surrender as soon as he's left Gobwin Knob. He's always had in mind the option of fleeing on his own. If anything confirms him as a tool, it's that he seems to expect his followers to die in a pointless last stand.

Well, first, Stanley is not even remotely a decent person. He's an insane megalomaniac out for ultimate power at any cost, and there's never been any suggestion that he views everyone else as anything but tools to this end.

But, even aside from that, remember that this is a game world. It's not clear what effect surrendering might have. Given that disbanding troops seems to cause them to disappear and die, it is entirely possible that a surrender order has the same effect. Surrendering in many other games just gives the troops to the side you're surrendering them to... why would Stanley want to do that? And even if he did, how would Ansom react? He might not trust the offer, disbanding the troops easily; or he might use them as disposable cannon fodder in the next battle. Not exactly a humane plan... Wargames generally don't have rules for humane actions of the sort you're describing.

[Arameus]

I don't know how this will all pan out, but I can say one thing with certainty: Pity for Wanda is contemptible. She is a monster. You cannot defend her brutality and sadism by saying it's merely part of her fetish- as if that were a defense! O weary reckoning!

I will continue to enjoy her destructive element in the plot, as well as look forward to her justice. In the meantime, the only thing those big, sad eyes are going to get from me is a shake of the head in shame for her; Hearts and Flowers, Hearts and Flowers. Unless she undergoes a complete 180-degree shift in her inner self, aka 'not being terrible,' that's not going to change.

On another subject, evidence builds for my pet theory, of which some of you are aware. I hope it continues that way!

[DrivinAllNight]

Hopefully Parson will take Sizemore and Wanda and get out for awhile, make a new alliance with themselves and others like them if thats possible, since they have to stay out of Stanley's sight to stay alive. It would be nice to see Parson and Co. have some sort of adventure independent of the looney leader Stanley.
Other than that, so far so good.

[The Old Hack]

I don't know how this will all pan out, but I can say one thing with certainty: Pity for Wanda is contemptible. She is a monster. You cannot defend her brutality and sadism by saying it's merely part of her fetish- as if that were a defense! O weary reckoning!

I do not quite agree. It is possible to feel sorry for someone without being said someone's apologist. There is little I find admirable in brutal abusive behavior, but I can still feel sadness for those who can't express themselves in any other way. *sigh*

[Xeticus]

I think Parsons was doing spectacularly and was turning things around. But Wanda's plan with Jillian cocked it up. I think Wanda overestimated Jillian's feelings for her and underestimated them for Ansom. Without Wanda's failure Parsons plan would have worked perfectly and he would have croaked Ansom. I feel real sorry for Tool and Parsons now. They gambled everything and it would have worked except for circumstances they can't control. Now they got a load of trouble coming their way.

[fendrin]

From a story standpoint, it's because he's lost all faith in everyone else, and is smashing things in a blind rage as he pulls in his last remaining resources for a big (stupid) last stand.

From a plot standpoint, though, I suspect that it's so that Misty, the Lookamancer, will be freed up. We've been shown Parson being kind to her, and told that Lookamancers can veil troops... so it's reasonable to assume that this is going somewhere.

I'm guessing that, like a wild animal with it's back against the wall, Stanley actually has a bright idea or two coming to the fore of his child-sized brain.

I'd say he is going to use Misty himself (and the foolamancer too).

2 possibilities:

1) He takes Misty with him when he flees so that the Foolamancer can veil them.

2) He will challenge Ansom one-on-one and use Misty and the Foolamancer to veil some dwagons that he will use to ambush Ansom.

Either way, Misty is going to get a bit closer to the action than I think she would really like to be.

Of course, just 'cause Stanley is thinking it doesn't mean he'll actually get to pull it off.

[Girl Wonder]

I don't know how this will all pan out, but I can say one thing with certainty: Pity for Wanda is contemptible. She is a monster. You cannot defend her brutality and sadism by saying it's merely part of her fetish- as if that were a defense! O weary reckoning!

I will continue to enjoy her destructive element in the plot, as well as look forward to her justice. In the meantime, the only thing those big, sad eyes are going to get from me is a shake of the head in shame for her; Hearts and Flowers, Hearts and Flowers. Unless she undergoes a complete 180-degree shift in her inner self, aka 'not being terrible,' that's not going to change.

I am very much in agreement that she deserves no one's pity, and she shan't get mine. However, just because she doesn't deserve it doesn't mean people aren't free to pity her out of the charitableness of their hearts. Sadly, such charitableness would, were Wanda real, be seen as an exploitable weakness of theirs, and she'd put it to her own uses for certain, at least the Wanda we've known up to now would, and really, the people who gave her their pity would have been asking for it, knowing what she is.

What Wanda is feeling right now is only the beginning of her just deserts, even if it is self-inflicted. And really, I hope at some point Jillian gives her what-for, for all the awful ways Wanda has abused her. Really, the only further interaction between the two of them that would be even remotely satisfying to me is utter and honest contrition and repentance on Wanda's part. We'll she if see can grow up enough to muster some.

[Wender]

I was just wondering whether Wanda would bend or break. That was quick. Not surprising, though, as that was a perfect storm of failure for her. From her last gambits (Parson and the spell on Jillian) to her one known human relationship to her very first disclosed motive (loyal service to Stanley) she lost everything. At once. Her loyalty to Stanley is one of the great question marks in the story, but it's obviously real and deep.

Sizemore proves again that he's made of good stuff. I'm glad he has someone in Parson who values him for what he knows and observes rather than dismissing him for his low station and lack of charisma.

Everything depends on what Stanley does next. If he bolts and takes the dwagons, Gobwin Knob still stands, and its crew survive. There is the detail that Stanley has life-and-death power over Parson, but if he's not around it's only a detail. Maybe the Archons could do something about it. I think this is likely, because it explains why Stanley did what he did: If the city is still fighting, his departure will be disguised and Parson will still be able to put the hurt on them on his way to defeat, and; if the trimancer set is dissolved then perhaps Team Ansom will never know about it, or never know enough to successfully replicate it. (They might, but the odds are better than if Team Ansom discovers it intact.)

If he stays and fights as an independent actor, the fog of war within GK gets much worse, but at least Parson has effectively complete and undisputed command. Wanda, once she is nursed back out of shock, can tell Parson what he's likely to do and Parson can try to plan around that. It's pretty obvious that Stanley will go after Ansom. Unfortunately for Stanley, separating him out from Jillian, Vinnie and the Archons will now be next to impossible: Team Ansom will probably discover in short order that Stanley is loose, and since he's their object the bulk of Ansom's attention will turn to defeating him, and GK will become something of an afterthought. They'll still take the city, but it won't be so urgent. Team Ansom still doesn't know about Parson.

The kicker? If Parson figures out some Hail Mary maneuver that gives Stanley a shot at the Arkenpliers which succeeds, Stanley will take all the credit, and Parson will have to learn a little more of Wanda's long-suffering patience.

Or, in the 10,000 or so scenarios that are more likely to happen, Wanda gets to be Jillian's prisoner for a while. That could be a real period of growth for Wanda if she's willing to examine and fix the issues behind her need for absolute control, or a great deal of moping, listless gloom if she isn't.

[Gitman00]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about Stanley breaking the link. Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a big deal? I think the evidence shows us that this happens every night. Notice that Misty isn't linked when Parson first speaks with her. Later on, Sizemore asks if they were able to link up this turn, implying that they're linked every turn, and unlinked when the turn is over. By breaking the link, Stanley may indeed be throwing a tantrum or preparing some final gambit, but he may just be calling it a day.

[Fineous Orlon]

Well, I have to congratulate our authors: they have the conviction of their set-up and story, and no deus ex machina saves Parson's plan nor the A dwagons.

Excellent. I have been really bummed about Parson's team's circumstances, and what was next [i.e., needing a DeM to save our Parson's bacon], these panels follow very well.

There is an injection of humanity/ character in these panels as well, Parson and Sizemore are not just the brains, they are concerned for their peers/ comrades.

I am disappointed in the calculator toy of Parson's. With Parson's quick analysis at the table at the end of the lake battle, the wrist-bookmaker probably did not take into account what units could be sent for reinforcements on the attackers' side. In that case, the wristbookie is not the great help it could be.

In other words, if things were overwhelming when Ansom and Vinnie arrived, the wristbookie did not take the possibility of Ansom's arrival into account, and Parson is going to have to learn a more effective way of using that tool.

He not only needs a manual for the world, he needs a manual for the toys the world gives him when it tries to help him.

Imagine if Parson had seen "overwhelming" on the wrist-calculator-bookie when Jillian and the Archons showed up, and Parson looked at the lake map and said, "That's not right... the attackers have to have more strength..., huh, what if the attackers can reinforce between rounds, ...Ansom is REALLY close..., ... Manpower dogpile Jillian NOW."

... at least at the earliest juncture that order would become effective.

Apparently, the wrist-bookie-calc only evaluates what is present RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Maybe Parson can input conditionals, like, "re-evaluate if the hex is reinforced by nearby hexes [or a specific nearby hex/ force]."

Perhaps, the wrist-bookie changed to "overwhelming" when Ansom and Vinnie entered the lake hex, then it wasn't actually very useful at all during this last battle, as in, "well, YEAH... [overwhelming, duh!]"

If he's going to get GOOD use out of the wrist-bookie, Parson needs to know/ learn how to best use it.

... of course, he could have been looking at his wrist-bookie when he said, "oh, boop, hurry" or he could have been looking at the map. Either way, the wrist bookie did not really help on Ansom's turn.

Maybe learning a way to make it help/ be more informative during the other sides' turn will become important...

*********************************************

I am also wondering if the Ultimate Warlord Summoning Spell is still acting as a character in the plot. Maybe Parson cannot be the ultimate warlord under a Tool like Stanley, so, Stanley must go...

[factotum]

By breaking the link, Stanley may indeed be throwing a tantrum or preparing some final gambit, but he may just be calling it a day.

If that were the case, why emphasise Stanley's command by giving it a panel to itself? That alone indicates there is more than usual significance to what he did there. Also, Misty was clearly not fully "unlinked" when Parson first spoke to her--she barely remembered her own name, and referred to herself only as "Lookamancer". I think the implication was that Parson speaking to her as an individual broke the link, which is why Sizemore was worried about if they'd managed to relink or not.

[Eva]

While I can understand Wanda's reaction ("She chose... Ansom... over me? Why? What does he have I can't give her?"), it's kind of mitigated by the fact Wanda's been manipulating Jillian all this time. Hasn't really been giving Jillian FULL choice in the matter; Ansom did. He never pushed Jillian, never manipulated her, always let her decide for herself what she wanted from him...

But Jillian liked it.

Maybe not all the time, or we wouldn't have had that last moment, but she doesn't like Ansom all the time, either. Her love is complicated. She's a barbarian.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Apparently, the wrist-bookie-calc only evaluates what is present RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Maybe Parson can input conditionals, like, "re-evaluate if the hex is reinforced by nearby hexes [or a specific nearby hex/ force]."

It's more likely that it only evaluates whatever Parson tells it to evaluate, so if Parson didn't consider the possibility of Ansom rushing to the rescue, it wouldn't have been factored into the calculation.

[fendrin]

I am very much in agreement that she deserves no one's pity, and she shan't get mine.

I see that our protagonist has more compassion than you. Perhaps this story will contain a lesson that is of value to you.

Or perhaps you should go re-read/re-watch the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring.

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about Stanley breaking the link. Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a big deal? I think the evidence shows us that this happens every night. Notice that Misty isn't linked when Parson first speaks with her. Later on, Sizemore asks if they were able to link up this turn, implying that they're linked every turn, and unlinked when the turn is over. By breaking the link, Stanley may indeed be throwing a tantrum or preparing some final gambit, but he may just be calling it a day.

You should go back to page 4 and read the discussion on this topic that I had with Mr_Wizard. If you have anything new to add to the conversation, I would like to hear it.

A plea:
I understand that many people do not want to read a long thread before posting, but please do! Otherwise the thread gets longer and longer as we hash out the same things over and over again, which is really kind of pointless and frustrating!

[Gitman00]

You should go back to page 4 and read the discussion on this topic that I had with Mr_Wizard. If you have anything new to add to the conversation, I would like to hear it.

Fair enough. I do think that the situation could be read both ways, however. Misty was already wandering around by herself when Parson talked to her, and the tactical display was turned off, so I don't think they were linked at that time. I think they're only linked when the display is on. It seems to me that Wanda's ire was provoked because Parson's conversation with Misty might prevent their being able to link up next turn; not that Parson personally unlinked them. "Tampered with their functioning" is a fairly ambiguous complaint.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Just thinking out loud here.

If Parson's upkeep is being paid by keep and the keep is taken by another enemy, wouldn't that mean they would decide his fate.

"So you're the one who gave him that brilliant tactic! How'd you like to work for us?"

[Bendal]

Just thinking out loud here.

If Parson's upkeep is being paid by keep and the keep is taken by another enemy, wouldn't that mean they would decide his fate.

"So you're the one who gave him that brilliant tactic! How'd you like to work for us?"

That's the way I see it too; Parson's existence is tied to the city, just as any other unit built by the city is. He cannot leave; if he does and the city falls, no food for him! Now, if Stanley leaves and the city fell he'd still probably exist, but where would his food come from?

[SteveMB]

2) Parson will successfully defend Gobwin Knob...the comic afterall is entitled the Battle for Gobwin Knob and what good would the comic be without the actual battle after it's named...all we've seen so far is a couple of skirmishes! Parson must win the battle as he's the protagonist and his life (upkeep) is intrinsicly related to the survuival of the Knob!

If Stanley gets captured/croaked or successfully cuts and runs, it's conceivable that Parson could end up working for the new management. (Most of Stanley's other minions would be in the same position -- with the possible exception of Wanda, whose future in that case is rather more problematic now that Jillian apparently realizes how Wanda has been taking advantage of her.)

Fair enough. I do think that the situation could be read both ways, however. Misty was already wandering around by herself when Parson talked to her, and the tactical display was turned off, so I don't think they were linked at that time. I think they're only linked when the display is on. It seems to me that Wanda's ire was provoked because Parson's conversation with Misty might prevent their being able to link up next turn; not that Parson personally unlinked them. "Tampered with their functioning" is a fairly ambiguous complaint.

For that matter "break your link" is ambiguous -- it could mean "shut down for the night" or it could mean something more permanent. The fact that the command got the final "punch" panel to itself might imply the latter, but doesn't rule out the former.

My interpretation of Misty's behavior last night is that the link was shut down, but the individual personalities of the Eyemancers have been severely weakened. Thus, Misty was able to act as an individual, but with only vague memories of the person she had been before. (If this gives you the creeps, take a number.) Interacting with her as an individual might start to rebuild bits of her mind, recovering what she had been before and/or developing a new independent personality, which would potentially interfere with the link (perhaps causing some sort of magic "backlash" from it, leading to the dire consequences Sizemore warned about).

[sihnfahl]

But Jillian liked it.

Whether she liked it or not is irrelevant. Wanda has been manipulating Jillian. Point blank fact. You even agree to it.

I think Ansom's better for Jillian. He's been honest about his feelings to her and has let her do what she wanted, even when people had doubts about her - even herself.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The Eyemancers remind me of the three psychics in "Minority Report."

I only saw that movie once, and that was several years ago. But does anyone think there might be a link er... connection?