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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    I mean, let's be real, as someone said above, Serini was a rogue. There's a 0% chance that the gate is actually behind any of those doors.

    (Come to think of it, why are the gates even accessible? Why not encase it entirely in that special everything-proof stone she has?)

    ...come to think of it, the location of the gates are from her diary. Is there any reason she'd even have to write down the actual location of her gate? One of the themes of the tomb is that Kraagor's sacrifice was forgotten, and the fact that nobody even remembers where he died would fit in with that. I mean, narratively "haha, oops, Serini's gate isn't here! You have no idea where it is!" doesn't really work storywise, but it's a thought.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-01-03 at 03:10 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    I mean, let's be real, as someone said above, Serini was a rogue. There's a 0% chance that the gate is actually behind any of those doors.
    Serini wanted a monument to physical strength in remembrance of Kraagor. It would defeat the purpose of the tomb if it wasn't approachable as a massive slug fest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    (Come to think of it, why are the gates even accessible? Why not encase it entirely in that special everything-proof stone she has?)
    Repairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    One of the themes of the tomb is that Kraagor's sacrifice was forgotten
    No, it is not. Its theme is that his sacrifice should NOT be forgotten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Serini wanted a monument to physical strength in remembrance of Kraagor. It would defeat the purpose of the tomb if it wasn't approachable as a massive slug fest.


    Repairs.


    No, it is not. Its theme is that his sacrifice should NOT be forgotten.

    Grey Wolf
    I eman, logically speaking, it would make the most sense to have it so that, say, touching a certain set of doors in a certain order opens the path. That way, you can access it, and your enemies can't. But, then, people don't act perfectly logically, and, if any of the Scribblers had, things wouldn't have gotten this bad in the first place.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I eman, logically speaking, it would make the most sense to have it so that, say, touching a certain set of doors in a certain order opens the path. That way, you can access it, and your enemies can't. But, then, people don't act perfectly logically, and, if any of the Scribblers had, things wouldn't have gotten this bad in the first place.
    A complex enough pattern that can't be found by coincidence would also need to be written down. That's just asking for her diary to fall into the wrong hands and give the information away. The doors are secured, in a way that Kraagor would approve of, which is also perfectly logical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    A complex enough pattern that can't be found by coincidence would also need to be written down. That's just asking for her diary to fall into the wrong hands and give the information away. The doors are secured, in a way that Kraagor would approve of, which is also perfectly logical.

    Grey Wolf
    It could be something as simple as a lever at the end of all doors of a certain shape, all of which need to be flipped to open the path at the end of a door that's a different color than the others. An intruder might not make the connection and even if they do they still have to fight their way through many doors anyway, and it's easy to keep track of if you need to visit the gate for some reason.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    It could be something as simple as a lever at the end of all doors of a certain shape, all of which need to be flipped to open the path at the end of a door that's a different color than the others. An intruder might not make the connection and even if they do they still have to fight their way through many doors anyway, and it's easy to keep track of if you need to visit the gate for some reason.
    I don't dispute that Serini might have put in a roguish shortcut to access the gate, BTW, just dispute that it's the only way to get to the gate. I think that Serini would not disrespect Kraagor's memory by not making the gate reachable via sheer force of arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    One of the members of the Order of the Scribble was obsessed with deception. He wasn't a rogue and his Gate has already been destroyed. There's no indication that Serini valued deception at all; to what extent she had a theme in the Order of the Scribble, it currently appears to have been--what the others needed and ultimately didn't have--cooperation. "A rogue must be super-deceptive" is the same kind of shallow stereotype that dictates that Roy should be acting more like Thog; Serini could easily have been a Lawful Good rogue with 0 ranks in Bluff.

    (Though Haley and Vaarsuvius both cleave to their class stereotypes.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    In fact, we know that she was Lawful Good, because she considered multiclassing to paladin.

    Though, just for the sake of completeness... She does appear not to have any ranks in Bluff, but then, that's just what it would look like, if she were really, really good at bluffing.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it is not. Its theme is that his sacrifice should NOT be forgotten.
    Check out the inscription on his statue. It doesn't say that his sacrifice shouldn't be forgotten, it says that it was forgotten.

    I think it's very likely that the version of the story passed down by the Paladins was not 100% accurate, or that she didn't fully express her feelings at the time.

    (I also like this theory because that would mean the statue was a clue and that Team Evil completely missed the incongruously odd nature of the inscription when they were vandalizing it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    In fact, we know that she was Lawful Good, because she considered multiclassing to paladin.
    Her party members told her it was a bad idea, which might mean that she didn't actually meet the requirements. And it's also possible (even likely) that she wasn't serious.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-01-03 at 12:15 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Kraagor said "I don't know if you're the paladin type, Serini." That should not be expanded to "her party members, plural, told her it was a bad idea."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Serini was the one to suggest the five of them should retire, pick a gate and never contact the other Scribblers, but she kept adventuring and she stayed in touch with Girard. We know very little of her, but what we do know doesn't point towards Lawful.
    ungelic is us

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    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Serini was the one to suggest the five of them should retire, pick a gate and never contact the other Scribblers, but she kept adventuring and she stayed in touch with Girard. We know very little of her, but what we do know doesn't point towards Lawful.
    Which makes it pretty interesting that, for all Girard's suspicions, Soon was the only one who didn't violate the oath to never make contact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Check out the inscription on his statue. It doesn't say that his sacrifice shouldn't be forgotten, it says that it was forgotten.
    That's what the inscription says, yes. Between the emotional context of the scene in which that inscription was made and how pointing out that someone was forgotten by literally engraving it in stone has a certain level of inherent contradiction to it which suggests not to take it at face value. Which in this case works out to "he was a hero who's sacrifice shouldn't be forgotten, but the nature of his heroism meant it had to be", from the embittered position of other people working in that same secrecy.
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Serini wanted a monument to physical strength in remembrance of Kraagor. It would defeat the purpose of the tomb if it wasn't approachable as a massive slug fest.
    I should point out that in Shojo's story, it says:
    Quote Originally Posted by OOTS 277
    She decided that she would build a tomb for Kraagor, and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might.
    It does not say she built the tomb at, over, around, or even near the Gate. The likelihood, yes, is that the tomb is intended to guard the Gate. The art suggests that both would be found in a cold climate. It is perfectly sensible to go to the trouble and expense of such a complex construction in order to protect the Gate.

    Nevertheless, the comic doesn't say so explicitly. If one is looking for a loophole, this might be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I should point out that in Shojo's story, it says:

    It does not say she built the tomb at, over, around, or even near the Gate. The likelihood, yes, is that the tomb is intended to guard the Gate. The art suggests that both would be found in a cold climate. It is perfectly sensible to go to the trouble and expense of such a complex construction in order to protect the Gate.

    Nevertheless, the comic doesn't say so explicitly. If one is looking for a loophole, this might be it.
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey_Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey_Wolf. He's probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey_Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey_Wolf. He's probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Thor damnit. I may have (with your permission) to add this to my sig somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Thor damnit. I may have (with your permission) to add this to my sig somewhere.

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    Permission granted. Now please excuse me to Squee.

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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't dispute that Serini might have put in a roguish shortcut to access the gate, BTW, just dispute that it's the only way to get to the gate. I think that Serini would not disrespect Kraagor's memory by not making the gate reachable via sheer force of arms.

    Grey Wolf
    Serini was also the voice of reason to the scribblers. I find it plausible that she'd understand the gravity of what she was defending, and would not be above putting a trick on things. Especially since she was defending something that Kraagor died in order to fix in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Serini was also the voice of reason to the scribblers. I find it plausible that she'd understand the gravity of what she was defending, and would not be above putting a trick on things. Especially since she was defending something that Kraagor died in order to fix in the first place.
    Notably, as others have pointed out, she seems to have done what they should have been doing all along: pool their strengths. The multiple doors, only one, or none, of which have the answer channels Girard's fondness for illusions and deception. The memorial aspect matches Soon's obsession with honor. The gate has magic on it to keep Xykon from being able to bypass it, like Dorukan's. The tomb is in the middle of harsh wilderness, and filled with deadly monsters harnessing the most powerful parts of nature, showing a respect for nature, as Liriam would have, and Kraggor..Well, that's obvious. She took all their "themes," illusions, honor, arcane magic, nature, and physical strength, and pooled them to create an uber dungeon. If only they could have done that with all of them, things might not have gotten this bad. Almost as if the comic's trying to send a message about the importance of cooperation and not letting petty grudges get in the way of the greater good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Though, just for the sake of completeness... She does appear not to have any ranks in Bluff, but then, that's just what it would look like, if she were really, really good at bluffing.
    Now you've filled my head with a whole bunch of unlikely plot twists (Serini was working for the Dark One all along! Serini was Loki in disguise all along! Serini was from the Snarl's world all along!)

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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    Now you've filled my head with a whole bunch of unlikely plot twists (Serini was working for the Dark One all along! Serini was Loki in disguise all along! Serini was from the Snarl's world all along!)
    Serini was Kraggor all along
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Serini was Kraggor all along
    I was going to suggest that Oona is Serini, but your suggestion takes a lot more skill...
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey_Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey_Wolf. He's probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    As I said, I think it unlikely myself. It’s not the kind of wordplay gotcha game that’s likely to come up. There’s no good reason to think ithe theory is true. However, it’s as well to remind ourselves where the text ends and where our assumptions — even very confident ones — begin.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Also, the massive slugfest can still serve to murder anyone who comes looking for the gate, adding to its defenses while putting the actual gate elsewhere. Or the actual hidden door could have even more monsters behind it.

    But either way, I totally don't think the gate is behind any of those doors. Why would she do that? Kraagor's belief in physical strength doesn't require being stupid. And putting the gate in an obvious place is stupid. If you're going to set up a big "THE GATE IS HERE" display, you put the gate somewhere else.

    Also, again - her statements about how she's defending her gate come from her. If we're assuming she's willing to be deceptive - and, again, regardless of her alignment, she was a rogue, so she absolutely was - there's no reason she'd give anyone the full details, especially knowing that one of them is a Paladin who won't lie to others, making him a security risk.

    If she's going to add a twist at the end to add another layer of security, she's obviously not going to tell anyone. That would defeat the whole purpose of it.

    (There's also a narrative issue to consider here. Why have the defenses on Kraagor's gate be built by Serini if they're going to be exactly the defenses Kraagor himself would build? What's the narrative purpose of having an extra member of the Order of the Scribble, and to have Serini, a rogue, building the gate for Kraagor, the fighter? I mean, there's a lot of possible answers to that, and "it's just part of the story for other reasons" is valid, but it's something to consider.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-01-07 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    and, again, regardless of her alignment, she was a rogue, so she absolutely was
    Again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    One of the members of the Order of the Scribble was obsessed with deception. He wasn't a rogue and his Gate has already been destroyed. There's no indication that Serini valued deception at all; to what extent she had a theme in the Order of the Scribble, it currently appears to have been--what the others needed and ultimately didn't have--cooperation. "A rogue must be super-deceptive" is the same kind of shallow stereotype that dictates that Roy should be acting more like Thog; Serini could easily have been a Lawful Good rogue with 0 ranks in Bluff.

    (Though Haley and Vaarsuvius both cleave to their class stereotypes.)
    Bolding the parts you're ignoring to act like my post was just "she might have been Lawful Good."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Doors and Statistics and Monty Haul - Is MitD helping?

    Last I checked, Bluff was a class skill for rogues, not a class feature. Serini could have easily gone through 20+ levels without ever putting ranks in it.
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-01-07 at 11:25 AM.
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