The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I would hardly call fortifying intelligence an "exploit", it's a perfectly standard effect that's designed to be used in exactly this way. Once your enchantment skill reaches 50-60 or thereabouts, you can reasonably hope to create any level of enchantment you like in a few attempts. You need a surplus of soul gems, but by that time even grand souls are easy enough to find.
    One, I did not say that fortifying intelligence is an exploit, I said that you needed a high enchant skill to create decent enchanted items unless you were abusing fortify intelligence effects. Drinking a Fortify Intelligence potion and casting a Fortify Intelligence spell is one thing; drinking 10 Fortify Intelligence potions, creating 10 more, drinking all of them, and then creating your item is something else.

    Two, even with 100 Intelligence and 100 Luck, an Enchant skill of 50 or 60 only gives you something like a 50-50 chance of successfully creating an enchantment that costs around 15 enchantment points, which would be something like Fire Damage 1-15 points for 5 seconds on Target. An enchantment costing 25 points, such as Constant Effect Restore Health 1 point or Constant Effect Shield 2-3 points, would only be successfully created on about 1 in 4 attempts, and 35+ point enchantments such as Constant Effect Restore Health 1 point Restore Fatigue 1 point are completely out of reach.

    Three, while Grand Souls may be easy to acquire by the time you have 50 or 60 Enchant skill, Grand Soul Gems are not; as good as Azura's Star is, it can only hold a single soul at a time, and the only vendor with a restocking supply of Grand Soul Gems in the unmodded game is in Mournhold. It is not worth expending a Grand Soul Gem on an enchantment that you don't have better than even odds to create successfully, and unless you're abusing Fortify Intelligence effects you're not going to have better-than-even odds of creating an enchantment that's actually worth using a Grand Soul and Grand Soul Gem for when your Enchant skill is only 50 or 60.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2019-03-04 at 04:10 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I would hardly call fortifying intelligence an "exploit", it's a perfectly standard effect that's designed to be used in exactly this way. Once your enchantment skill reaches 50-60 or thereabouts, you can reasonably hope to create any level of enchantment you like in a few attempts. You need a surplus of soul gems, but by that time even grand souls are easy enough to find.
    If you do it only once, sure. In Morrowind, though, the quality of your potions is predicated by your Intelligence, and Fortify Intelligence is a potion you can easily make. As such, if you make one fortify intelligence potion and chug it down, you can then make another potion with increased effects. Chug that, make another one, chug that, make another one, and so on, until you're making potions that fortify your intelligence by the thousands.

    Once you've fortified your intelligence to that point, you can make potions that, for instance, will restore all fatigue, health, and magicka instantly, and which last for five hours of real time per dose. Or, perhaps what you want is a Levitate potion that allows you to move so fast you clip through the world, or a fortify strength potion so strong that you could punch the Ministry of Truth back into space, or a Shield/Fortify Luck/Fortify Agility potion that will make you immune to attacks.

    It gets ridiculous, and it gets there quickly.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Balmas View Post
    It gets ridiculous, and it gets there quickly.
    I'm pretty sure they fixed that exploit in a patch--a rare example of Bethesda actually fixing something, I realise that's so unusual you might have missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I'm pretty sure they fixed that exploit in a patch--a rare example of Bethesda actually fixing something, I realise that's so unusual you might have missed it.
    Was it patched or "patched"?

    For example, a patch "fixed" the duping glitch in Oblivion, and by extension the Constant Effect glitch.

    Turns out they just patched out one method, and a very slightly more difficult one still worked.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I'm pretty sure they fixed that exploit in a patch--a rare example of Bethesda actually fixing something, I realise that's so unusual you might have missed it.
    Unless I'm missing an official patch on my Morrowind install (v1.6.1820 with Tribunal and Bloodmoon, which seems to be the most recent version available on Bethesda's website), they didn't fix it for Morrowind or its expansions. I just checked, and with my character's Alchemy skill set to 100 so I don't need to worry about skill increases messing things up, creating a Fortify Intelligence potion, drinking it, and creating another Fortify Intelligence potion got me a more powerful potion (at least one of increased magnitude and increased duration), and drinking the new Fortify Intelligence potion a) gives you the more powerful Fortify Intelligence effect b) without overwriting the first potion's Fortify Intelligence effect and c) allows you to make a yet-more-potent potion, which you can then use to repeat the process. Additionally, giving myself 10 Exclusive Fortify Intelligence Potions (Fortify Intelligence 20 points for 60 seconds) and drinking all of them at once gave me 10 instances of Fortify Intelligence 20 points for a total of +200 Intelligence, so completely-identical generic potions also stack rather than overwriting one another.

    You might be thinking of Oblivion's restriction on the number of potions you could benefit from at once when their effects had durations, or of the change to the base potion strength computation between Morrowind and Oblivion that more or less disassociated your character's attribute scores from the strength of the potions that could be created.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    According to the UESP wiki, the stacking effect is patched by some of the code fixes, and OpenMW.
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    I just make one spell that's 'fortify intellegence many hundreds of points' (whatever I can get away with) for three seconds, as you pause the game in your inventory. Cast the spell, fire off the enchantment, open your mind.



    All they needed was a cap and a better way for you to gain attributes.

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    About exploits, I couldn't get why Skyrim had only one ring slot, and why they had removed spellmaking. Then I realised how broken Skyrim enchanting is. Once you hit level 100, you can enchant a ring, an amulet, a helm and a cuirass to each give you a 25% discount on magicka consumption when casting spells from a school (or two, if you took the final perk). This means that you can cast any e.g. Destruction spell for free. With spellmaking, you could create a spell inflicting any damage and not have to pay for it. Because of this, you need a mod if you want a candlelight spell that lasts a bit longer.

    This also means that a mod adding something as simple as a cloak is a big deal in balance, because it adds an enchantable slot.

    But you don't need any mod, to add a slot. If you wear the most powerful helms (dragon masks; a less awesome alternative are circlets), you can also wear an enchantable Falmer helmet or the awesome jagged crown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    About exploits, I couldn't get why Skyrim had only one ring slot, and why they had removed spellmaking. Then I realised how broken Skyrim enchanting is.
    Yep, it is. It's actually very easy to rebalance, and there are a lot of mods that do it. Either by redefining the enchantment effect to make spells stronger rather than cheaper, or by putting a hard cap on the maximum cost reduction you can get from enchantments.
    Last edited by veti; 2019-03-09 at 08:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    But you don't need any mod, to add a slot. If you wear the most powerful helms (dragon masks; a less awesome alternative are circlets), you can also wear an enchantable Falmer helmet or the awesome jagged crown.
    Dragon masks are strange, you have to take the enchantments that come with them, sometimes there are three, but they're usually ones I don't like. Circlets though, that sounds great, I didn't know you could use them and Falmer helmets at the same time, that's probably bumped up everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Yep, it is. It's actually very easy to rebalance, and there are a lot of mods that do it. Either by redefining the enchantment effect to make spells stronger rather than cheaper, or by putting a hard cap on the maximum cost reduction you can get from enchantments.
    To be honest I think the reduce mana cost enchantment is less unbalanced than increased damage enchantments are. The main reason being mana really doesn't matter after a certain point with how easy it is to get potions so increasing damage is a direct power gain while decreasing mana costs is basically just a quality of life thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    To be honest I think the reduce mana cost enchantment is less unbalanced than increased damage enchantments are. The main reason being mana really doesn't matter after a certain point with how easy it is to get potions so increasing damage is a direct power gain while decreasing mana costs is basically just a quality of life thing.
    Except with how low power spells are by default, the increased damage is necessary.

    The wonky stuff begins when you stack both, and have spells powerful enough to match or exceed a sword wielder and can cast them all for 0 magicka.

    Of the two, getting rid of the latter is better for the game's health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Except with how low power spells are by default, the increased damage is necessary.

    The wonky stuff begins when you stack both, and have spells powerful enough to match or exceed a sword wielder and can cast them all for 0 magicka.

    Of the two, getting rid of the latter is better for the game's health.
    The base spell damage isn't really out of line with base melee damage over a long enough period of time. Mostly because base spell damage is actually kind of high, but it's base mana usage that's the limiting factor at low levels and keeps it in line with melee output.

    The issue though really is enemy hp just scales way too much for casters, and yet at the same time it isn't enough to compensate for the multiple the large stacking bonuses melee gets from enchanting, smithing, their weapon skill, and alchemy if a person really wants to go overboard.
    Last edited by Inarius; 2019-03-11 at 12:57 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Except with how low power spells are by default, the increased damage is necessary.

    The wonky stuff begins when you stack both, and have spells powerful enough to match or exceed a sword wielder and can cast them all for 0 magicka.

    Of the two, getting rid of the latter is better for the game's health.
    Why not apply both, but to a lesser value? Not that it prevents stacking, but reduces the issue of many late game RPG's which have 1 shot nukes unviable because of how expensive they are, so stacking damage for lower damage spells improve them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Why not apply both, but to a lesser value? Not that it prevents stacking, but reduces the issue of many late game RPG's which have 1 shot nukes unviable because of how expensive they are, so stacking damage for lower damage spells improve them.
    Frankly, I would prefer that increased spell damage was baked into the school itself. Let enchantment bring QoL and sustainability, with actual skill in the school bring power. Its always struck me as rather silly that a master blacksmith and enchanter with no martial or actual magical ability can out fight a master swordsman or wizard just through the quality of their gear.
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    I think it's more fair to realize that large group crowd control is where wizards shine. A fighter has to chop through each enemy, but a wizard can simply Huck fireballs and hurt groups. Or spam ice storm down a narrow path. Yes you probably lose 1v1, but against a group? The wizard will win quicker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    I think it's more fair to realize that large group crowd control is where wizards shine. A fighter has to chop through each enemy, but a wizard can simply Huck fireballs and hurt groups. Or spam ice storm down a narrow path. Yes you probably lose 1v1, but against a group? The wizard will win quicker.
    The issue is, groups in ES usually consist of scrubs that could whale on you all day and not muss your hair, with one or two actual threats. Taking them out faster is a convenience, not a meaningful distinction.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I miss cast on use, a form of enchantment that basically makes an item you wear a re-usable spell scroll

    It was totally broken because there was no casting time and you ended up fireballing like a machinegun, and you could only make constant effect items with grand souls which increased spell management hassles far too much but it was a good concept.

    Also Dual swords were the best in skyrim 'cause you could enchant the two and, as they were no different in enchantment than slower swords, you would rack up your dps to insane degrees. Magic was a bad joke.

    How 2 enchant without being bad
    1 Fortify attributes, never fortify skills. Fortify skills should be the realm of artifacts alone (or from things like sigil stones)
    2 Cap attributes.
    3 put in a diminishing returns feature for stacking certain constant effect enchantments.
    4 deal with stuff by points rather than percentages.
    5- do constant effect AND cast on use, but do an animation for CoU.
    6- don't limit potential enchantments by what slot it's in.
    Last edited by The Jack; 2019-03-11 at 10:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    But you don't need any mod, to add a slot. If you wear the most powerful helms (dragon masks; a less awesome alternative are circlets), you can also wear an enchantable Falmer helmet
    Does a bit, but not that much, use of the extra enhanced alchemy enchanted falmer helmet ups the enhance enchantment potion from 32 to 37. The 32 enhanced enchantment potion takes you to a falmer helmet enchanted to enhanced alchemy 29, the 37 enhanced enchantment potion takes your falmer helmet to enhanced alchemy 29, i.e. no improvement whatever. The extra on the enhanced smithing isn't nothing, but it's not that much, and it (obviously, reasonably) doesn't make a difference to the alchemy or enchanting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Does a bit, but not that much, use of the extra enhanced alchemy enchanted falmer helmet ups the enhance enchantment potion from 32 to 37. The 32 enhanced enchantment potion takes you to a falmer helmet enchanted to enhanced alchemy 29, the 37 enhanced enchantment potion takes your falmer helmet to enhanced alchemy 29, i.e. no improvement whatever. The extra on the enhanced smithing isn't nothing, but it's not that much, and it (obviously, reasonably) doesn't make a difference to the alchemy or enchanting.
    Just doing the enchantment loop itself won't really break things too horribly. I've noticed enchants seem to cap put at around 29ish% no matter how much back and forth I do. Its when you add in the restoration potion loop to it that things really get out of hand.

    The resto loop is basically, craft a resto potion with your alchemy gear on, remove gear, drink potion, put gear back on craft resto potion and repeat until you cap out then make fortify enchant potions and craft a better set of alchemy gear and repeat the process all over. Fortify resto potions also effect any enchanted smithing gear you have so you can sharpen weapons to get thousands of damage per hit heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    The resto loop is basically, craft a resto potion with your alchemy gear on, remove gear, drink potion, put gear back on craft resto potion and repeat until you cap out then make fortify enchant potions and craft a better set of alchemy gear and repeat the process all over.
    Which is broken, but it has this much to be said for it: it's not the kind of thing you'd stumble across just by playing like a reasonable person. I've never met anyone who knew about that trick without hearing it from someone else.

    Smithing, on the other hand, is broken just by levelling up the skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Which is broken, but it has this much to be said for it: it's not the kind of thing you'd stumble across just by playing like a reasonable person. I've never met anyone who knew about that trick without hearing it from someone else.

    Smithing, on the other hand, is broken just by levelling up the skill.
    I actually stumbled across it. Though I didn't immediately recognize the significance until someone told me.

    I was wearing that fortify alchemy ring you get from the Dark Brotherhood questline. Drank a fortify restoration potion, and noticed it got stronger. Because you don't actually need to take the gear off every time.

    It was just a 'oh. Huh. That's neat. let's get back to killing things.'
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    While I most of us probably have this I figured I'd mention that Morrowind is currently free until the end of the month. The catch of course is you gotta nab it via the Bethesda launcher. It might be handy just to pick up just on the off chance Skywind actually gets completed before TES6

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    Looks like Blades is in beta (finally).

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    So, in the past few weeks, my life has been consumed with Kingdom Come: Deliverance. "So, why are you posting in the Elder Scrolls thread," you may ask? Well, I think that there are some lessons that the next Elder Scrolls could learn from how Kingdom Come handles navigation.

    Quest markers are a bit of a contentious subject in the Elder Scrolls community. On the one hand, they're incredibly convenient for game developers, as putting a quest marker on the map is much simpler than writing and voicing directions for every quest in the game. From a purely functional view, they're brilliant. From a roleplaying perspective, though, quest markers are intrusive and a bit lazy; "Follow the floating arrow" is much less satisfying and immersive than "Follow the road north from Talmberg, make a left at the abandoned house, and then continue straight through the crossroads."

    In Kingdom Come's normal mode, the player is equipped with everything you'd expect in a modern quest log: you get a journal of what happened in the quest, a map with a player marker, a compass, and objective markers for your currently tracked quests. However, in Hardcore Mode, KCD does something interesting: instead of removing map markers entirely and forcing the player to rely on journal entries, KCD removes the player marker. When you open your quest log and map, you can see exactly where that bandit camp is located, but it's up to you to figure out which way to go to get there. And since hardcore mode also removes the compass, you find yourself much more aware of your environment.

    It's a fascinating compromise, and one that leads to much greater immersion. I can't tell you how excited I was to discover that I could use the relative position of the sun in the sky to determine east from west when I was lost in a forest. When I was lost in the forest in the middle of the night and fleeing for my life from a pack of bandits, I couldn't just open my map and know exactly which way to go, but instead had to wait until I found a road, a clearing, somewhere I could take my bearings. I was ecstatic to look up at night and realize, "Holy crap, the stars are accurate! I can find Polaris and use that to get around!" The end result is that after a hundred and fifty hours of playing KCD, I feel like I know the roads of Bohemia better than I do the roads of Skyrim, because I had to learn how to get from point to point without getting turned around.

    I can hope that Bethesda might take some pointers from KCD for Elder Scrolls VI. I mean, realistically, they're going to continue to play to the lowest common denominator, rather than opting to include features from an optional mode from a Kickstarted game. But hey, that's what mods are for, right?
    Last edited by Balmas; 2019-04-29 at 03:10 PM.
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    Personally, i'd like to see some of the complexity added back into the game. If im a wizard, let me charm people into liking me, or even mind control them to make them outright my minion if im good enough at magic. If im a martial, give me more equipment options than just light and heavy armor and one and two handed weapons. Let me wear a breastplate over leather, make it harder to be stealthy in glass armor, interesting things like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balmas View Post
    Quest markers are a bit of a contentious subject in the Elder Scrolls community. On the one hand, they're incredibly convenient for game developers, as putting a quest marker on the map is much simpler than writing and voicing directions for every quest in the game. From a purely functional view, they're brilliant. From a roleplaying perspective, though, quest markers are intrusive and a bit lazy; "Follow the floating arrow" is much less satisfying and immersive than "Follow the road north from Talmberg, make a left at the abandoned house, and then continue straight through the crossroads."

    (snip)

    I can hope that Bethesda might take some pointers from KCD for Elder Scrolls VI. I mean, realistically, they're going to continue to play to the lowest common denominator, rather than opting to include features from an optional mode from a Kickstarted game. But hey, that's what mods are for, right?
    This only works if the journal is worth a Septum. One reason I cannot play Morrowind is that the journal is horrible. "Go out of town and look for this thing." Yeah, not helpful. Or worse, "look for the thing east of town" (the thing is to the west). Given that the people making ES VI are the same ones who made Morrowind, I hope they don't go back to a journal-based system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Personally, i'd like to see some of the complexity added back into the game. If im a wizard, let me charm people into liking me, or even mind control them to make them outright my minion if im good enough at magic. If im a martial, give me more equipment options than just light and heavy armor and one and two handed weapons. Let me wear a breastplate over leather, make it harder to be stealthy in glass armor, interesting things like that.
    Re: charm spells, me too, but I think that gets somewhat tricky. Effectively what you're asking for is content which would only be available to characters which acquire certain skills or abilities. It's definitely doable in a non-voiced/animated affair, since you're effectively just writing some extra dialogue, but in the modern triple-A landscape, that's a very hard sell. You're effectively asking for a significant chunk of your game budget to be dropped into Easter eggs.

    The armor thing could probably be modded into Skyrim right now, if someone were to do enough work. It's just adding more models, and more slots on which to wear those models. Of course, if each new piece becomes another substrate on which to stick an enchant, you could break the game pretty quickly, not that that's very hard with an Elder Scrolls game to begin with.

    One of the things I really like about Skyrim's approach to itemization is how it's possible to make a viable armor set out of anything, so you can get the look you want. Taken to its logical conclusion, maybe the right thing is to completely divorce your armor's appearance and it's effect on your statistics. I've always been someone lukewarm on the D&D legacy of the 100% magical wardrobe. If you go back to the literary antecedents of fantasy, magic items are rare and special, and having every single piece of gear convey some kind of mystical benefit definitely gives the game's magic much more of a commodity feel.

  29. - Top - End - #449
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    "Go out of town and look for this thing." Yeah, not helpful. Or worse, "look for the thing east of town" (the thing is to the west).
    I think someone at Bethesda is really bad at maps. There was something like that with Weatherly or was it Hackdirt in Oblivion, find fort <name> and go southeast, when the actual direction was southwest, or even northwest? I don't remember, except that it was wrong. Then there's the map pointer in Whiterun points in 180 degrees the wrong direction, it's fine everywhere else, it's only in the middle of Whiterun it's wrong, I suppose it doesn't matter, but it does irritate my perfectionism.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  30. - Top - End - #450
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2014

    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Re: armor, I hope at the very least they take a page out of ESO's book and make clothing 'light' armor, because as it is I never wear plain clothes even on my casters - it doesn't raise any of my skills.

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