OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

[Caerulea]

Bloodfeast is married to his work.

And sleep. He sleeps a lot too.

[KorvinStarmast]

And sleep. He sleeps a lot too.

Sleeper, Awake crusty eyes may open now ...

[Sloanzilla]

I'm still a little curious about what happened between the last panel where we had everyone and this one. I guess it was just a matter of Hilgya and ultimately Elan healing everyone up and the one remaining vampire running away.

Given the issues of the two people still up (Belkar and H) - it did seem like there was a chance of conflict.

[Jasdoif]

Surely metaphors can stand not to be complete nonsense, though?

Not only can they, most do.

I'm not sure most metaphors are similes.

[Caerulea]

I'm not sure most metaphors are similes.

Metaphors are as similes in this regard.

[Cat In Shadow]

Oh, what's wrong Belkar? Are you feeling something? Maybe it's... character development? :)

I suppose they're heading back to the dwarves, I hope they can provide some weapon and armor for Durkon, he really needs it.

And this conversation reminded me of the Inheritance Cycle where the way to defeat he bad guy was to make him feel bad about everything he'd done :)

I'm still a little curious about what happened between the last panel where we had everyone and this one. I guess it was just a matter of Hilgya and ultimately Elan healing everyone up and the one remaining vampire running away.

Given the issues of the two people still up (Belkar and H) - it did seem like there was a chance of conflict.

Probably nothing really important happened, Hilgya got plenty of spell slots to heal everyone at least partially, but I hope they managed to kill the last vampire.

[Obscuraphile]

Probably nothing really important happened, Hilgya got plenty of spell slots to heal everyone at least partially, but I hope they managed to kill the last vampire.

But Hilgya would have to prepare all of those heal spells instead of combat spells, where Durkon could turn combat spells into heals. It's unlikely she would have a lot of healing if she was planning on watching the world burn...

[anonynos]

Also, corpse-robbing. I think he'd take issue with that.

These /are/ adventurers we are talking about... corpse robbing is kind of their thing. Spoils of combat and all that.

[Snails]

What Durkon says isn't false, but ultimately the test and core of being Good is doing Good even if it doesn't feel good- meaning it entails loss, sacrifice, hardship, etc.

Which is why this is an important tiny step in specific direction for Belkar, which is so very important because it opens up the possibility of many more steps in that direction.

Belkar was never going to end up anywheres near Good based on the empathy lessons from his cat. Given sufficient years CN, perhaps.

But it is cool to imagine that Belkar has found a way to wrap his mind around how to become Good. Sure, it would probably take 20+ years of hanging around the likes of Roy and Durkon or similar to get there. But if he had the time, you could imagine him Robin Hooding around on his own 20 years from now. If he had the time.

And this is an interesting contrast with Miko. Miko could potentially be redeemed, as a theoretical proposition. But Soon recognized certain keys pieces were simply missing in her character. They might grow in her by happenstance. But she had no path she knew how to find on her own. She was lost in a profound way.

Belkar here sees the path, and sees some value in the path, enough that he might be willing to do real work to get somewhere.

[Jasdoif]

But Hilgya would have to prepare all of those heal spells instead of combat spells

Doubtful. I would naturally expect that Hilgya, like every cleric who turns (rather than rebukes) undead, can spontaneously cast cure spells.

[eilandesq]

That would put Elan and Haley at the bottom, making Belkar third at minumum, so as other posters have noted we have to assume that he's assuming availability in this ranking.

Roy and V. are also in relationships, as far as we know Durkon knows (Roy is still in a long distance relationship with Celia, and V. hasn't been talking about the state of their marriage to anyone but Blackwing as far as we've seen). Meaning that as far as the Order goes and if "being in a current relationship" would put them below anyone who isn't in one, Belkar would be *first* on the list. So logically Durkon is assuming "everyone in the Order is single for the purposes of this argument."

[Cat In Shadow]

But Hilgya would have to prepare all of those heal spells instead of combat spells, where Durkon could turn combat spells into heals. It's unlikely she would have a lot of healing if she was planning on watching the world burn...

Oh, by 3.5 rules you have to prepare each spell n times, I forgot, too used to 5e :) Then she healed only a bit hp, Elan and potions did the rest?

But remember when in the first book she had as much Cure light wounds spells as Durkon when they kept healing each other?

[Obscuraphile]

Doubtful. I would naturally expect that Hilgya, like every cleric who turns (rather than rebukes) undead, can spontaneously cast cure spells.

Well she can command fire elementals so I'm pretty sure that means she rebukes undead...? Plus she's evil and so is Loki so there's that.

Oh, by 3.5 rules you have to prepare each spell n times, I forgot, too used to 5e :) Then she healed only a bit hp, Elan and potions did the rest?

But remember when in the first book she had as much Cure light wounds spells as Durkon when they kept healing each other?

Well she was traveling with a party then, and I believe would have been the only source of healing, so it makes sense for her to have extra on hand then.

As for who/what did the healing this time around... *shrug*

[Seward]

If Loki is CN, then yes, it's possible she spont heals, but only if she's also CN

If Loki is CE she can't spont cures, regardless of her alignment and must rebuke undead

Same goes for turning undead (and for a CN cleric, the choice of turning vs rebuking also decides the cure vs inflict)

" A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells. "


This by the way is the primary argument for both Loki and H being CN, not CE. However since Loki hates undead in this universe, he could possibly be CE with an exception to the normal turning rules. Then H can also be evil or CN (and thousands of pages argue about this, please please lets not do this again)

Absent any text in comic about a rules specific exception to Loki allowing healing even though he's evil, I personally think the most likely explanation is that both Loki and Hilgya are CN, and that yes, she can heal because we saw her turn undead.

But if you think she or Loki are CE, then default assumption is she does spontaneous inflict, not cure, since we have no evidence of a second exception for Loki on the healing rules. Lower level spells are mostly worthless in combat anyway, so evil clerics often have a fair bit of healing. Or hell, just a wand of cure light wounds or three to go with her wand of protection from law. In pretty much every D&D campaign that allowed access to purchased magic items I've played, all between-combat healing was covered with wands of CLW unless the whole party was beat up and somebody had a mass-healing ability (as Elan's spells or in Pathfinder, channeled healing)

IIRC, we've seen her both turn undead and rebuke fire elementals. The elementals are a domain ability that is not tied to alignment the way undead turning is.

[SSGW Priest]

Wait, wait, wait a moment. just APOLOGIZED for something. The world has turned upside down.

[Ironsmith]

These /are/ adventurers we are talking about... corpse robbing is kind of their thing. Spoils of combat and all that.

You'd think so, but this particular group of adventurers hasn't really done much of that. Plus, it's probably easier to rationalize picking up a weapon off the guy you just killed than it is to take a fallen comrade's gear.

[2D8HP]

Sleeper, Awake crusty eyes may open now ...

Oh my god!

MY SECOND DM HAD A GUADALCANAL DIARY ALBUM!

He'd play them along with Devo, Gang of Four, Oingo-Boingo and Venom, and I remember when "Watusi Rodeo" was played on the radio!

Takes me back...

[Seward]

You'd think so, but this particular group of adventurers hasn't really done much of that. Plus, it's probably easier to rationalize picking up a weapon off the guy you just killed than it is to take a fallen comrade's gear.

In Dungeon Crawling fools they routinely looted kills. In all the overland adventures since then they didn't fight a lot of foes with gear, so mostly got stuff as rewards or purchased them. (when enemies had cool gear, like Belkar's new dagger, it got airtime. Note also that Belkar talks about tossing +1 rings in the trash, which implies they found a lot of kind of crappy stuff along the way that they just sold offcamera, as is typical with most DD parties)

My take is Thor pointed him toward some level-appropriate gear nearby. I agree with another poster that armor wouldn't fit - dwarves like heavy armor and only magical armor resizes at all to fit (and not in all campaigns).

[Obscuraphile]

IIRC, we've seen her both turn undead and rebuke fire elementals. The elementals are a domain ability that is not tied to alignment the way undead turning is.

Hmm, I'd forgotten that we kinda saw her turn undead. But with it off screen like that I'm not entirely sold... maybe Kudzu did it

Also I just realized I've been doing elemental domains wrong all my life...

[Rogar Demonblud]

The comic explicitly stated that Loki only views undead as icky things, so all his clerics turn undead. Alignment is not a factor.

[Cat In Shadow]

Wait, wait, wait a moment. just APOLOGIZED for something. The world has turned upside down.

I think the world is okay, Belkar already shocked everyone when using his ranger abilities to tame a dinosaur, and world's still standing :) And hopefully it stays so, when the dwarves finally vote for not destroying it.

[ericgrau]

I'm confused what the purpose/gag was with the facepalm.

[Seward]

The comic explicitly stated that Loki only views undead as icky things, so all his clerics turn undead. Alignment is not a factor.

Right but that only informs whether or not Hilgya can heal if Loki is CN and she is CN. Otherwise we're talking about a separate spont healing exception for an evil god and/or evil cleric, which isn't in the comic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Turning/Rebuking and Cure/Cause are hard coded linked. They always work in set pairs, because you're either accessing the Positive Energy Plane or the Negative Energy Plane.

[Verappo]

And this is an interesting contrast with Miko. Miko could potentially be redeemed, as a theoretical proposition. But Soon recognized certain keys pieces were simply missing in her character. They might grow in her by happenstance. But she had no path she knew how to find on her own. She was lost in a profound way.

And part of that I bet is that she never had companions other than a horse. It speaks to this comic's running theme of teamwork and cooperation that only the people with a functional support system would have a chance to thrive.

Miko was alone, the member of order of the scribble were estranged from each other, and the gods' fighting created a literal tear in reality. But our order of the stick are the main characters because of their connection to each other (or budding connection in Belkar's case).

[2D8HP]

These /are/ adventurers we are talking about... corpse robbing is kind of their thing. Spoils of combat and all that.

In Dungeon Crawling fools they routinely looted kills....

Yep, Haley was very good at that (it's often seemed to me that early Haley and Belkar acted the most like D&D PC's).

[Kish]

Well she can command fire elementals so I'm pretty sure that means she rebukes undead...?

She turns undead. That means she turns undead.

Even if she hadn't Turned (not Rebuked) Undead in the first strip of her appearance in this book, this would be wrong. Commanding fire elementals is disconnected from whether you channel positive or negative energy; it's all about having the Fire domain.

[Martok]

Durkon and Belkar just had a conversation with actual depth? And Belkar apologized to him? My day was just made.

[Obscuraphile]

Commanding fire elementals is disconnected from whether you channel positive or negative energy; it's all about having the Fire domain.

Somehow I had always read the elemental domains as alignment dependent. That a good character got the turn part and an evil character got the command part. I see that is not the case... Excuse me while I go make half a dozen clerics.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wouldn't you only need four? Or five, if you're using Eastern instead of Western elements?