Villainous Competition XXX: One Feat to Rule Them ALL

[jdizzlean]

Quick question, is the OA 3.5 update in dragon 318 allowed as a source?

yes, it's pretty standard across all comps, no need to rock the boat

[daremetoidareyo]

yes, it's pretty standard across all comps, no need to rock the boat

It wasn't itemized in the opening post, so i thought that i would clarify.

[Falontani]

I could not find a way to get my primary build to work without an Otyugh Hole, and even if I DO use it the wording on several abilities is tenuous at best, and outright restricted at worst. So I'm going to go with a build that I've been saving.

[GrayDeath]

Well, thats that. My crazy idea is not workable, as the Prerequ Feat is never gained as a specified Bonus feat, and choosing it via more open onus Feats does not work.

Ah well, was rather mad anyway, back to the boring but workable build it is. ^^

[ben-zayb]

Well, thats that. My crazy idea is not workable, as the Prerequ Feat is never gained as a specified Bonus feat, and choosing it via more open onus Feats does not work.

Ah well, was rather mad anyway, back to the boring but workable build it is. ^^

Aside from class bonus feats, some monsters also get crrtains feats as bonus. Could be an alternative if yours doesn't rely on the char's race.

[Thurbane]

I don't want to create any spoilers or speculation, but I'm very curious to know the feat in question, and see if I could find a source for it as a bonus feat.

[jdizzlean]

It wasn't itemized in the opening post, so i thought that i would clarify.

having recently attempted a build based on that same reasoning, no problem at all :)

Well, thats that. My crazy idea is not workable, as the Prerequ Feat is never gained as a specified Bonus feat, and choosing it via more open onus Feats does not work.

Ah well, was rather mad anyway, back to the boring but workable build it is. ^^

I checked the "list of stuff" and have an option for you, i'll pm you it....

actually, that doesn't work either, sorry bud

[GrayDeath]

Well, for all who are interested (it does not work any way after all) the Feat(s) in Question were:

DELETED. Just to be sure.


Sigh, it wasnt doable anyway, so I thought nothing of it. Sorry.

[PrismCat21]

Quick question, is the OA 3.5 update in dragon 318 allowed as a source?

It wasn't itemized in the opening post, so i thought that i would clarify.

*ahem*

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Well, for all who are interested (it does not work any way after all) the Feat(s) in Question were:
~snip~

Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Might be a good idea to delete your planned build until later on in the comp.

[AvatarVecna]

I was super-excited to put together a "it's just you and me and my GUARDS!" character until I remembered that Leadership is banned. The problem I keep coming to is that most things tend to be either "this small thing you normally couldn't self-stack can be stacked now, which is worse than more standard feat combos", or "this awesome thing can be stacked now, but not that much", or "this can be self-stacked to a ridiculous degree and is quite broken", none of which are...interesting to build.

...still got a couple ideas worth looking into, though.

[jdizzlean]

could you imagine the horror if you could take leadership 5+ times in one build?

[unseenmage]

could you imagine the horror if you could take leadership 5+ times in one build?

So basically a Thrallherd with Leadership chaining other Thrallherds...

[ben-zayb]

could you imagine the horror if you could take leadership 5+ times in one build?

Normally, nothing stops a cohort and/or followers from taking Leadership once qualified, so I believe we're long crossed the exponential ridiculousness of the feat.

[danielxcutter]

...so is Leadership broken because of the abuse potential, or is it broken right out of the gate?

[ben-zayb]

...so is Leadership broken because of the abuse potential, or is it broken right out of the gate?

Yes.

[3SecondCultist]

Hmmm, I have an idea for a build, but it's not exactly interesting. I could make it work, but it would definitely be more of a 'lore' than mechanics thing.

I wonder if this round might be more interesting if instead of having only 1 Feat, we make builds that clearly showcase and revolve around the use of said Feat. There can still be a limit on how many Feats are allowed in total (it can be like 5 or something), but each build has to meaningfully use a single Feat as the core of its function on all levels, including fluff and things.

To me as an optimizer, I could see that being less restrictive but gives us all more room to be creative and make distinct builds. For instance, if I were to make an entire build revolving around Robilar's Gambit and making people hit my monster (which I know has been done before, it's just an example), the entire strategy and story of the entry would need to revolve around the use of that feat. The round's Judge(s) would be able to mark Elegance and Power for how much / how well the Feat is being used.

[AvatarVecna]

...so is Leadership broken because of the abuse potential, or is it broken right out of the gate?

Leadership is broken as a feat because there's basically no realistic way to use it that isn't a gigantic advantage that outweighs most every other feat. The normal way to use it is to just ignore that you have followers and only care about the cohort; even if the cohort is commoner whose only purpose is to be a meat shield for other party members so they don't have to take damage, that commoner is adding at least {your ECL -2}d4 HP. Compare this to feats like Improved Toughness, which increase the group's total HP pool by {your ECL}, and you realize that even at the lowest level you could take Leadership, you're comparing "+4d4 HP" to "+6 HP", which isn't a contest. And that's the absolute dumbest way to use your cohort; if your cohort is, say, a more seasoned bodyguard with a decent Con score, not only are they adding {your ECL -2} * {1d10+2} HP, they're also increasing the group's DPR by a not-insignificant amount, and adding a solid frontliner so the rogue has a flanking buddy more frequently. And Fighter is still an awful way to use your cohort, but at least it's contributing to the combat now.

Like, let's say your 20th level character has Leadership, but your cohort and followers only have NPC classes, their builds are focused around being good mundane craftsmen, and they spend their days just making stuff and selling it to make your "company" a profit.

Spoiler: The Company

Show

All members have the following feats.

Feats:

• HD 1: Skill Focus (Craft: Weaponsmithing)
• GS 1: Mercantile Background
• Human: Apprentice (Craftsman)

Feats past 1st lvl are not focused on crafting.

Now, onto the members.

Spoiler: (1) Cohort lvl 18

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 10/Exemplar 8

Stats (lvl 1): 7/6/8/18/13/11
Stats (lvl 18, no items): 7/6/8/22/13/11
Stats (lvl 18, items): 7/6/8/28/13/11

Items (126100/130000):

• Headband Of Intellect +6 (36000)
• Necklace Of Ultimate Craftsmanship +30 (90000)
• Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+59):

• +21 Ranks
• +9 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +30 Necklace
• -8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (2) Follower lvl 6

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 6

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+28):

• +9 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (2) Follower lvl 5

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 5

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+27):

• +8 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (4) Follower lvl 4

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Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 4

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+26):

• +7 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (7) Follower lvl 3

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 3

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+25):

• +6 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (13) Follower lvl 2

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 2

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+24):

• +5 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Spoiler: (135) Follower lvl 1

Show

Venerable Human
Generic Spellcaster 1

Stats: 7/6/8/18/13/11

Items: Masterwork "Craft: Weaponsmithing" Tool (100)

Skill Bonus (+23):

• +4 ranks
• +4 Int Mod
• +3 Skill Focus
• +2 Mercantile Background
• +2 Masterwork Tool
• +8 Lend Talent

Alright, so whenever one of these guys starts working on a weapon, they spend 90% of 1/3 of the base price on materials (so 30% of the price). The level 1s do Accelerated Crafting work on simple melee/thrown weapons, the level 2-4s will do Accelerated Crafting work on martial melee/thrown weapons and crossbows, and the level 5-6s will do Accelerated Crafting work on exotic melee/thrown weapons. The cohort, meanwhile, is doing Quadruply-Accelerated Crafting on exotic melee/thrown weapons. All of these guys beat/match the DC on a nat 1, so they'll never fail, so it's just a question of their average progress made. Here is the progress made by a person of that level:

(135) Lvl 1: 737 sp/week
(13) Lvl 2: 862.5 sp/week
(7) Lvl 3: 887.5 sp/week
(4) Lvl 4: 912.5 sp/week
(2) Lvl 5: 1050 sp/week
(2) Lvl 6: 1078 sp/week
(1) Lvl 18: 4031 sp/week

Now, this 128857 sp/week is the worth of the total product produced, but we only make 70% of that as profit because of having to pay for base materials. So we knock that down to 90199.9 sp profit per week (9019.99 gp/week). Now, if we put these 164 people into Good Inns with Good Meals every day, that reduces the per-week profit by 2870 gp...leaving you with a well-fed, well-rested following that's still making you 6149.99 gp profit per week.

This is an objectively simple and dumb way to use your followers and cohort, and it still makes you 878.57 gp per day after all expenses.

EDIT: Hell, at just level 6, assuming Cha 14 and +8 misc bonuses to Leadership score from the feat, you're looking at (1) lvl 4 cohort, (1) lvl 3 follower, (2) lvl 2 followers, and (25) lvl 1 followers. Using the same builds (adjusted for missing the Lend Talent bonus, and using Magecraft instead), you'd be looking at the lvl 1s making exotic melee/thrown and the rest making Accelerated simple melee/thrown. That's total worth of 1656.3 gp/week (1159.41 gp/week after base materials, or 651.91 gp/week after good room and food). If there was a feat you could take at 6th level that just read "every single day for the rest of your life, you receive a check for 93.13 gp, and this will increase every time you level up", that feat would be ludicrous. And that's just a super-dumb way of using Leadership.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is the prohibition from Feats that can only be taken at first level lifted?

[PrismCat21]

Is the prohibition from Feats that can only be taken at first level lifted?

What prohibition? I don't recall seeing anything prohibiting those Feats. Where was it at?

[AvatarVecna]

What prohibition? I don't recall seeing anything prohibiting those Feats. Where was it at?

I think what they mean is "this feat can normally only be taken at 1st level" is a thing that shows up now and again in feat descriptions, and they're asking if that is waived for this contest as part of the "you can stack this feat even if you normally couldn't" rules change.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think what they mean is "this feat can normally only be taken at 1st level" is a thing that shows up now and again in feat descriptions, and they're asking if that is waived for this contest as part of the "you can stack this feat even if you normally couldn't" rules change.

Thank you for translating. You're right, that is what I was inquiring about

[PrismCat21]

I think what they mean is "this feat can normally only be taken at 1st level" is a thing that shows up now and again in feat descriptions, and they're asking if that is waived for this contest as part of the "you can stack this feat even if you normally couldn't" rules change.

That's what I figured. I wanted the question to be clear.
Saying there was a prohibition makes it sound like a contest rule, when it's only a simple prerequisite for a feat.

[jdizzlean]

Is the prohibition from Feats that can only be taken at first level lifted?

sure, why not

[Thurbane]

Next Monday is a public holiday here: any chance for an extension to 28th?

[jdizzlean]

Next Monday is a public holiday here: any chance for an extension to 28th?

sure, same bat time

[jdizzlean]

how's everyone doing, 5 days left now, only a single entry submitted

[Thurbane]

how's everyone doing, 5 days left now, only a single entry submitted

I'm about 80% done, hoping to use the long weekend to finish up my entry...

[GrayDeath]

I'm about 80% done, hoping to use the long weekend to finish up my entry...

Around the same.

[Mike Miller]

I have a well fleshed out idea. I am getting it on paper now. The hard part will be finding time to put it on my computer. Hopefully I will make the deadline...

[ben-zayb]

I just scrapped a ridiculous idea because, upon reading the specific rules more closely, the gimmick doesn't work the way I thought it would. I'd post it after the reveal.