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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    other topic.
    I think TES does itself a favour by keeping away from 'paladins'
    There's no arcane/divine divide in TES.
    I can see reason for the playstyle; Restoration was great for melee fighters when it could fortify, and I understand some aedra/daedra and various orders hate the undead and specialise in their eradication, but I don't think there's stuff there for a DnD style Paladin, and I think that's a good thing. Vigilants of stendar are cool, but they're not channeling divinity or acting for justness and goodness.
    The standard 'Crusader' and 'Knight' classes of Morrowind and Oblivion seem to me as though they fill pretty much the same niche as a D&D Paladin. Not exactly, of course, but the Knight has a lot of the same "heavily-armored warrior with a dash of magic who abides by a code of behavior" and the Crusader has a lot of the same "heavily-armored holy warrior with a dash of magic who seeks out and destroys/opposes evil" that D&D's Paladins have, when you consider the class skills and description. Going by the class descriptions, Crusader's probably a better fit for the less restrictive paladin class of more recent D&D while knight's probably a better fit for the more restrictive paladin class of older D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowind Crusader class description
    Any heavily armored warrior with spellcasting powers and a good cause may call himself a Crusader. Crusaders do well by doing good. They hunt monsters and villains, making themselves rich by plunder as they rid the world of evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowind Knight class description
    Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    No, the Thalmor are a reaction to the events of Oblivion. While their beliefs regarding the inferiority of non-elves may have been common in Aldmeri culture, it was the Oblivion crisis which impelled those beliefs into a political movement which seized power and drove them into war with the Empire.
    Depends on what you mean. There was a faction within the Aldmeri Dominion that went by 'Thalmor' as far back as the Second Era and the First Aldmeri Dominion in ESO. They got powerful after the Oblivion Crisis, and somewhere between Ayrenn and now they went from unlikeable-but-legitimate to want-to-destroy-the-world crazy evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Re: loss of Morrowind, my impression is that Bethesda's intent isn't so much that Morrowind had broken away from the Empire as that Morrowind remained sufficiently damaged by the fall of Baar Dao and the resultant eruption of Red Mountain in 4E 5 and the following Argonian invasion as to not be a particularly significant factor in the Great War - The Great War, for example, implies that Morrowind is still part of the empire, at least as of the start of the Great War in 4E 171.
    IIRC the Keyes books had a casual mention that Morrowind had in fact left the Empire - but as that's the only place I recall reading it I doubt it lasted a significant amount of time. They really weren't in good shape to go solo.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    The standard 'Crusader' and 'Knight' classes of Morrowind and Oblivion seem to me as though they fill pretty much the same niche as a D&D Paladin. Not exactly, of course, but the Knight has a lot of the same "heavily-armored warrior with a dash of magic who abides by a code of behavior" and the Crusader has a lot of the same "heavily-armored holy warrior with a dash of magic who seeks out and destroys/opposes evil" that D&D's Paladins have, when you consider the class skills and description. Going by the class descriptions, Crusader's probably a better fit for the less restrictive paladin class of more recent D&D while knight's probably a better fit for the more restrictive paladin class of older D&D.
    Eh.... this goes well with my 'class descriptions are the worst' complaint about morrowind. Someone splurged over their keyboard because they could write that thing that was cool in that DnD game they played a while back... I don't think the actual game does much to really...

    I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...

    When Tes has something like a paladin, it feels more like a DnD throwback than something belonging to the world in it's own right.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

    I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

    I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?
    A sword repository, at least in my games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    IIRC the Keyes books had a casual mention that Morrowind had in fact left the Empire - but as that's the only place I recall reading it I doubt it lasted a significant amount of time. They really weren't in good shape to go solo.
    The main reason they left, as far as I recall, is because they'd lost faith in the ability of the Empire to protect them--after all, it never came to their aid when the Argonians came knocking, and I don't think there's much talk of assistance being sent to help the victims of the Red Mountain eruption. Anti-Empire leaders got put in place who declared they weren't going to do what the Empire asked anymore, so even if Morrowind is still technically part of the Empire, it doesn't consider itself as such.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

    I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?
    A religious soldier is very different from a soldier powered by his religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    A sword repository, at least in my games.
    Was going to say 'good loot'

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I was under the long-standing assumption that the Red Year was 4E 12. Has it already been ret-conned to 4E 5 or did something else happen in 4E 12 that I'm confusing it with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I was under the long-standing assumption that the Red Year was 4E 12. Has it already been ret-conned to 4E 5 or did something else happen in 4E 12 that I'm confusing it with?
    I'm not sure where you got 4E12 from to begin with - can't seem to find anything related to that specific date, even in the old versions of the UESP timeline page.
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    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    You miss about half my point. First a "paladin" or "knight" is a stereotype for me, that has to be catered to in at least some extent, either mechanically (heavy armor with weapons and restoration magic) or in spirit (even if Altmer warriors just feel they are 'purging' the world from human and beastkin filth).

    Secondly I feel the "there is a mod for that' argument is invalid as much as the argument of 'my head canon says different' is no argument. If someone made up something, or you made up something in your head doesn't mean the base game works without that.

    But yes, my inability to form coherent arguments is not doing me any good in that discussion I am afraid. I always struggled with the art of writing precisely.

    Plus some of my main complaint is about the rail-roady nature of quests. Meridia does not allow you to side with the necromancer but that is not terribly bad since it is no main quest. It is just odd that you can repeatedly decline her requests and still be sent inside and given the sword. It is about main quests, the most notable situations:

    - Cannot decline werewolf form
    - Cannot decline worship of Nocturnal (and be present with the skeleton key, the alternate reward was RIGHT THERE!)
    - Cannot accept the power of the Eye of Magnus (damn railroady Psijic!)
    - Nothing to do aside from burning down the Sanctuary of the Brotherhood (no alternative to killing Grelod)

    I am deeply fine with the nature of the civil war quests and the main quest (since you can't simply refuse being the dragonborn since the universe just would stop exisiting then).

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    - Cannot decline worship of Nocturnal (and be present with the skeleton key, the alternate reward was RIGHT THERE!)
    If only if that were the only thing wrong with the Thieves' Guild questline...

    Seriously, railroady quests is pretty much a given in Bethesda games for a long time. Even when they *do* appear to give you a choice, it usually doesn't make any difference in the long run--for example, the entire Dawnguard quest line is clearly written with the assumption you'll leave the Dawnguard and become a vampire after rescuing Serana, so if you choose to stay in the Dawnguard it all gets a bit illogical after that.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Besides wandering around and just killing stuff, I download a lot of quest mods. Stuff like Forgotten City and things like that. Gives me a bit more mileage. Plus I think SOME of the Daedric quests are fine for a Good character. Meridia's and Azura's spring to mind. Maybe CLavicus Vile, I do 't remember him asking you to do anything bad. And Sanguine's is all right.
    Nothing wrong with Sheogorath's. You can slaughter Namira's cannibal cult, fight a giant for Malacath, hunt down Sinding. Oh, and of course if you don't send the Skull of Corruption back to Oblivion, you're a massive scumbag anyway.

    (Actually that's one of my beefs: the "compulsory" quests that you just can't ignore. That, and Blood on the Ice, are the worst examples.)

    The House of Horrors is a definite downer, but since you have no choice but to kill the idiot Vigilant anyway, I think it's compatible with a paladin character. 'Course you'd need to do some soul-searching and atonement afterwards, but evil acts that are forced on you are forgivable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...
    You seem to consider "paladin" as a D&D class. You know that the word, and its meaning, is much, much older than that, right? - and has nothing to do with spellcasting, or gods or demons.
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    Yes, such railroad to have to complete this quest by completing this quest. Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Yes, such railroad to have to complete this quest by completing this quest. Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.
    It's entirely fair to complain about railroad quests when we've seen from other games that it doesn't have to be like that? Even Bethesda managed to do questlines with proper choices in the Far Harbour expansion for Fallout 4, so they're entirely capable of doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    (Actually that's one of my beefs: the "compulsory" quests that you just can't ignore. That, and Blood on the Ice, are the worst examples.)
    I liked the ideas behind Blood on the Ice. Execution is off and a bit buggy where you have to wait around for the killer to strike again. And then hope you don't accidentally hit the victim. Like, I wish there was a way to gather evidence on the killer and turn it in to the city guard. Then watch them bust down the killer's door and arrest them.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    You seem to consider "paladin" as a D&D class. You know that the word, and its meaning, is much, much older than that, right? - and has nothing to do with spellcasting, or gods or demons.
    I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.


    I consider the nocturnal stuff the most heinous plot point in skyrim before Dawnguard was a thing. You get a tiny buff that was unnecessary and give your soul away to be a security guard for all eternity. It's obviously not worth it. You shouldn't need it. Yet you go through with it. The TG questline is filled with grievous errors, but this one was the worst because it was forced, hardly relevant to the plot (you could've given your soul away at any point and it would've made no difference) and greatly damaging to RP (So I'm playing a moron who gets sucked into cults now?) At least with the Karliah shooting you rather than mercer, it was important to the continuation of the plot, and they tried to justify it. Soul selling? They forced you into it because they made a lightshow with animations and GOD DAMN you have to see that if they're going through the trouble to make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.
    Not in those two cases, I can't. Not without being wilfully obtuse. I mean, I can turn a blind eye to the sole single Redguard woman in Whiterun, I can (with some difficulty) avoid talking to the idiot vigilant in Markarth, I don't even have to enter the alchemist shop in Windhelm (because there are two general stores in the city). In Falkreath I have a mod that adds a second blacksmith, so I don't have to "catch" that blasted mutt. But some quests throw themselves in my path so obtrusively, I can't ignore them without quite literally pretending to be temporarily deaf.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.
    I disagree. It's entirely possible to discuss paladins as a thing that is quite separate from D&D. The D&D class is merely one interpretation/implementation of the idea. There is no reason to treat anything about it as "authoritative".

    About Nocturnal, on the other hand, I completely agree. Although I don't actually mind Dawnguard that much.
    Last edited by veti; 2019-01-16 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I disagree. It's entirely possible to discuss paladins as a thing that is quite separate from D&D. The D&D class is merely one interpretation/implementation of the idea. There is no reason to treat anything about it as "authoritative".
    With respect, I think you two are getting hung up on semantics, rather than the core issue, which i suspect all parties would agree on: many of Skyrim's stories are very heavily railroady, in a way that often skews towards the nefarious. If you plumb the depths of most of the scripted Skyrim plotlines, virtually all of them assume your character is willing to undertake some very dark, morally questionable decisions.

    Now, personally, I tend not to take issue with such things, because that's just the nature of the medium: There's only road where the game designers have built it, and branching plots of consequence are very expensive. You're effectively constructing hours of content most players might never see. Also, this kind of railroading isn't totally unheard of, even with a living, breathing, in-person GM, in tabletop RPGs. The storyteller has a plot they want to tell, and they're not quite prepared to improvise in the direction that the players want to.

    It's these problems that usually drives me away from fussing over the narrative very much in CRPGs, or games in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Eh.... this goes well with my 'class descriptions are the worst' complaint about morrowind. Someone splurged over their keyboard because they could write that thing that was cool in that DnD game they played a while back... I don't think the actual game does much to really...

    I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...

    When Tes has something like a paladin, it feels more like a DnD throwback than something belonging to the world in it's own right.
    I'm really not sure what your problem with the class descriptions is. A crusader, in modern English, is very much someone who has dedicated themselves, often to an almost-fanatical extent, to a struggle against something that they see as evil, while the 'traditional' image of a knight is that of the honorable noble warrior bound by the codes of chivalry who probably goes off on knightly quests and rescues fair damsels from horrid beasts or some other such nonsense. This isn't "contaminating TES with something that was cool in D&D," it's adapting modern concepts to the setting. There are reasonably strong similarities with D&D's Paladins, but this should be unsurprising - D&D's Paladins are derived from the same cultural archetype of the noble questing warrior bound by a chivalric code and crusading against evil from which the descriptions of the Crusader and Knight classes in Morrowind and Oblivion are drawn.

    If you really want to complain about D&D concepts contaminating TES games, maybe try the spellcasting-in-armor penalty that Oblivion had and Morrowind did not, which made certain schools of magic effectively worthless for the mage-knight/spellsword/arcane warrior or whatever else you might want to call it at higher levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    With respect, I think you two are getting hung up on semantics, rather than the core issue, which i suspect all parties would agree on: many of Skyrim's stories are very heavily railroady, in a way that often skews towards the nefarious. If you plumb the depths of most of the scripted Skyrim plotlines, virtually all of them assume your character is willing to undertake some very dark, morally questionable decisions.

    Now, personally, I tend not to take issue with such things, because that's just the nature of the medium: There's only road where the game designers have built it, and branching plots of consequence are very expensive. You're effectively constructing hours of content most players might never see. Also, this kind of railroading isn't totally unheard of, even with a living, breathing, in-person GM, in tabletop RPGs. The storyteller has a plot they want to tell, and they're not quite prepared to improvise in the direction that the players want to.

    It's these problems that usually drives me away from fussing over the narrative very much in CRPGs, or games in general.
    I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."
    Very much this. While we're wishing, how about an option to turn in that Argonian who wants you to get that ship sunk and then backstabs you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."

    Molag Baal? How about NOlag Baal.
    I think the world would be a better place if I wiped out the Boethiah worshipers.
    Hey, Companions, I'm not going to murder you all, but Aleia, you say you have a job for me?
    My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.
    What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?
    Iirc, it's something like you have to do the beginning of the Thieves' guild questline to get their help. An exchange of services, so to speak.
    It just so happens that the service you accomplish for them makes you part of the guild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.
    Can't you get the same info from the lady who runs the Bee and Barb? Or just find Esbern by wandering the sewers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Can't you get the same info from the lady who runs the Bee and Barb? Or just find Esbern by wandering the sewers?
    You know, ive never actually asked the innkeeper. And yeah, technically you can just ignore the Thieves Guild and just go to where he is manually, but from an immersion perspective I find that undesirable.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    If you know where Esbern is, you can totally skip Brynjolf and head to the man himself. Everything goes normally.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Celestia's Avatar

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    Dec 2016
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    You can also just tell Brynjolf that you're trying to stop the dragons, and he'll tell you about Esbern for free. I do think it requires a persuasion check, though.
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  29. - Top - End - #209
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?
    You don't have to.

    I think you do have to join the College, though. Which is just as much of a drag. I'm not sure the College plotline, if you choose to follow it through, isn't even worse than the Guild one.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Even the college can be ignored if you remember where Septimus Signus outpost is. Or are willing to wander around looking for it on the ice sheet.
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