Where did the Red Cloak come from?

[Riftwolf]

Not sure if there's a solid answer to how artifacts of a God manifest in D&D, but is there an origin story to the Cloak? Did TDO wear it, or something?

[Caerulea]

Yep, there is. Read Start of Darkness, it is excellent.

(Available in PDF form here)

Spoiler: Start of Darkness, summery of the origins of the cloak in particular

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The Cloak was created by The Dark One after he found out about the rifts, to teach his high priest (whoever wore the cloak) about the rifts, and the ritual he needed to achieve The Dark One's plan.

[hroþila]

Spoiler: SoD

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The Dark One crafted it after finding out about the Snarl, specifically as a way to equip his high priests with the knowledge necessary for the Plan (including the Ritual).

[Laze]

I was always wondering, does it actually makes it's user a better spellcaster, because Redcloak seems to be going up the levels on his own.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoils

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He managed to kill
a paladin immediately after taking the mantle.

Also why other gods are not making artifacts like that? It would be pretty useful.

[Caerulea]

I was always wondering, does it actually makes it's user a better spellcaster, because Redcloak seems to be going up the levels on his own.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoils

Show

He managed to kill
a paladin immediately after taking the mantle.

Also why other gods are not making artifacts like that? It would be pretty useful.

Mutual agreements not too? Not caring enough about any one specific cause? Maybe they do, and we haven't seen any others.

[Goblin_Priest]

There's not really much in SoD on the *origin* of the mantle. I've been wondering that myself a few times, actually.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was always wondering, does it actually makes it's user a better spellcaster, because Redcloak seems to be going up the levels on his own.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoils

Show

He managed to kill
a paladin immediately after taking the mantle.

Also why other gods are not making artifacts like that? It would be pretty useful.

Maybe there are rules/limitations regarding divine artifacts within the pantheons that the Dark One is not beholden to.

[factotum]

Or there *are* other divine artifacts, but they don't appear in this story because they're not relevant to it. One does wonder how creating an actual physical artifact works with the "no interference except through clerics" rule, mind you--did the Dark One have to send a vision to a cleric to make the artifact, and then channel his power through them to imbue it with his purpose?

[The Pilgrim]

Also why other gods are not making artifacts like that? It would be pretty useful.

Who says they aren't?

[Laze]

Who says they aren't?

If Hela had one, it would be extremely useful to use it already. The same thing with Thor and Odin. They want Durkon to achieve his mission, so a support like that would be nice.
Redcloack's action doesn't seem to violate gods' agreement, because they didn't involved personally.

[hroþila]

If Hela had one, it would be extremely useful to use it already. The same thing with Thor and Odin. They want Durkon to achieve his mission, so a support like that would be nice.
Redcloack's action doesn't seem to violate gods' agreement, because they didn't involved personally.

It's quite possible that Hel created such an artifact for one of her previous high priests, and that it was lost or destroyed. I find it very likely that there are rules about how many artifacts a god can create.

[The Pilgrim]

Artifacts are powerful, game-breaking items, whose main function is basically to serve as plot devices. To let more than one appear at the same time means to downplay their effect.

[Laze]

Artifacts are powerful, game-breaking items, whose main function is basically to serve as plot devices. To let more than one appear at the same time means to downplay their effect.

Yeah, I think it's somewhat significant that Crimson Mantle is so far the only plot defining artifact in the whole story (except Cloister headband and maybe Roy's sword. So it's the only one, except all the others.)

[Lacuna Caster]

Maybe there are rules/limitations regarding divine artifacts within the pantheons that the Dark One is not beholden to.

It's quite possible that Hel created such an artifact for one of her previous high priests, and that it was lost or destroyed. I find it very likely that there are rules about how many artifacts a god can create.

Yeah, but if the Dark One is persona non grata already, why would he care about the rules that apply within pantheons? The mere existence of the Crimson Mantle is already a massive violation of one of their core agreements (i.e, "don't talk about the Snarl").

[hroþila]

Yeah, but if the Dark One is persona non grata already, why would he care about the rules that apply within pantheons? The mere existence of the Crimson Mantle is already a massive violation of one of their core agreements (i.e, "don't talk about the Snarl").

Because there might be physical rules involved (i.e. he might be literally incapable of creating another one), because breaking enough rules might still have consequences even if destruction and ostracism are not on the table, or for any other number of reasons. Regardless, he's already made one – this was about Hel/other gods not doing the same, after all.

[factotum]

He's not persona non grata with the other Evil gods--they defended him when Thor etc. wanted to destroy him. If he didn't play by the rules they'd be less likely to do that.

[Chronos]

The Cloister headband is a focus, not an artifact. All of the power that goes into the Cloister spell comes from the 21st+ level spellcaster who's casting it. And the Greenhilt Sword is a magic item, and a powerful one, but also not an artifact.

The Gates are closer to being artifacts, but even they are only epic magic items: Extremely powerful compared to anything non-epic, but still made by mortals.

The only other things we've seen, besides the Crimson Mantle, which even might be artifacts, are Banjo's banjo, Giggles' slapstick, and the Ming that Frudu was trying to destroy that the Teevo showed Xykon.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, but if the Dark One is persona non grata already, why would he care about the rules that apply within pantheons? The mere existence of the Crimson Mantle is already a massive violation of one of their core agreements (i.e, "don't talk about the Snarl").

My post says he's not beholden to the pantheons' internal rules.

[Lacuna Caster]

My post says he's not beholden to the pantheons' internal rules.

You're right, I misread that.

[Fyraltari]

I simply assume that making an artifact consumes a lot of a god's power (and probably time), and therefore they don't unless they have damn good reason to. Which would be another reason why the Dark One has slim chances of making it to the next world.

Besides these artifacts might be still "part" of the god in some way (like how in the Elder Scrolls Daedric Artifact are more of an extension of their Daedric Princes than idependent objects) and thus making some on a doomed world would be actively detrimental to the gods' health.

[b_jonas]

Yeah, I think it's somewhat significant that Crimson Mantle is so far the only plot defining artifact in the whole story (except Cloister headband and maybe Roy's sword. So it's the only one, except all the others.)

There's also the five gates sealing the Snarl, Dorukan's Amulet, the crown of charisma that Xykon stole from master Fyron, the five seemingly ordinary gray stones that Haley couldn't secure for herself, and most importantly, the Ming. How could you miss the Ming? Redcloak explicitly says that it's a plot-central artifact. Some people also speculated that Durkon would get an artifact war hammer (perhaps the Mjöllnir itself) from Thor, but I for one don't believe that. One of Trigak's body parts might also be an artifact.

The Gates are closer to being artifacts, but even they are only epic magic items: Extremely powerful compared to anything non-epic, but still made by mortals.

and the Ming that Frudu was trying to destroy that the Teevo showed Xykon.

Yes, that. And Redcloak implies that the Gates are artifacts because he says the Ming is an example of other plot-central artifacts.

[Goblin_Priest]

Or there *are* other divine artifacts, but they don't appear in this story because they're not relevant to it. One does wonder how creating an actual physical artifact works with the "no interference except through clerics" rule, mind you--did the Dark One have to send a vision to a cleric to make the artifact, and then channel his power through them to imbue it with his purpose?

Indeed... who crafted the Crimson Mantle? Where? When? How? Why?

We know what purpose it serves now, but how did it get to this point? If the Dark One made it, how did he get it on the Material Plane...?

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't recall exactly, but didn't the dark one melt down or kill any servants sent to him by loki and make stuff out of them?

What did he destroy then if its not that?

[Goblin_Priest]

Most artifacts, if I remember correctly, were important to the gods before their deification. At least, those relating to deities. At least, some of them...

Like the Sword and Eye of Vecna.

The Dark One did wear a cloak when alive, and when killed. It'd have made a lot of sens if that was the same cloak that later became the crimsom mantle. But... that cloak isn't red. It's more... pink, or magenta. Arguably those are shades of red... but it's clearly not crimson, or any way close to the hue used by Redcloak's red cloak.

Oh, lol... re-reading the book:

Spoiler: SoD

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page 43: Being unable to act directly in elven lands, the Dark One created the Crimson Mantle, an artifact of great power, and gave it to his high priest.

Still vague.

[b_jonas]

Like the Sword and Eye of Vecna.

I don't believe there's a Sword of Vecna. All the Vecna artifacts are body parts that replace yours, like the Eye of Vecna, the Hand of Vecna, the Foot of Vecna, the Kneecap of Vecna, the Buttocks of Vecna, the Kidney of Vecna, the Other Hand of Vecna, etc. Trigak probably has dropped some artifact body parts like that too.

[hamishspence]

I would guess that the Sword of Kas (Kas was Vecna's right-hand vampire, who turned against him), which was used once to kill Vecna, is what's being thought of.

In Heroes of Horror, one of the possible campaign plots is

"Villain has the Hand of Vecna, the Eye of Vecna, and the Sword of Kas, and is wreaking havoc using all three."

[Goblin_Priest]

I would guess that the Sword of Kas (Kas was Vecna's right-hand vampire, who turned against him), which was used once to kill Vecna, is what's being thought of.

In Heroes of Horror, one of the possible campaign plots is

"Villain has the Hand of Vecna, the Eye of Vecna, and the Sword of Kas, and is wreaking havoc using all three."

Ah, yes, that's what I was thinking of. The Sword of Kas, used to betray Vecna.

Honestly, major artifacts never really felt, to me... all that powerful. A few situationally good powers, sure. But compared to what a high level non-epic character could make himself (+10 weapon, for example), the Sword of Kas just feels like an annoying unoptimized weapon.

Orbs of Dragon Kind, too.. and all other artifacts, iirc.

Disclaimer: I don't recall exact stats.

[hamishspence]

Honestly, major artifacts never really felt, to me... all that powerful. A few situationally good powers, sure. But compared to what a high level non-epic character could make himself (+10 weapon, for example), the Sword of Kas just feels like an annoying unoptimized weapon.

The Sword of Kas is one of the very few +6 weapon artifacts out there - which means it goes right through the Damage Reduction of anything with Damage Reduction X/epic.

And it's impossible to create a weapon with a +6 or higher bonus, without the Craft Epic Arms & Armour feat.

While you can have a "+10 equivalent" non epic weapon, 5 of those pluses, have to be other properties rather than + to hit, if you want the weapon to have non-epic price.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm

As a +6 Unholy Vorpal Keen weapon, it's basically a +14 weapon. Add in its +10 Str increase (equivalent to a mid-range Belt of Epic Strength) and it would cost a heck of a lot for an epic caster to manufacture an equivalent of it.

[Goblin_Priest]

The Sword of Kas is one of the very few +6 weapon artifacts out there - which means it goes right through the Damage Reduction of anything with Damage Reduction X/epic.

And it's impossible to create a weapon with a +6 or higher bonus, without the Craft Epic Arms & Armour feat.

While you can have a "+10 equivalent" non epic weapon, 5 of those pluses, have to be other properties rather than + to hit, if you want the weapon to have non-epic price.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm

As a +6 Unholy Vorpal Keen weapon, it's basically a +14 weapon. Add in its +10 Str increase (equivalent to a mid-range Belt of Epic Strength) and it would cost a heck of a lot for an epic caster to manufacture an equivalent of it.

Alright, dug up a PDF of the DMG:

The Sword of Kas is a +6 unholy keen vorpal longsword. It grants the wielder a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength. The sword is intelligent (Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 16, Ego 34) and chaotic evil. It can be used to cast the following spells, once per day each: call lightning (10d6 points of damage, reflex DC 14 half), blasphemy, and unhallow. Once per week it can be used to slay living.

YES, you'd need to be epic and it would cost a bazillion to make this item. But why would you make this item? +6 is nice, but it's a tiny difference over +5. Might make a difference for some DR, but in a non-epic game, I don't think that'd ever come into play. Unholy in kind of meh, unless you are playing some kind of "kill all angels" campaign. keen is kind of weak, those who will benefit the most from crits are kind of expected to have improved critical anyways. Vorpal is ridiculously unreliable, and sucks up a whole +5 value to itself.

Sure, it might be a +14 equivalent weapon, but for most fights, it will only perform marginally better than a +5 longsword. The CL10 and saves on the spells are underwhelming, at lvl 20 you probably would never use any of them anyways.

A good character would take 4 negative levels just from holding this thing... a non CE would take 3. Further restricting its use.

With a 34 Ego, though, even at lvl 20 a fighter is likely to succumb to it, leaving the PC a slave to the item.

The only nice thing about it is the +10 to str, though it kind of sucks that it doesn't stack with the +6 the character is likely to already have.


Don't get me wrong, it stacks on a lot of power. But it really largely feels like a "I need an item to make my boss stronger, but which will be barely usable by the PCs in order to help prevent power creep and imbalance in the group". It stacks on so many meh bonuses, so much stuff is circumstantial, and so many penalties to those who don't fit a specific mold... Like, yea, of course, if you build a lvl 20 CE villain specifically around this item, you can get a good build that will make the most of it, that will focus on using longswords, that won't bother with a belt of str or improved critical, and so on. But unless the party tank focused on longswords and happens to also be CE, he's gonna hesitate about whether he wants to use this thing at all.

Most other items are far worse, though. Their abilities tend to kind of suck in the hands of a PC, have ridiculous drawbacks, and/or serious limitations in usage. The Hands and Eye of Vecna, if you are lucky enough to have both, give you -2 dex, -2 cha, -2 wis. The Mace of Cuthbert is basically just a +5 weapon with 3x +2 buffs, two of which are alignment-based and one only works against undead. The orbs of dragonkind will make them hate you and chase you, you get protection against only one of their abilities, and they start making the save against the domination fairly regularly once they hit the CR15 bar, not to mention it can make your AC and saves worse than what you'd otherwise have.

[hamishspence]

I would agree that it's the kind of artifact designed not to be used by PCs.