The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx? I mean, I know it's only a computer RPG and thus a collection of bits and bytes, but some of us do like to at least *try* to stay in character. (Which is why I get annoyed when my assassin character tries to kill Ancano for giving her lip, and the game doesn't allow it...).

    Also, knowing where places are doesn't always help. If you go to the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary before killing Grelod the Kind and having your meeting with Astrid, you can't do anything there and you can't tell the guards about it--the only way to destroy the Brotherhood is to start the Dark Brotherhood questline and then kill Astrid in the Abandoned Shack.
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-01-17 at 03:15 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx?
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?
    You don't, that's exactly the point. You also can't watch the door and wait, nobody will ever enter or leave the place. Ever.

    I'm not sure if it's really the railroading I mind. I've enjoyed plenty of games that were way more railroady than Skyrim. I think it's more the sheer nonsensical badness of the script that you have to sit through, to get anything done.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.
    If you're genuinely just wandering about randomly that's fine. It's when you're *pretending* to wander randomly when secretly you're looking for a place your character shouldn't know exists it gets iffy.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    The way I see it, joining those organizations can be considered to be more something that the organizations want rather than what the game designer wants. Imagine the prestige you would gain from being able to say "Yeah, the Dragonborn is in our gang". Even if you're not necessarily doing anything for them, you're still part of their group. Both the Thieves' guild and the College are down on their luck and are at risk of disappearing, so the boost in notoriety they could claim from Dragonborn membership would be impressive by any measure.

    So think of it less like doing something awful and more like being pressured to join an exclusive club so they can brag to their buddies they got to meet the Dragonborn.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.
    Six flavors of training (including three master trainers) and the only way to get high level spells. Plus, five merchants to sell things to. Seems like useful stuff.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    So, fun quests that might have existed:

    1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
    2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
    3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?

    I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, fun quests that might have existed:

    1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
    2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
    3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?

    I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
    That's just plain bad game design there.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
    Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I think Skyrim and Oblivion could do with not having protected characters. Although I suppose that it's pretty much inevitable since they can die from anything that isn't you, and it would kind of suck to have an important character just die constantly in a quest because a dragon decided to chomp Delphine.
    Not that I would shed tears for her, but y'know, you do need her to continue the main quest.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    That's just plain bad game design there.
    Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P
    Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.



    Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.
    No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
    I would also add that unlike the TG, the DB is not beholden to the Blackbriars and, especially without the TG at her disposal, would not care overmuch about her opinion.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
    Because (Keltest's clarification aside), they're not unrelated. They're related by a shared patron (though, as Keltest points out, I was wrong about the degree of influence Maven had on the DB).
    The Cranky Gamer
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
    Because she's an ass
    Her power is imaginary.
    She's no good.

    She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....

    The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.

    It's terrible game/story design. I can't fathom why they thought she was a good idea.


    I miss the days of morrowind; You could kill essentials, even gods, and you could also steal everything not nailed down (there was no need for invisible chests under the map)

    Games should go back to that. Maybe they could get better at it, maybe they could have replacements for characters. But they should definitely try to go back to that.
    Last edited by The Jack; 2019-01-17 at 12:44 PM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-01-17 at 10:47 PM.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-01-17 at 10:47 PM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.
    It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.
    I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

    In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

    In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
    The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.
    Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Just doing the main quest in Morrowind makes a bunch of important people hate you enough that if you show up in Vivec, you get attacked by guards. And you certainly haven't done anything like dismantle an entire organization (although you're technically in the process of doing it, I suppose).

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.
    And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.
    I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.

    What is the problem?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
    Because she's an ass
    Her power is imaginary.
    She's no good.

    She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....

    The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.
    I'm not a fan of the essential tag either, but it's also just a necessary constraint of the medium. The designers can't anticipate every single person you'll want to merc and create a list of alternate mission actors to carry out their role when they're dead. That said, Maven's power isn't imaginary. She's just not more powerful than the Dovakhiin, literally the most powerful individual on Tamriel who isn't a Daedra. John Gotti wasn't a feared mobster because someone was worried he was going to punch through their sternum like Mola Ram. He was feared because there were a bunch of other dangerous people who obeyed him.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Well, I'm of the opinion that if you go around murdering npcs for ****s and giggles (or simply since you don't like them) you should be prepared to being unable to do some of the content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.

    What is the problem?
    Because your options are join a faction you don't want to join, ruin your chance of joining a faction you to want to join, or not play the game. In other words, your options are bad, more bad, and worst. I really don't get how this is so difficult.
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