The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Because your options are join a faction you don't want to join, ruin your chance of joining a faction you to want to join, or not play the game. In other words, your options are bad, more bad, and worst. I really don't get how this is so difficult.
    Because those aren't your options at all? Why on earth do you think you would be forced to join a faction you don't want to join? And if you want to join another faction, you should probably think twice before antagonizing its friends.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because those aren't your options at all? Why on earth do you think you would be forced to join a faction you don't want to join? And if you want to join another faction, you should probably think twice before antagonizing its friends.
    Okay, it's clear that you're just not even reading my posts, so I'm done with this pointless argument.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Hey, I haven't explored much of the civil war to know how it works, but if you finish the civil war and completed it with either of the 2 sides declaring victory, do all the quests in the towns that were conquered remain the same as if you didn't join the civil war? What I mean is, if you haven't really explored like, say Riften, and then help the Empire reclaim Riften and win the war, are all the available quests to start in Riften still there for the questing?
    Last edited by Silverraptor; 2019-01-17 at 02:18 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Okay, it's clear that you're just not even reading my posts, so I'm done with this pointless argument.
    I am reading them. Youre just being inconsistent and explaining yourself poorly. At no point did anybody mention being forced to join factions you didn't want to, that was something you just brought up out of the blue without prompting. Youre trying to convince us that its bad game design to have your actions involving one faction lock you out of a different faction, but you aren't actually doing anything to explain why this is bad. You said something about being punished for your lack of action, but doing, say, the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest is in fact an action and deliberate choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    Hey, I haven't explored much of the civil war to know how it works, but if you finish the civil war and completed it with either of the 2 sides declaring victory, do all the quests in the towns that were conquered remain the same as if you didn't join the civil war? What I mean is, if you haven't really explored like, say Riften, and then help the Empire reclaim Riften and win the war, are all the available quests to start in Riften still there for the questing?
    Most of them yes. There are a few NPCs, mostly Thalmor, who disappear if the Stormcloaks win, and obviously any quests directly involving the Civil War become unavailable, but otherwise the quests in the towns are largely separate from the war.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-01-17 at 02:21 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Most of them yes. There are a few NPCs, mostly Thalmor, who disappear if the Stormcloaks win, and obviously any quests directly involving the Civil War become unavailable, but otherwise the quests in the towns are largely separate from the war.
    They even make sure that the jarls and their stewards who get kicked out of the towns as you capture them for one side or the other are still available in case you had any open quests with them--all the Empire-loving ones end up in the basement of the Blue Palace in Solitude, and the Stormcloak ones are in the palace in Windhelm.
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-01-18 at 02:35 AM. Reason: jarl not thane

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Sadly, the civil war storyline was a bit half-assed due to time constraints, so a lot of things around it are a bit lacking. It's a lot of wasted potential.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Just doing the main quest in Morrowind makes a bunch of important people hate you enough that if you show up in Vivec, you get attacked by guards. And you certainly haven't done anything like dismantle an entire organization (although you're technically in the process of doing it, I suppose).
    You can get the Ordinators to hate you and attack you on sight just by wearing a piece of armor you can get as a quest reward for some random side-quest in Vivec itself (Mysterious Killings in Vivec). The guy who gives you the armor - an Ordinator higher-up, essentially - warns you that the Ordinators will likely attack you if they see you wearing it, and my recollection is that it's a lot less reversible and arguably less avoidable than the Ordinator hostility encountered during the Main Quest.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2019-01-17 at 05:56 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

    In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
    I agree with Keltest, here. One of the annoying things for me is how LITTLE reputation counts in Skyrim. I'm Harbinger of the Companions, Head of the Mage's College, Thane of different holds, and openly carrying several daedric artifacts... and guards in Riften, where I've just shown up, will comment on me being a sneak-thief (despite only having like a 30 Pickpocket and 100 in six other skills), or try to shake me down at the gate.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    John Gotti wasn't a feared mobster because someone was worried he was going to punch through their sternum like Mola Ram. He was feared because there were a bunch of other dangerous people who obeyed him.
    Context. It's a lot harder to kill someone and get away with it in the modern world than it is in skyrim. In skyrim you've got small goverment, powers, easy access to armour and weapons... There's little comparison.

    If Maven Blackbriar had a guard that rivaled a dragon priest, or some magic item, or secluded herself in well defended places, or had an active network around her at all times, or maybe if she herself had some ability, then I'd buy it.

    Maven has none of these things. She's a commoner who walks around in daylight with no concern. She's rude, she's arrogant, everybody hates her, and I happen to be a stranger with nothing to lose that anybody knows about and a pair of discount invisibility potions...

    Thing is, It'd be really cool if they'd actually set up Maven with something plausible, but they don't. She's the kind of character that, in a pen and paper game, I'd spend several sessions working out a plan to kill someone with such status, but in skyrim She has money, she has ties, and some prick say stuff when you enter the city; But the only thing that stops you from bashing her head in with a candle holder is the fact that she's essential.

    She has the kind of reputation that'd demand an epic assassination quest, but the character herself in practice is severely lacking.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Context. It's a lot harder to kill someone and get away with it in the modern world than it is in skyrim. In skyrim you've got small goverment, powers, easy access to armour and weapons... There's little comparison.

    If Maven Blackbriar had a guard that rivaled a dragon priest, or some magic item, or secluded herself in well defended places, or had an active network around her at all times, or maybe if she herself had some ability, then I'd buy it.

    Maven has none of these things. She's a commoner who walks around in daylight with no concern. She's rude, she's arrogant, everybody hates her, and I happen to be a stranger with nothing to lose that anybody knows about and a pair of discount invisibility potions...

    Thing is, It'd be really cool if they'd actually set up Maven with something plausible, but they don't. She's the kind of character that, in a pen and paper game, I'd spend several sessions working out a plan to kill someone with such status, but in skyrim She has money, she has ties, and some prick say stuff when you enter the city; But the only thing that stops you from bashing her head in with a candle holder is the fact that she's essential.

    She has the kind of reputation that'd demand an epic assassination quest, but the character herself in practice is severely lacking.
    And this is before you take into account the fact that as Dragonborn we can literally shout her into last week, and nobody can do anything to stop you, preemptively or otherwise.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I agree with Keltest, here. One of the annoying things for me is how LITTLE reputation counts in Skyrim. I'm Harbinger of the Companions, Head of the Mage's College, Thane of different holds, and openly carrying several daedric artifacts... and guards in Riften, where I've just shown up, will comment on me being a sneak-thief (despite only having like a 30 Pickpocket and 100 in six other skills), or try to shake me down at the gate.
    Also second this. IIRC there's even a few times where a questgiver (Calcelmo I believe was one) knows you personally owing to having done a different quest for them but they're not one bit friendlier or more helpful despite you having already gone out of your way to help them once before.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    I recently discovered this and could not stop watching. This is hilarious!


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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I'm not a fan of the essential tag either, but it's also just a necessary constraint of the medium. The designers can't anticipate every single person you'll want to merc and create a list of alternate mission actors to carry out their role when they're dead.
    Actually, there's no particular reason why not. They do exactly that with the thanes, who might get replaced as part of the civil war. There's no reason, except budget, why they couldn't do the same with every other "essential" NPC.

    But would that be any more satisfying? It does seem a bit pointless to off someone, if you know they'll immediately be replaced by someone else speaking their lines.

    The only NPC I really resent not being able to kill is Maven. Far, far worse than Elenwen.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Also second this. IIRC there's even a few times where a questgiver (Calcelmo I believe was one) knows you personally owing to having done a different quest for them but they're not one bit friendlier or more helpful despite you having already gone out of your way to help them once before.
    The best example I ever saw of that was in Oblivion. There's a side quest in there where you have to rescue a man who's somehow got magically bound into a painting. If you succeed the man's wife thanks you profusely, as you'd expect. If you then try to speak to her again, she says, "What are you doing in my house? Get out!".

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Actually, there's no particular reason why not. They do exactly that with the thanes, who might get replaced as part of the civil war. There's no reason, except budget, why they couldn't do the same with every other "essential" NPC.

    But would that be any more satisfying? It does seem a bit pointless to off someone, if you know they'll immediately be replaced by someone else speaking their lines.

    The only NPC I really resent not being able to kill is Maven. Far, far worse than Elenwen.
    Except the transition of power from the Thanes is a a planned event. You mercing Maven Black-Briar because she sassed you isn't something that the designer planned. Also, "no reason except budget" is kind of a non-expression. Budget is the reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The best example I ever saw of that was in Oblivion. There's a side quest in there where you have to rescue a man who's somehow got magically bound into a painting. If you succeed the man's wife thanks you profusely, as you'd expect. If you then try to speak to her again, she says, "What are you doing in my house? Get out!".
    If my experience in the service industry is any indicator, that is the most realistic interaction by far. And to be honest she doesn't owe you shelter technically.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    If my experience in the service industry is any indicator, that is the most realistic interaction by far. And to be honest she doesn't owe you shelter technically.
    Maybe, but I'm pretty sure her exact final words were something along the lines of "You're always welcome here", which is why this exchange sticks in my mind a decade later!

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The best example I ever saw of that was in Oblivion. There's a side quest in there where you have to rescue a man who's somehow got magically bound into a painting. If you succeed the man's wife thanks you profusely, as you'd expect. If you then try to speak to her again, she says, "What are you doing in my house? Get out!".
    That seems like a quirk of the programming because you're in her house in the middle of the night and NPCs are programmed to demand that you leave the premises if you are in their house while they should be sleeping.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Except the transition of power from the Thanes is a a planned event. You mercing Maven Black-Briar because she sassed you isn't something that the designer planned. Also, "no reason except budget" is kind of a non-expression. Budget is the reason.
    If the designers couldn't figure out that at sizable portion of the gaming audience would be offended and want to kill Maven, they weren't paying attention. She's intentionally offensive, and unlike that one Thalmor in the college she isn't a main antagonist for a quest line.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If the designers couldn't figure out that at sizable portion of the gaming audience would be offended and want to kill Maven, they weren't paying attention. She's intentionally offensive, and unlike that one Thalmor in the college she isn't a main antagonist for a quest line.
    She isn't a main antagonist, but she has her fingers in the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, becomes the Jarl should the Empire control Riften plus has minor involvement in a quest or two beyond that. Replacing her with a single character could easily feel off, while distributing those roles among more than one not only changes certain aspects of the situation but also increases the risk the replacements get killed by the pc "for reasons".

    Although as I said, I'm in the camp "you killed this npc important for those reasons? enjoy being blocked from the related content.".
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    She isn't a main antagonist, but she has her fingers in the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, becomes the Jarl should the Empire control Riften plus has minor involvement in a quest or two beyond that. Replacing her with a single character could easily feel off, while distributing those roles among more than one not only changes certain aspects of the situation but also increases the risk the replacements get killed by the pc "for reasons".

    Although as I said, I'm in the camp "you killed this npc important for those reasons? enjoy being blocked from the related content.".
    What related content though? She exists, briefly, for the Thieves Guild questline, and that's the only quest role they couldn't easily have just given to somebody else. Heck, it would actually strengthen her status as a crime lord if she wasn't made Jarl, but one of her minions instead.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Sounds to me like a lot of the things that Skyrim could have done better are immersion things. Maven is a character that could have brought interesting experiences in Riften. The kind of thing where you should feel her presence, but not necessarily see her except under heavy guard (and hidden guards) and protected by powerful enchantments in case someone gets any bright ideas. And if you do manage to kill her, you're marked for death every time you enter the Hold, with bounty hunters and mercenaries being constantly on the prowl for you. Guards mysteriously disappear once in a while when you are in Riften, allowing assassins to attack you with impunity (not that guards protect you from mercs who try to beat you up when you steal from someone but that's another matter), merchants lock their doors and leave their stands, inns are always full, people are fearful whenever you talk to them...
    And you are never safe, because Maven had her fingers in so many pies that no matter how many people you kill, there's always someone else with deep enough pockets to make your life hell.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Sounds to me like a lot of the things that Skyrim could have done better are immersion things. Maven is a character that could have brought interesting experiences in Riften. The kind of thing where you should feel her presence, but not necessarily see her except under heavy guard (and hidden guards) and protected by powerful enchantments in case someone gets any bright ideas. And if you do manage to kill her, you're marked for death every time you enter the Hold, with bounty hunters and mercenaries being constantly on the prowl for you. Guards mysteriously disappear once in a while when you are in Riften, allowing assassins to attack you with impunity (not that guards protect you from mercs who try to beat you up when you steal from someone but that's another matter), merchants lock their doors and leave their stands, inns are always full, people are fearful whenever you talk to them...
    And you are never safe, because Maven had her fingers in so many pies that no matter how many people you kill, there's always someone else with deep enough pockets to make your life hell.
    I think the biggest thing that bothers me about Maven is that ultimately, the entirety of her power comes from being rich enough to afford the DB and Thieves Guild. Big Deal. I make more money running through a nord tomb in an hour than you do in a year with your meadery. Potentially, you can actually lead both of those organizations, and she still acts like she's the one with the power in that relationship.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think the biggest thing that bothers me about Maven is that ultimately, the entirety of her power comes from being rich enough to afford the DB and Thieves Guild. Big Deal. I make more money running through a nord tomb in an hour than you do in a year with your meadery. Potentially, you can actually lead both of those organizations, and she still acts like she's the one with the power in that relationship.
    Plus both guilds are directly stated to be on the decline before you arrive, so how much power would Maven have from them anyway? Would make way more sense if she had more organizations serving her.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-01-18 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    And you are never safe, because Maven had her fingers in so many pies that no matter how many people you kill, there's always someone else with deep enough pockets to make your life hell.
    You grossly underestimate how many people the players can kill.


    Way I'd do maven, given the technical limitations of skyrim (IE cities can't be that big or crowded)

    Give her one very terrifying guard.

    Give her enchanted items, including morrowind's old cast on activation items (Behold the belt of scamp summoning!)

    The moment Maven realises she's under attack, eight cloaked spies appear/A dremora is summoned/she casts paralysis and everyone minces you/she teleports.

    But for coolness sake, she can only use these abilities every X amount of time, so you can give it a second go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    You grossly underestimate how many people the players can kill.
    Nah, I just think that if Bethesda really wanted to make a hostile, almost unfair environment, they definitely could. A city presents a unique kind of battleground. Archers on the roofs with paralyzing arrows, invisible rogues stabbing you in the back and poisonning you, armored juggernauts bursting from the nearest door. Add a few mages with spells specialized in countering your current strategy/gear (frost mages if you play melee to drain your stamina, shock if you play mage yourself to drain your magicka and fire if you play archer/stealth to make you die faster). The game generally needs to be fair in its main quests so that anyone can beat the game itself, but doing something like attacking the crime lord of crime lords should be as close to a death sentence as you can get because... Well, you asked for it.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-01-18 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Nah, I just think that if Bethesda really wanted to make a hostile, almost unfair environment, they definitely could. A city presents a unique kind of battleground. Archers on the roofs with paralyzing arrows, invisible rogues stabbing you in the back and poisonning you, armored juggernauts bursting from the nearest door. Add a few mages with spells specialized in countering your current strategy/gear (frost mages if you play melee to drain your stamina, shock if you play mage yourself to drain your magicka and fire if you play archer/stealth to make you die faster). The game generally needs to be fair in its main quests so that anyone can beat the game itself, but doing something like attacking the crime lord of crime lords should be as close to a death sentence as you can get because... Well, you asked for it.
    That kind of goes against the fundamental premise that all the crime guilds are suffering right now. Yeah, they could do it, but that would require the crime guilds to have more control over the city than the occupying armies. Plus, again, Dragonborn. You are the single most powerful mortal in all of Tamriel, capable of bringing about untold amounts of power and destruction if you so desire. Past a certain point there is a disparity of force for which no amount of planning and preparation can counter, and a hypothetical Maven vs Dragonborn fight hits it.

    And its not like she has grounds to complain for people wanting her dead. One of her guys literally tells new visitors she's the local crime lord that makes everybody miserable.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That kind of goes against the fundamental premise that all the crime guilds are suffering right now. Yeah, they could do it, but that would require the crime guilds to have more control over the city than the occupying armies. Plus, again, Dragonborn. You are the single most powerful mortal in all of Tamriel, capable of bringing about untold amounts of power and destruction if you so desire. Past a certain point there is a disparity of force for which no amount of planning and preparation can counter, and a hypothetical Maven vs Dragonborn fight hits it.

    And its not like she has grounds to complain for people wanting her dead. One of her guys literally tells new visitors she's the local crime lord that makes everybody miserable.
    Well the thief's guild specifically is suffering because of the theft of the skeleton key. I don't think any other unrelated crime organization would also be in trouble for it. Ignoring game cities being tiny for gameplay reasons, a city the size of Riften should have quantities of small and big organizations all vying for power and influence in the underworld, with Maven sitting at the top of the pyramid.

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well the thief's guild specifically is suffering because of the theft of the skeleton key. I don't think any other unrelated crime organization would also be in trouble for it. Ignoring game cities being tiny for gameplay reasons, a city the size of Riften should have quantities of small and big organizations all vying for power and influence in the underworld, with Maven sitting at the top of the pyramid.
    Its implied that the Thieve's Guild squashes such organizations as much as they can. In fact, one quest is specifically you going after just such a rival.

    Perhaps more to the point though, so what? I just killed Maven, I don't care about the small fry groups that go under because of it. They cant murder me, im too strong for that, even the Dark Brotherhood cant pull it off, let alone some thug from the ratway. And the citizens, by and large, are against Maven and just too afraid to do anything about it. They certainly aren't going to go out of their way to help avenge her. The only organization I would be remotely concerned about is the corrupt guards who might be upset, since they could actually annoy me somewhat over it, and even that isn't a sure thing.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its implied that the Thieve's Guild squashes such organizations as much as they can. In fact, one quest is specifically you going after just such a rival.

    Perhaps more to the point though, so what? I just killed Maven, I don't care about the small fry groups that go under because of it. They cant murder me, im too strong for that, even the Dark Brotherhood cant pull it off, let alone some thug from the ratway. And the citizens, by and large, are against Maven and just too afraid to do anything about it. They certainly aren't going to go out of their way to help avenge her. The only organization I would be remotely concerned about is the corrupt guards who might be upset, since they could actually annoy me somewhat over it, and even that isn't a sure thing.
    *Shrug*
    Dragonborn doesn't mean invincible. Being the Nerevarine doesn't make you invincible in Morrowind. Being the Champion of Cyrodiil doesn't make you invincible in Oblivion. Sure, you have the potential to be, but you aren't necessarily.

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