The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You can have permanent Atronachs as well as undead, even in the base game?
    Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?
    Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! ).

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Magic in skyrim is painful. Best spell is conjure dremora (lord?), because that summons the fighter you arent.

    I really liked shooting those slow moving blizzard balls at people. It was the best destruction delivery device for the most resisted damage type. Killed a lot of compabions with it, but spent most of the game running away for the mana of this and dremora.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! ).
    I'm pretty sure Sporeegg's point is that he wants a permanent dominate effect spell so he can pick some NPC and force him/her/it to be his permanent meatshield (hence why he specified non-undead). However, even if there was a mster-level spell for that the sad fact is the master-level illusion spells are just terrible (outside of power-leveling in cities). At even mid-tier levels you need to dual-cast the spells to get the effective level boost or they become useless, and the master spells cannot be dual-cast. Harmony, for example, with all perks will never hit anything above level 43. Pacify, with just the dual-cast perk can hit 44 and dual-cast with perks can hit up to 83.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Magic in skyrim is painful. Best spell is conjure dremora (lord?), because that summons the fighter you arent.

    I really liked shooting those slow moving blizzard balls at people. It was the best destruction delivery device for the most resisted damage type. Killed a lot of compabions with it, but spent most of the game running away for the mana of this and dremora.
    Destruction spamming is a lot easier with cost reduction. The last mage I played used enchantment to get 96% cost reduction. The expert level spells cost 3 magicka to cast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Destruction spamming is a lot easier with cost reduction. The last mage I played used enchantment to get 96% cost reduction. The expert level spells cost 3 magicka to cast.
    The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.
    It's not really an "exploit" if I was just doing what the game intended. I didn't even do the alchemy/enchantment back and forth stacking. I just stuck 32% on three pieces of equipment. Besides, without massive cost reduction, the expert spells are unusably bad.

    Now, a real exploit is the soul trap/fortify attribute trick in Morrowind that let me boost all my stats into the thousands. (Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    It's not really an "exploit" if I was just doing what the game intended. I didn't even do the alchemy/enchantment back and forth stacking. I just stuck 32% on three pieces of equipment. Besides, without massive cost reduction, the expert spells are unusably bad.

    Now, a real exploit is the soul trap/fortify attribute trick in Morrowind that let me boost all my stats into the thousands. (Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)
    Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.
    Ah, I never had that problem. I don't think I boosted my stats high enough for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.
    And this would be a problem because...?
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    And this would be a problem because...?
    Because then you have to repair your weapon and repairing your weapon after every single hit would be tedious.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    So instead you punch people. Much better.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2019-01-09 at 01:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    And this would be a problem because...?
    It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

    Edit: Mind, for those who aren't in the know, this is normally impossible as both Dagoth Ur and the Heart of Lorkhan have 1,000 health each and regenerate dozens, if not hundreds, of health points per frame.
    Last edited by Talion; 2019-01-09 at 01:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    So instead you punch people. Much better.
    But punching people is governed by your speed stat in Morrowind, and since you don't want speed to be too high because the game gets unplayable (or even crashes), your punches don't hit quite hard enough!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    But punching people is governed by your speed stat in Morrowind, and since you don't want speed to be too high because the game gets unplayable (or even crashes), your punches don't hit quite hard enough!
    While speed is the governing attribute for the skill, it isn't taken into account when calculating damage. In fact, no attribute is - only the skill level and target's armor matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    So instead you punch people. Much better.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talion View Post
    It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.
    Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

    Seems unsatisfying somehow.

    But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

    I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    This.



    Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

    Seems unsatisfying somehow.

    But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

    I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?
    Nah, that's about it. Morrowind is old, so they only had so much ability to program in a dramatic death for Dagoth Ur. I think you jumped the gun a little by stabbing him, you aren't really meant to be watching him when they despawn him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think you jumped the gun a little by stabbing him
    I dunno. It's kind of hard to ignore that basic instinct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia
    (Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)
    Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.
    I wouldn't describe stacking enchantments as an exploit. It's just the game as designed. Let's not pretend that there's no opportunity cost or resource investment in stacking fortify school enchantments on your equipment. Also, it's not like wanging on enemies with a blade or a bow costs any consumable resource.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?
    I wasn't aware there was any illusion spell in the base game which converts a NPC into a permanent ally, in the way that Dead Thrall does. All you get are calm, fury, fear, and courage. But honestly, is there anything in the game you can't tackle with that kit, plus a retainer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailurus View Post
    I'm pretty sure Sporeegg's point is that he wants a permanent dominate effect spell so he can pick some NPC and force him/her/it to be his permanent meatshield (hence why he specified non-undead). However, even if there was a mster-level spell for that the sad fact is the master-level illusion spells are just terrible (outside of power-leveling in cities). At even mid-tier levels you need to dual-cast the spells to get the effective level boost or they become useless, and the master spells cannot be dual-cast. Harmony, for example, with all perks will never hit anything above level 43. Pacify, with just the dual-cast perk can hit 44 and dual-cast with perks can hit up to 83.
    Eh, Harmony is AOE. Given the rather large radius, and the fact that most enemies in your vicinity won't actually be above level 40 anyway, it's perfectly good for quickly neutralizing a large number of enemies in your vicinity, letting you use your single target Expert spell on the few enemies too dangerous to be affected by your AOE combat reset button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?
    Imagine you're the Flash, but you have the reaction time of a normal person. So, you lightly tap the movement button and immediately shoot all the way to the end of the room and smack into the wall. Trying to navigate is almost impossible, and that's just indoors. Outside, it's even worse, and there's a good chance you'll just crash the game from trying to load too much too quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

    Seems unsatisfying somehow.

    But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

    I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?
    You don't actually have to stab Dagoth after the Heart is destroyed. He despawns on his own.

    What basically happens is that when you start stabbing the Heart, Dagoth teleports to be right behind you (in case you left him so high up on the way down he couldn't catch up to you) to try and stop you. But destroying the Heart doesn't take long, so he doesn't really have time to attack you, so he gets immediately into his death throes, and vanishes without a trace.

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    Do we really need to go accusing each other when we have a perfectly good Dev to blame?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.
    Why? Why should you be able to swing your sword or shoot your bow tirelessly for nothing, yet run out of Magicka after casting 2 master-level spells? Look, I'll freely admit that Bethesda isn't the best for play-testing and balancing their game systems, but I'd argue that even *with* infinite spells, spellcasting in Skyrim is far inferior to weapons with a similar investment in supporting perks and skills. With the right mix of crafting and weapon perks, you can make your Dovahkiin an invincible demigod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talion View Post
    Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.
    I dunno, from a metaphysical perspective that sounds like typical Elder Scrolls to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! ).
    I said thralls. Mechanically indifferent from companions but roleplaywise VERY different. Basically what if you could have Maven Blackbriar suddenly be your meat shield? Beefed up with armor, weapons and supporting illusion spells to rip a dragon a new one?

    Then you'd have greatness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.
    If you imply that TES stories are not fun or good, I disagree. If you imply some glitches are hilarious, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.
    In a manner of silly superhuman anime style, it is hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talion View Post
    It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

    Edit: Mind, for those who aren't in the know, this is normally impossible as both Dagoth Ur and the Heart of Lorkhan have 1,000 health each and regenerate dozens, if not hundreds, of health points per frame.
    And there aren't spells or custom weapon enchants that simply reduce the regeneration to zero?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    This.



    Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

    Seems unsatisfying somehow.

    But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

    I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?
    Basically the same. It didn't feel so much like the Lord of the Rings finale in the active volcano as much as walking into the doom fortress unplugging the evil lich's phyalctery charger.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?
    Ever used the Icarus scroll that you look from the falling Wizard? Crank that speed up to 10x. You basically cross loading zones before the world has spawned around you, making the game crash. One thing most gamers forget nowadays with "seamlesss open worlds" is that the prevalent technology is still that the game just loads the area in the vicinity. If you are in Sadrith Mora, Vivec city is not there, it is stored in the game data, and then modified by your save file data if it is loaded.

    As an aside, I hate how the interactive design of TES (you can move even minor useless objects) leads sometimes to gigantic save files that won't load anymore because the game has to make sure it removes and topples every bowl and bottle I have ever touched. Cell resets could be a bit more regular imho. My nord warrior save loads almost 2 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I wouldn't describe stacking enchantments as an exploit. It's just the game as designed. Let's not pretend that there's no opportunity cost or resource investment in stacking fortify school enchantments on your equipment. Also, it's not like wanging on enemies with a blade or a bow costs any consumable resource.
    And it is bad design. Rogue skill design? Make locks easier to pick, give better prices at markets, make potions stronger. Warrior skill design? Make armor stronger, weapons sharper. Mage skill design? Everything is cheaper. No, your fireball will not hit for more damage. Ignoring fire resistance? What do you think you are? Some kind of WIZARD?

    I wasn't aware there was any illusion spell in the base game which converts a NPC into a permanent ally, in the way that Dead Thrall does. All you get are calm, fury, fear, and courage. But honestly, is there anything in the game you can't tackle with that kit, plus a retainer.
    That is not the POINT my friend. I could tackle the flipping game with a good onehanded sword and a naked character as long as I have enough health potions and an suitably strong smithing and alchemy skill.

    The point is that illusion - or rather enchantment if you use D&D terms - is used to dominate the minds of others. And what is greater than the complete dominance of an entire character. The only thing I could imagine speaking against this is the problem that people just used quest NPCs as their dominated minions before they are tagged essential.

    And you know Bethesda. You can't simply screw yourself out of a quest. That would be bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.
    Agreed. While switching the enchantments to "do x% more damage" is equally stupid after a certain point since your novice spells create a demonic inferno, I'd basically do "do x/2 % more damage, spells cost x/2% less magicka" today if I were making a mod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?
    I think this case is being overstated. Speed is the one stat that I have had over 200 - probably close to 300, even, using a legit in-game artifact - and while it's a bit of a shock at first, you pretty soon get used to it.
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    Anybody else watching Sorcererdave's Skyrim let's play? It's impressing two things--no, let's say three things--on me.

    First is that I desperately want to play a mage again.

    The second is that the earliest stages of the game are the most fun. You know, the stages where you desperately struggle to defeat anything? It means that you approach the game differently than you do when you can face-tank anything the game can throw at you. You strategize, you think, you panic when a plan goes wrong, you exult over a fallen foe because the plan went right. Half of that is the Yet Another Skyrim Hardcore mod he's using, which I want to steal for my own next playthrough.

    The third realization is that Chadwick, my Skyrim LP character is... well, he needs nerfs. For my own enjoyment of the game, I think I need to recreate his gear, but without such strong enchantments and smithing bonuses. Being weaker means I'll be able to keep going a lot longer while still enjoying myself, as right now he's in that unfortunate Bethesda end-game state where nothing can challenge him anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I think this case is being overstated. Speed is the one stat that I have had over 200 - probably close to 300, even, using a legit in-game artifact - and while it's a bit of a shock at first, you pretty soon get used to it.
    Aye, agreed. My Morrowind Let's Play character, Chord the Bard, has about 300 speed when he's wearing the Boots of Blinding Speed. He'll hit the edge of loaded chunks and require a few seconds' worth of "area loading," but it's not catastrophic or game-breaking.

    With that said, there is a gamebreaking bug with excess Speed, which is that when you hit a certain amount of it, you get fast enough to clip through the world. If you look up Morrowind speedruns, you can beat the game in under three minutes by using a scroll of Icarian Flight to jump to the final dungeons, grabbing Keening, and hotswapping between weapons to simultaneously avoid dying and gain enough speed to clip through the world straight to the end of the dungeons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    I said thralls.
    Which is where the confusion started, because the spells for permanently summoning things have "Thrall" in the title--e.g. Dead Thrall will permanently summon an undead companion, Storm Thrall a Storm Atronach, etc.

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    May 2008
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Imagine you're the Flash, but you have the reaction time of a normal person. So, you lightly tap the movement button and immediately shoot all the way to the end of the room and smack into the wall. Trying to navigate is almost impossible, and that's just indoors. Outside, it's even worse, and there's a good chance you'll just crash the game from trying to load too much too quickly.
    Ah, so about as well as I imagined. I've fallen through world floors before, in games when the world failed to load said floor in time for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    As an aside, I hate how the interactive design of TES (you can move even minor useless objects) leads sometimes to gigantic save files that won't load anymore because the game has to make sure it removes and topples every bowl and bottle I have ever touched. Cell resets could be a bit more regular imho. My nord warrior save loads almost 2 minutes.
    This was the one big downside I had with the Fallout 3/NV mods that added more interior places to explore. The mod creators just littered these new rooms with so much extra loose junk that the save bloat was crazy. Cell reset mods are practically required in my mod lists if I want to play a character for a long while.
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