Zodi Plays: Tactics Ogre The Knight of Lodis (Crime Island Adventure)

[DataNinja]

That's not to say by the way that Gaston won't be encountering some manner of ancient super evil or something. I won't spoil if we actually do or not, but it's pretty clear by now that Something is on the island, something more than just territory to fight over anyway.

Why is it never some ancient supergood being of, like, rainbows and cotton candy that gets buried, or sealed, or whatever? If Good(tm) people can get their acts together in order to bring the downfall of their superpowerful foe, Evil(tm) should be able to do the same thing.

(This is more in general than addressing things that may-or-may-not occur in this game. Mostly because I have no idea where this is all going.)

[tyckspoon]

Why is it never some ancient supergood being of, like, rainbows and cotton candy that gets buried, or sealed, or whatever? If Good(tm) people can get their acts together in order to bring the downfall of their superpowerful foe, Evil(tm) should be able to do the same thing.

(This is more in general than addressing things that may-or-may-not occur in this game. Mostly because I have no idea where this is all going.)

That's not an uncommon counterpart to the Sealed Evil, actually - there's a number of stories where the heroes have to recover the pieces of and rebuild the Shattered Artifact of the Great Hero or learn the Seven Lost Ancient Spells of Binding or something in order to have sufficient power to re-seal or ultimately defeat the BBEG (see also the plot structure of basically every Zelda game, and there's a textbook example in Dragon Quest 8 with freeing the Godbird Empyrea.)

[Ninja_Prawn]

That's not an uncommon counterpart to the Sealed Evil, actually

Yeah, Sealed Good is definitely a thing. I guess you don't see it quite as often because it undercuts the agency of a protagonist if they need to call in some other hero to get the job done. Also because taking lazy shortcuts to power by unsealing some ancient secret is the sort of thing a villain would do. But I've definitely seen examples of the good version done well. Generally when the sealed hero is extremely charismatic and funny, so they become the 'leading' character even if they're not the designated protagonist.

[DataNinja]

That's not an uncommon counterpart to the Sealed Evil, actually - there's a number of stories where the heroes have to recover the pieces of and rebuild the Shattered Artifact of the Great Hero or learn the Seven Lost Ancient Spells of Binding or something in order to have sufficient power to re-seal or ultimately defeat the BBEG (see also the plot structure of basically every Zelda game, and there's a textbook example in Dragon Quest 8 with freeing the Godbird Empyrea.)

That's fair. I guess I didn't really think of Zelda, given that the Triforce or whatnot tends to be able to be used for Good or Evil. (Granted, there are the lesser Plot Coupons along the way. But, those don't feel to be in the same league as the World Shattering Bad Guy(tm).) But, it's also the case, I'm sure, that I just haven't experienced the correct media. Given that there's a whole trope page around it.

And, yeah, it is fair that if there's something where it's on the level as "all civilization will fall if the darkness is unleashed" it could be very anticlimactic to end up playing. Sometimes clichés are there for a reason, after all.

[HalfTangible]

Yeah, Sealed Good is definitely a thing. I guess you don't see it quite as often because it undercuts the agency of a protagonist if they need to call in some other hero to get the job done. Also because taking lazy shortcuts to power by unsealing some ancient secret is the sort of thing a villain would do. But I've definitely seen examples of the good version done well. Generally when the sealed hero is extremely charismatic and funny, so they become the 'leading' character even if they're not the designated protagonist.

Sealed Good is usually unsealed early on in the story so you can still have some conflict (and/or requires some great journey to awaken to prevent that whole lazy power-up angle.), whereas Sealed Evil is either released near the end, just threatened to be released, or is the inciting incident of the plot. How much power the Sealed Good or Sealed Evil has depends on the exact plotline you're going with.

[tyckspoon]

That's fair. I guess I didn't really think of Zelda, given that the Triforce or whatnot tends to be able to be used for Good or Evil. (Granted, there are the lesser Plot Coupons along the way. But, those don't feel to be in the same league as the World Shattering Bad Guy(tm).) But, it's also the case, I'm sure, that I just haven't experienced the correct media. Given that there's a whole trope page around it.

Wasn't thinking about the Triforce itself, although it sometimes plays that role, but the first half of a Zelda game is usually built around collecting what you need to unseal/recharge/activate/whatever the Master Sword or whatever is playing its role in that game. You know, the Sword of Evil's Bane without which you literally cannot even harm Gannon most of the time Zelda herself and/or the Light Arrows sometimes have that function too.

[DataNinja]

Wasn't thinking about the Triforce itself, although it sometimes plays that role, but the first half of a Zelda game is usually built around collecting what you need to unseal/recharge/activate/whatever the Master Sword or whatever is playing its role in that game. You know, the Sword of Evil's Bane without which you literally cannot even harm Gannon most of the time Zelda herself and/or the Light Arrows sometimes have that function too.

Yeah, that's fair. But the difference is that all of those still need a wielder/aid in the hero, whereas the typical All Bringing Evil can typically just singlehandedly bring the world to its knees or whatnot, if it's released. It's usually not just, like, a sword that is particularly potent at slaying good guys. But, again, I do understand how that would be fairly problematic for a narrative. And gameplay.
(Although, I do think it'd be funny if it turned out that the Artifact of Evil or whatever that was being unearthed at one point was just a sentimental heirloom. The real danger was the guy unearthing it all along.)

Anyways, this is probably going way too far off topic as is.

[LaZodiac]

Oh hey another Lodis, whodda thunkit.

Zodi Plays: Tactics Ogre The Knight of Lodis [7] S W A M P

Video Length: 30:59

In this episode, we make our way over to a swamp to continue our march towards...our destination, which is supposed to be a mountain according to Cybil. Gaston is confused, but he's nothing if not a follower. We're immediately ambushed by hawkmen! Hawkmen are interesting in that they're an extremely easy to get unit with perfect flight, but unlike fairies are actually decent! They're like violent, dwarfy elves and I kinda love that about them. I may at some point pick up an hawkman, just to have it. They specialize in hammers, but surprise-surprise, giving a unit capable of flight a bow is always a good idea. The fairies show this off, but like with most everything the hawkmen show it better. We also have to contend with some gryphens and some fairies, but overall this fight isn't all that problematic.

That said, it is a massive swamp in which we have very little actual ground to step on. Being submerged in water effectively cuts your stats in half, and while the enemies suffer this as well they can all fly so their movement isn't reduced at all. Luckily DataNinja is here to carry the slack, and also luckily we didn't waste any goth on an Octopus that would have excelled at this map in particular, thus tricking us into thinking it's a good unit. We also have Cybil on this map as a guest party member, wherein we learn she's a super powerful magic casting class known as a Sorceress. The Sorceress is a modified Siren, one of the strongest magic classes in the game. It's only real unique feature is that I think it gets access to one more utility spell than regular Siren's do, and is otherwise identical. That said, she does show off the general power of magic! Her spells do a ton of damage, and she's got a high enough int to make her AOE spells actually have a larger area of effect! It'll take awhile for our wizards to get that smart. And unlike most guest party members, Cybil REALLY contributes.

Once we slaughter that plot enforced random encounter, we actually have a moment to discuss with Cybil about what we're doing and who she is. As it turns out she's a secret police of the Pope of Lodisism, and she's here on a quest to discover a laser spear the mermaids who used to be the native inhabitants of Ovis island used in the totally justified and not at all garbage invasion of humans to the island. The laser spear eventually vanished, allowing humanity to gain the upper hand and reduce the mermaids to only a single area of the island. Thus, we're going to Urodela Cape to see about finding and politely asking a mermaid where they kept the laser spear. But before we can proceed, Shivan appears to warn us that soldiers are converging near Urodela Cape. We must go and slaughter them before they do anything that impedes our search for the laser spear!

I'm sure that'll work out wonderfully. Hope you all enjoyed, I'll see you all next time...for some fun!

------

Emblem time! Cybil has an emblem that hints towards how to get a Siren, so let's talk about it.

Philosopher's Stone: This requires you to kill two enemies or more in one cast. A simple thing, and you can even acquire it in training! But it also requires having enough int to gain AOF on your AOE spells. I can't actually find what thresholds are required, but whatever Cybil's int was in this is how much you need to get the full classic cross shape for magic. We will, at a later date, hire another lady soldier to become a Siren. Deneb has...other plans, as you'll see eventually.

[LansXero]

Do ninjas not get their double attack thingie here? I keep getting KoL and the PSP remake mixed up, If so, then it might be a better idea to use him with a bow instead.

[tonberrian]

Int threshold for AoE is 70, IIRC. Either that or 90, but I'm pretty sure it's 70.

[Ninja_Prawn]

turns out she's a secret police of the Pope of Lodisism, and she's here on a quest to discover a laser spear the mermaids who used to be the native inhabitants of Ovis island used in the totally justified and not at all garbage invasion of humans to the island.

When I first read this (before watching the video), I assumed it was a humourous paraphrasing... I was wrong.

Is Celesine's long-range kill worth a style point?

[DataNinja]

Man, those Hawkmen sprites suuuuper remind me of FFXII: Revenant Wings' aegyl warriors.

Spoiler: The aforementioned sprite.

Show

Also, yeah, that's a lot of water.

You aren't the only one who thought our guest was about to shoot Ivanna.

One of these days you should really swap the Longsword and Tower Shield. Before your muscle memory finally gets mostly used to it.

Thankfully, she also has enough intelligence to not AoE your own troops, too.

I imagine you'd want to summon rain if, say, a lot of opponents were in swamps. Because apparently, according to the tooltip text, it can make people stuck in storms. And I'm sure there are other terrain effects, too. Like flooding in order to quench fire spells, or whatever.

And it turns out the Ninja wasn't really useful at all after all.

Spoiler: Army

Show

Unit	Kills
Gaston	7
Deneb	6
DataNinja	4
Blue	1
Celestine	4
Trobby	2
Vecna	4
Ivanna	0
Glycinia	0
Friendly Fire: 4	Whoops, An Object Got In The Way: 7

[tonberrian]

Unfortunately, you can't set the land on fire.

Well, you can, but all it does is convert one tile type to another - grass and snow tiles get converted to dirt tiles, and that's it. Which is useful because dirt tiles are pretty good for water, air, and earth aspected people.

Storms mostly just raise up the water level, and Sunlight can occasionally lower it. And being stuck in water without Swim sucks. I mean it sucks for swimmers, too, but everyone else sucks so much worse.

[LaZodiac]

Do ninjas not get their double attack thingie here? I keep getting KoL and the PSP remake mixed up, If so, then it might be a better idea to use him with a bow instead.

The only unique things Ninjas get in this is the ability to throw shuriken.

When I first read this (before watching the video), I assumed it was a humourous paraphrasing... I was wrong.

Is Celesine's long-range kill worth a style point?

The Lodis Inquisition needs a laser spear badly.

It's only one tile longer than the regular range so I say no.

Man, those Hawkmen sprites suuuuper remind me of FFXII: Revenant Wings' aegyl warriors.

Spoiler: The aforementioned sprite.

Show

Also, yeah, that's a lot of water.

You aren't the only one who thought our guest was about to shoot Ivanna.

One of these days you should really swap the Longsword and Tower Shield. Before your muscle memory finally gets mostly used to it.

Thankfully, she also has enough intelligence to not AoE your own troops, too.

I imagine you'd want to summon rain if, say, a lot of opponents were in swamps. Because apparently, according to the tooltip text, it can make people stuck in storms. And I'm sure there are other terrain effects, too. Like flooding in order to quench fire spells, or whatever.

And it turns out the Ninja wasn't really useful at all after all.

Spoiler: Army

Show

Unit	Kills
Gaston	7
Deneb	6
DataNinja	4
Blue	1
Celestine	4
Trobby	2
Vecna	4
Ivanna	0
Glycinia	0
Friendly Fire: 4	Whoops, An Object Got In The Way: 7

I knew I recognized the Hawkman sprite! Revenant Wings also really FEELS like an Ogre Battle game, though simplified, now that I think about it. Whoa, I'm blowing my mind here.

That is a point. I think if the water level rises to high you might die? I don't know.

[DataNinja]

I knew I recognized the Hawkman sprite! Revenant Wings also really FEELS like an Ogre Battle game, though simplified, now that I think about it. Whoa, I'm blowing my mind here.

But also Realtime, and you can summon more forces into battle...

I did enjoy it, though. (It's also the only FF game that I've played, truth be told.) So, that bodes well for liking how this playthrough will turn out. (Not that it hasn't been enjoyable so far.)

[tonberrian]

That is a point. I think if the water level rises to high you might die? I don't know.

Nope! Everyone can tread water and sword at the same time. Not well, mind, but they can do it. Tide rolls in and everyone already in the water just get moved to the higher tile of water.

[jindra34]

But also Realtime, and you can summon more forces into battle...

Those are both true, to an extent, of actual Ogre Battle games.

[LaZodiac]

Those are both true, to an extent, of actual Ogre Battle games.

Yeah that was basically what I was saying. Thinking on it...though it's not 100% accurate since it's more of a typical RTS than standard Ogre Battle, Revenant Wings is like...REALLY similar thinking about it and I can't get that thought out of my head now.

I need to tell my friend who wants more Ogre Battle to try it out.

[DataNinja]

Those are both true, to an extent, of actual Ogre Battle games.

Ah, alright. I was not aware that this was not indicative of actual Ogre Battle games. I assumed that this was standard for the series. Oops.

[LaZodiac]

Ah, alright. I was not aware that this was not indicative of actual Ogre Battle games. I assumed that this was standard for the series. Oops.

Aah. Yeah no, this is entirely dissimilar to classic Ogre Battle games. Ogre Battle is like...a quasi RTS where you control parties of JRPG units that get into one round JRPG battles with other units. It's super weird and fascinating.

[DataNinja]

Aah. Yeah no, this is entirely dissimilar to classic Ogre Battle games. Ogre Battle is like...a quasi RTS where you control parties of JRPG units that get into one round JRPG battles with other units. It's super weird and fascinating.

Well, that does definitely sound super-weird, yes.

[LaZodiac]

It's time for a big one...

Zodi Plays: Tactics Ogre The Knight of Lodis [8] The Mermaid Question

Video Length: 41:01

Starting us off today, we change Blue into a Cleric as he was always meant to be, and then we march off to Urodela to deal with those enemy troops just kinda lingering around here. Immediately we are ambushed by ninjas seeking revenge for Lodis slaughtering his entire family. I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu here. This horde of ninjas also has a Witch, which is what I'm intending to turn Deneb into later. We'll talk about that more later. We also have in this stage someone with the Necklace of Resistance. It's uh...not very clear about it, but this accessory makes you IMMUNE to magic! I believe this means it also makes you immune to healing as well, but I'll need to test that later. Finally, the leader ninja has a matsukaze, a powerful two handed sword with wind element.

This is a pretty interesting encounter, mostly in that ninjas are as you'd expect fast and fairly deadly, but also decently fragile. Cybil's supportive nuking with magic is pretty useful, as are our own wizards. Since we've turned Blue into a Cleric we're down a melee fighter as well, so things can get a little hectic. But we're able to handle things fairly easily, since I'm not actually THAT bad at tactics...mostly.

With all the ninjas dead at our feet, we discover the actual soldiers who were hanging out in the city! It's Rictor and Orson and Others, our old buddies! We have a...discussion about just what exactly Gaston is doing. Gaston questions why Rictor is really here, likely suspecting it may have to do with the spear. Rictor seems to not know at all. But he does recognize Cybil for what she is, and is super pissed that she's hear. The pope using secret police wizard spies to manipulate the world from the shadows is not something God would approve of! Which...I mean is true. But then Rick goes off on Cybil for being a poor as well. Damnit Rictor, I like you, don't be like that. We also learn through this conversation what, exactly, Gaston is intending with his actions. He wants to see what he can do without the support of the noble family that took him in, or the backing of Rictor and Felis. He wants to go his own way. Rictor calls his bluff on this since he is basically just following along with the random pope spy who saved us. Rictor stomps off, deciding that we'll be enemies from now on...

Later that night it begins to storm, and Cybil has taken us to a shake to work out what we need to do next about this mermaid thing. But first she gives us a rather large and interesting speech about choice. Not choosing is a choice, and riding the currants of your life isn't UN valid, but it is a weak way to exist. Cybil then shows her manner of thinking is...a bit flawed, because when we ask her how she became a pope spy she mentions she was brought in by the age of six and basically raised to be what she is. She frames this as her choice, and while it is true that she COULD have chosen to not be a pope spy when they asked her...she was raised in that environment. They made it so her choice really wasn't a choice at all. She doesn't seem to get that...I mean, she gets to to some degree, but she doesn't realize it on a conscious level.

Our conversation is interrupted by the sailor we hired to take us to mermaid town showing up. As it turns out this storm is too hard to sail in and also hey, we have rules about messing with mermaids. They're powerful demi-humans with long spears and strong magic. Don't mess with mermaids, especially since they live near the water where they excel and you drown. So don't mess with mermaids. We may think with our money and logic that we can easily deal with these mermaids...but rules exist for a reason. Cybil is of course less than pleased with this, so the sailor gives us an idea. Why don't we just torture a mermaid? Her allies will be drawn in by her singing for help, then we can follow them back to mermaid town! This plan is flawless! Cybil immediately takes it as canon and what we need to do, and Gaston is...a little squiggly about it.

And it is here that we receive a choice. It's a bit more nuanced than it really appears and than I really present it, but...it is, effectively, a choice between two options. Are you pro or con on the torture of mermaids? This'll be decided by all of you in a vote that lasts until Wednesday so I have time to record and edit. I won't be discussing the actual like, nuance behind the vote because I don't want to bias the vote one way or another, until you've all voted and we're firmly locked into our path. But yeah, this is the Big Choice. The answer we give here will determine the outcome of the entire game, and one of these are canon! None of you will learn what is canon until the end of the game though, just for my own personal amusement.

But yeah. Hope you all enjoyed! See you all next time...and Don't Forget To Vote.

Remember. Not choosing is it's own choice.

[jindra34]

The reason that most enemies don't pallete swap is that the designers used it to mark enemies with a little something special. Normally ninjas CAN'T equip Bane magic like nightmare.
And yes Fascination has the worst accuracy of pretty much everything in the game.
Archery in this game is VERY, VERY easy to bad at.
Also remember immunity to magic means immunity to heal spells.

Yeah this kinda gets into class/king vs. pope conflict. Also Richtor made a very clean deflection here. Cybil may not be trustworthy, but she is a good teacher. And see here is something interesting about Lodis, almost all branches of it are willing to accept people of pretty much any nationality. And yes, the only DECISIVE OPTION in the game, and it barely looks like a choice. There is a reason they preface this with Cybil's speech.

[LaZodiac]

The reason that most enemies don't pallete swap is that the designers used it to mark enemies with a little something special. Normally ninjas CAN'T equip Bane magic like nightmare.
And yes Fascination has the worst accuracy of pretty much everything in the game.
Archery in this game is VERY, VERY easy to bad at.
Also remember immunity to magic means immunity to heal spells.

Yeah this kinda gets into class/king vs. pope conflict. Also Richtor made a very clean deflection here. Cybil may not be trustworthy, but she is a good teacher. And see here is something interesting about Lodis, almost all branches of it are willing to accept people of pretty much any nationality. And yes, the only DECISIVE OPTION in the game, and it barely looks like a choice. There is a reason they preface this with Cybil's speech.

...yes they can? I'm pretty sure Ninjas can equip Nightmare explicitly.

I said as much regarding healing in the thread

We'll talk about how I feel about prefacing the choice with Cybil's speech next time.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Nooo! My staff!! How will I teach young whippersnappers a lesson now?

[DataNinja]

If you hear ninja footsteps, it's not a good ninja.

Man, all this good ninja equipment. I want some.

...apparently to charm you hold up a pink triforce.

I imagine the palatte swaps are mostly to mark "yo, this is the boss, so you can do whatever accordingly".

That is... indeed plot. I can definitely see what they're going for. Though, yes, it maybe does ring a bit hollow to speak about choices when you've not really had any up to that point in the game, plotwise.

Spoiler: Army

Show

Unit	Kills
Gaston	8
Deneb	7
DataNinja	4
Blue	1
Celestine	5
Trobby	2
Vecna	7
Ivanna	1
Glycinia	0
Friendly Fire: 4	Whoops, An Object Got In The Way: 8

[LaZodiac]

Nooo! My staff!! How will I teach young whippersnappers a lesson now?

We'll get you another stick.

[DataNinja]

Oh, also, while I remember... if a Witch persuades one of your members, do you just... lose them after the battle? Does it basically become a one-hit-kill move, for the purposes of keeping them in your party? Or can you get them back if you don't kill them?

[LaZodiac]

Oh, also, while I remember... if a Witch persuades one of your members, do you just... lose them after the battle? Does it basically become a one-hit-kill move, for the purposes of keeping them in your party? Or can you get them back if you don't kill them?

Their use of the word persuade for Fascinate is a really, really dumb thing to do for this exact reason.

Persuade is something only the player can do. Fascinate is a Charm ability that briefly makes them on the side that Charm's them. So it's a status effect, not a stealing of your unit.

[DataNinja]

Their use of the word persuade for Fascinate is a really, really dumb thing to do for this exact reason.

Persuade is something only the player can do. Fascinate is a Charm ability that briefly makes them on the side that Charm's them. So it's a status effect, not a stealing of your unit.

Ah, gotcha. So it's a temporary thing where their allegiances are switched. That is... much less infuriating, yes. I was really concerned that it'd be a mechanic where you'd have to persuade them back if you wanted to keep the units you invested much into.