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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    I'll preface this a little bit by admitting this is inspired by an annoying workplace woe:
    I work at a place that, among other things, offers electronic photo printing services. We have kiosks (all-in-one style desktop computers) that guests use to upload photos to send to the company website that the company sends back to us to print. Three of the kiosk's USB ports are occupied by a multifunction Digital Camera Memory Card Reader, a CD/DVD reader, and a scanner. One of the USB ports is always broken, don't ask why or how it just always is. The remaining two ports are reserved for cables for guests to learn how to download images from cloud services and then connect their smartphones to the kiosks to upload photos. This almost works out, we have one cable that's only for Apple 30-pin smartphones, because yes we have a large enough customer base that still uses those, and another cable that connects to Micro-USB phones with dongle adapters to connect that to Apple's Lightning or USB-C ports.

    The problem I'm facing, is that I get called from the other side of work to "troubleshoot" the "broken" kiosk when guests plug only the dongle into their phone and not the cable. Or that someone's left the lightning dongle plugged into the Micro-USB cord, so we "don't have the right dealie" for their phone. Dongles are very hard to understand. I know that's a prime example of a first-world problem, and that it is also impossible to foolproof anything, but at this point I would gladly buy my own cables myself and demonstrate a rude gesture to my boss if there is an objection to a cable that just had, like, all three ends on one cable, without dongles. In other words, we have this, but I think if we had one of these I would spend less time running across the place just to plug in a dongle.

    Unfortunately, that's... apparently a big order? After diving down listing after listing of hydra, 3-in-1, or cerberus USB cables, I keep seeing the same thing in the product description: "Cable will only charge devices, not intended for data transfer." Since I need the cable to primarily transfer data, practically every 3-in-1 cable I find won't work for what I need, and the few that do leave me to suspect shoddy quality or outright misleading statements to sell a product. The next solution, add more USB ports/USB hub, is off the table as the proprietary kiosk software just doesn't like having more hubs than expected and the motherboard has no expansion slots.

    But this shouldn't be that hard, right? I mean, we already have a MicroUSB cable, and we have two adapters that plug in on the end. Couldn't I just cut three MicroUSB cables, toss two of the USB-A ends away, strip the wires, solder all the matching colors together, heatshrink or electrical tape all the ugly soldering, cut off the dongles and just glue them right on to two of the MicroUSB ends? I have a soldering iron somewhere, I've just never soldered anything electrical before and have it work- nor do I have a Lightning or USB-C device of my own to test at home. Is it something like the tachyon particles will reverse their polarity and cause a thermonuclear inversion of muons if two devices were plugged in to such a cable at once, thus frying both devices? I know the cable part is just wires, but something so simple makes me think I don't understand something. Are the cables I'm looking for just called something specifically different?
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Having actually repaired a few USB cables and some others, one of the big issues you run into is that many of these very small lines, rather than having a normal plastic case it is more like a... lets just go with paint, for lack of a better term, insulation. So they are very hard to strip, like way more of a pain than you would think stripping a wire ever could be. So it is just going to be a PITA, and depending on your skill may simply not be possible. Of course maybe the cable you have doesn't use those types of insulated wires, I most assuredly haven't seen every type.

    But what is bigger issue, and why you haven't seen these cables already made, is that the transfer rates are pretty much the maximum the cables can handle. So it takes very little disturbance to kill it. That is why long USB cables are very uncommon, or only used for charging. Transferring power across the cables is easy, but the noise increase of longer cables is a big issue for the data side of things. And your splice is going to increase that noise by a huge amount, even if you were really good. That is why you don't see pre-made cables with those same splices. Also why even though there are a lot of individual adapters for USB, there aren't many multi-type adapters.

    I'm pretty sure most power transfers via USB doesn't even look at the data lines*, so there is a very good chance those "charging" cables don't even have wires on the pins for data.

    *Apple might just because they like to be difficult, but I don't honestly know.


    So that is why they make the multi-type things as hubs rather than just doing it with a cable. And if hubs aren't an option then you're just stuck with it being a pain.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Unfortunately, because of the way you want it to work and the different types of connectors it needs, if the cable you're looking for exists, it probably contains a USB hub.

    My suggestion to you is to bundle the several cables together with brightly colored zip-ties. That way at least if they don't lose it, they'll always have the right "dealie" available. Also, you should probably color code and/or number the corresponding pairs of ends if you do this if the cable are colored at all alike. And if you use a color code, make it colorblind-friendly.
    Last edited by gomipile; 2019-01-03 at 11:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    As soon as you idiot proof it, humans will invent a better idiot :0

    I don't know an answer. Color coded is good. And might reduce your PEBKAC some. I don't know how you can eliminate it completely though :(

    For reference, my goto cable and adapter site is monoprice.com. I've given up splicing cables some years ago, the damn wires are so small I can barely see them without a magnifying glass! Besides, what was said before about signal loss etc sounds reasonable to me.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Yeah, Monoprice is a good importer to deal with. I have one of their mini 3d printers and some cables from them, and I have no complaints.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Well, rats. Thanks for all chiming in and dealing with my ignorance. Maybe I can talk the cosmetics counter to loan me some nail polish or something for color-coding, though colorblind-safe colors can't work because our sophisticated clientele is convinced that yellow does not exist and the customer is always right, so as far as I know the colorblind-safe palette would be just... Blue. And in unrelated news, I'll be getting a Monoprice 3D printer myself in a few days, thank you Baader-Meinhof phenominon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    But what is bigger issue, and why you haven't seen these cables already made, is that the transfer rates are pretty much the maximum the cables can handle. So it takes very little disturbance to kill it. That is why long USB cables are very uncommon, or only used for charging. Transferring power across the cables is easy, but the noise increase of longer cables is a big issue for the data side of things. And your splice is going to increase that noise by a huge amount, even if you were really good. That is why you don't see pre-made cables with those same splices. Also why even though there are a lot of individual adapters for USB, there aren't many multi-type adapters.
    Just another question out of desperation here, is there a chance of obtaining just the hardware at the ends of a microUSB cable, and supplying the wires themselves from elsewhere? Or does the way USB "work" just require tiny cables that can't handle an expert splice, let alone an amateur's really lousy soldering attempt?
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Just another question out of desperation here, is there a chance of obtaining just the hardware at the ends of a microUSB cable, and supplying the wires themselves from elsewhere? Or does the way USB "work" just require tiny cables that can't handle an expert splice, let alone an amateur's really lousy soldering attempt?
    Yes, you can buy just the connectors, even from Amazon. You'll probably pay as much for a pack of connectors as for entire cables though.

    I don't know all of the technical details for USB, but you could probably do some things to help reduce the noise. I'm not sure how much tolerance they have for noise, it could be more of an issue of "don't put two connectors on because then inevitably someone will hook two devices to the same cable at the same time" and that will cause other problems. If you connect two USB3 devices and the extra noise on the line means they can only communicate at USB2 or USB1 levels, I'm not sure if they can auto-negotiate that or not. The effects of electrical noise can be very hard to predict. But in the end most data transfer speeds are pretty much dictated based on noise, so they probably don't have a lot of tolerance for more.

    If you've got $20 to spare and some free time... buy a couple cables and cut them up and give it a try. As long as you are sure you don't have any shorts, it really can't hurt anything, but it is hard to say if it will actually work. And it *might* hurt something if two people connect phones to the same cable at the same time (unlikely but possible) so keep that in mind.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Yes, you can buy just the connectors, even from Amazon. You'll probably pay as much for a pack of connectors as for entire cables though.
    The motherboard junction is also much more spaced apart and might be more splice friendly.
    something like that

    A poundland style hub might also be exploitable, although I can't see a way.

    There definitely is a surprisingly short limit to length though, which limits options further.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    There definitely is a surprisingly short limit to length though, which limits options further.
    My understanding is the USB specification limits cable length to 5 meters. But allows USB hub chaining (or 'Active' extension cables) up to 30 meters.

    A good explanation is here; https://superuser.com/questions/6474...of-a-usb-cable

    As for the limit, it's not really short, not given what USB cables were originally designed for. They were designed to connect peripheral computer devices to your desktop. Like a mouse, keyboard or external drive. Not for running speakers, or for use as charging cables or video display cables, connecting game controllers, or any of the myriad of other uses they are now being used for. In a way, they were too successful that they have grown way beyond their original intention.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    It sounds like the correct solution would be to have one cable for each type of device. Rather than having a conversion dongle, which seems to be most of the problem, have one cable each for micro-USB, old-style Apple, and new-style Apple connections. Lacking space to plug in three cables just means you need a USB hub. I imagine for this task you wouldn't need a powered hub, so it should be easy to hook up. You could bundle the cables up into one with heat-shrink or cable ties, which should make it obvious to most people that they should plug in the one that fits.

    If you can't get straight cable converter for the new Apple connection, just glue the dongle permanently to the end of a USB cable, so people can't get confused by it.

    Splicing the cables manually is not going to work. Extra bits of dumb wire hanging off the cable will probably mess with the signals. Impulses will bounce of the end of the unused cable and interfere with the real signal. There is no point spending time soldering something like this when a $15 USB hub (2 or 3) will do the job and actually work.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-01-05 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    There is no point spending time soldering something like this when a $15 USB hub (2 or 3) will do the job and actually work.
    Except that the OP explicitly stated that these kiosk systems will not work with hubs.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Eeyup, USB hubs are not possible, the proprietary software just won't access any media ports after what it has down for what has already been mentioned. It'll sometimes even just shut down the computer if it detects a USB hub, as a "Virus protection countermeasure."

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    The motherboard junction is also much more spaced apart and might be more splice friendly.
    something like that
    Would love to do it, have done it on home computers in the past, can't do it, the all-in-one form factor doesn't have any bays to put the ports in, and the mobo doesn't have any spare 9 pins to provide the additional USB hookups. I would gladly replace the whole dang thing with a motherboard that would offer this potential, but corporate security would then have to give me all their network security information to get it up and working with our printer systems, which will happen approximately never.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Yes, you can buy just the connectors, even from Amazon. You'll probably pay as much for a pack of connectors as for entire cables though.

    I don't know all of the technical details for USB, but you could probably do some things to help reduce the noise. I'm not sure how much tolerance they have for noise, it could be more of an issue of "don't put two connectors on because then inevitably someone will hook two devices to the same cable at the same time" and that will cause other problems. If you connect two USB3 devices and the extra noise on the line means they can only communicate at USB2 or USB1 levels, I'm not sure if they can auto-negotiate that or not. The effects of electrical noise can be very hard to predict. But in the end most data transfer speeds are pretty much dictated based on noise, so they probably don't have a lot of tolerance for more.

    If you've got $20 to spare and some free time... buy a couple cables and cut them up and give it a try. As long as you are sure you don't have any shorts, it really can't hurt anything, but it is hard to say if it will actually work. And it *might* hurt something if two people connect phones to the same cable at the same time (unlikely but possible) so keep that in mind.
    First, thanks for putting up with the stupid question. I'm absolutely certain these are not USB3 ports, and would not be surprised if they were USB1.1 ports. Regardless... Yeah, I understand, it's not worth trying since I can't test it to guarantee it myself, they'll certainly try to plug in three phones at once, if not they'll try to eat the cables themselves. Oh well.
    Last edited by OracleofWuffing; 2019-01-06 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Fix broken quote tag
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Except that the OP explicitly stated that these kiosk systems will not work with hubs.
    Ah, yeah, missed that. In that case I don't see any easy solution.

    There are some rare devices for switching USB devices that aren't hubs, mostly used for testing stuff I think, but they require a physical switch. No chance anyone would know to switch that.

    It might be possible to fool the software into not seeing a USB hub. This would likely be quite hard, as you would need to replace whatever system DLL it is using to enumerate USB devices with a custom DLL that gives back modified data, while making sure that other programs only load the real DLL. And the software might have further checks to detect anyone doing that. At that point you're basically cracking it though, and that would likely be against the licence agreement.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-01-06 at 01:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Could you post a photo of the default configuration of the cable and dongles in the kiosk, along with a caption: "Can't find the right connection for your phone? Make certain all the dongles are disconnected."

    I realize that, as an engineer, I'm almost required to go with the engineered solution, but this just might be the simplest fix to the problem.
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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Could you post a photo of the default configuration of the cable and dongles in the kiosk, along with a caption: "Can't find the right connection for your phone? Make certain all the dongles are disconnected."

    I realize that, as an engineer, I'm almost required to go with the engineered solution, but this just might be the simplest fix to the problem.
    The most effective engineering solution is to make it as easy as possible to point out an ID-ten-T error.
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    Rockphed said it well.
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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    The most effective engineering solution is to make it as easy as possible to point out an ID-ten-T error.
    Every time an engineer makes a idiot proof device, humans make a better idiot.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    The "default" configuration is half the problem- if the dongles are disconnected, the USB-C and Lightning connectors won't work.

    Well, okay, the real problem is that customers are stupid, but I'm not allowed to fix that problem.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Well, okay, the real problem is that customers are stupid, but I'm not allowed to fix that problem.
    Solve that problem and you'll be wealthy enough to buy the company you work for and make it install reasonable technology.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    The "default" configuration is half the problem- if the dongles are disconnected, the USB-C and Lightning connectors won't work.

    Well, okay, the real problem is that customers are stupid, but I'm not allowed to fix that problem.
    "If your connection is one of these dongles (highlight dongles in image), connect the dongle to the end of the cable before connecting your device. Please disconnect the dongle when you are finished. Thank you!"
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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    "If your connection is one of these dongles (highlight dongles in image), connect the dongle to the end of the cable before connecting your device. Please disconnect the dongle when you are finished. Thank you!"
    That's like three steps too many for most people.

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    That's like three steps too many for most people.
    I know. I can't help but hope, though.
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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    That's like three steps too many for most people.
    The OP could have a big poster of the instructions made, and every time somebody tries to get out of following simple instructions by calling for an engineer, they can just pull out one of those telescoping pointer sticks and just tap the poster while scowling. And then beat the ignoramus with it if they try to feign illiteracy.

    I see no problems with this solution.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The OP could have a big poster of the instructions made, and every time somebody tries to get out of following simple instructions by calling for an engineer, they can just pull out one of those telescoping pointer sticks and just tap the poster while scowling. And then beat the ignoramus with it if they try to feign illiteracy.

    I see no problems with this solution.
    Somehow people with actual customer contact never do, while managers always do.


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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Why would they feign illiteracy, when they are illiterate?
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Electronic Concerns of Splicing USB Cables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Somehow people with actual customer contact never do, while managers always do.
    Clearly this is proof that management positions should not be allowed to make decisions. Let the people you pay to solve problems do the problem solving.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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