OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

[Sloanzilla]

I'm still at a bit of a lose for how this off-hand joke somehow lead to a serious discussion on Durkon's sexuality.

Because all six members of the order are finally back together for the first time in 1000 billion years, so reasons.

[rbetieh]

Because all six members of the order are finally back together for the first time in 1000 billion years, so reasons.

I really only took his ranking as a slight to V (I think he's ranking by goodness and has really soured on her, plus seeing how Belkar was acting towards the vampire probably raised him past V).

[Ruck]

We all…*we all get that we don't know Durkon's sexuality, right? We all get that at least?

Yeah, this is the point I've ben trying to make. We don't know, and it's okay to not know, and it's better to admit we don't know than to use very specious reasoning to draw conclusions.

What is meaningful to you then? We've seen him turned off by male nudity and express discomfort at the idea that he would be attracted to Thor in a sexual manner. At what point does this become a pattern of behavior that you will acknowledge?

I presume at some point that has more evidence than "One very specious example" and "one more plausible but not necessarily definitive example." (I mean, Durkon could be bi and also not want people thinking he wants to have sex with his god.)

[Keltest]

Yeah, this is the point I've ben trying to make. We don't know, and it's okay to not know, and it's better to admit we don't know than to use very specious reasoning to draw conclusions.



I presume at some point that has more evidence than "One very specious example" and "one more plausible but not necessarily definitive example." (I mean, Durkon could be bi and also not want people thinking he wants to have sex with his god.)

Bi people generally don't feel the need to assert their heterosexuality. At least not in private.

[zimmerwald1915]

Bi people generally don't feel the need to assert their heterosexuality. At least not in private.

Oh? Care to back that up?

[Ruck]

Bi people generally don't feel the need to assert their heterosexuality.

[citation needed]

At least not in private.

I was going to ask what's "private" about the preface to Blood Runs in the Family, where he was cited as doing this, but now that I'm reading it again, I actually don't see that in there. So, as an aside, where is that citation from?

[Rrmcklin]

Has anyone actually been saying that Durkon definitely isn't bisexual? I don' think I've actually seen that (though I've sort of been breezing through here), just that his depiction in the comic doesn't really support it.

[B. Dandelion]

[citation needed]



I was going to ask what's "private" about the preface to Blood Runs in the Family, where he was cited as doing this, but now that I'm reading it again, I actually don't see that in there. So, as an aside, where is that citation from?

It's from the Origin prequel. Hurak asks him how much he loves Thor and Durkon replies as indicated. So, not actually private.

[Ruck]

It's from the Origin prequel. Hurak asks him how much he loves Thor and Durkon replies as indicated. So, not actually private.

Thanks. And yeah, that's hardly private at all-- of all the people you might not want to tell about an attraction to your god, "that god's High Priest" has to be high on the list!

[Liquor Box]

Well. Belkar is quite deep in the closet.

I meant settled as to their placing on Durkon's list, not settled in terms of sexuality.

I agree that Belkar is the most likely of the Order (other than Hayley and V) to be bisexual. We saw him kiss V, whose gender and sex Belkar does not know, and the teasing of Roy when he was wearing the girdle indicates at least that he is comfortable contemplating non-traditional sexual scenarios.

I have doubt that he is more interested in females, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has had some experience with men.

Hmmmmmm....how many females would Durkon need to lust after, and how males would he need to turn down in order for you to call him a heterosexual?

One of each would be enough to think he is probably heterosexual in the context of the comic.

Actually, if a character had shown interest in one gender and nobody of the other, even that might be enough. People think of Bandana as a lesbian (rather than bi) because she's indicated an off-screen interest in women, but we have no evidence (unless I'm forgetting something) that she is not interested in men.

For Durkon we have two of each, by no means conclusive, but in my opinion indicative.

Why not? I mean, aside from the unstated implication that characters are heterosexual unless proven otherwise.

Not heterosexual unless proven otherwise. Heterosexual if the only indication we have is of heterosexuality.

Here we have indications (at least three) that Durkon (a character we have seen a lot of) is sexually interested in women (both human and non-human, including humans in the party). We have no indication that he is interested in men (which itself might be sufficient to support a conclusion that he is probably not interested in men. However, in addition we have two instances of him showing distaste at potentially intimate situations with men (one of whom is someone set up to be possibly the most attractive man in the comic. Of course, you can come up with possible explanations (eg, he was just not interested in those particular men), but those alternatives do not seem more likely to me than him being hetero.

I don't think that Durkon needs to like men to rank other men as better marriage material than Belkar, who is, after all, a man.

Heck, right now, there's probably a few men he'd rank as better marriage material than Hilgya.

For what it's worth, I think it was a throwaway joke that Durkon didn't put much thought into. That doesn't mean the Giant didn't put any thought into it. I'm sure he realized that we'd spend days arguing about who it was that Durkon preferred Belkar over. So, mission accomplished.

For the record, my vote is V.

I think most people accept that Durkon might prefer some men to Belkar. But I think people are arguing about his sexuality because that is relevant to whether Hayley automatically takes top spot or not.

I do agree that the Giant must have anticipated us spending days arguing over the order - I suspect he took a bit of sadistic pleasure in it.

If we really have to have this argument, I’d say the strongest piece of evidence in favour of Durkon being straight rather than bi is in his introduction to BRITF, wher he states that he likes loves Thor and follows that by clarifying that that is in “in a strictly heterosexual ‘buddies’ kind of way, not that there’s anything wrong with the alternative”.

Even if you say that’s just evidence that Durkon is not attracted to Thor, rather than not being attracted to any men - it isn’t the kind of clarification that non-straight men generally feel the need to make.

I don't recall that (was it in print versions only?). You are right, that is another indication that Durkon is hetero.

Durkon is not attracted to human males (and I would argue humans in general, discounting that early strip as early comic weirdness contradicting his later characterisation and with Julia as a balancing factor) is an explanation sufficient and simpler in my opinion. He is, in fact, a dwarf. Again, saying, in our world being heterosexual is more likely, does not help much.

I don't think you can simply disregard strips that don't fit your theory. Also, there are two strips where Durkon shows a sexual interest in Hayley - I assume you are thinking of the wardrobe malfunction, but the other is when Hayley is talking about her 'globes' to V and Durkon, Elan and Roy are listening at the wall. Durkon has shown a clear sexual interest in Hayley in those two strips. I don't think the Julia scene contradicts this, as Julia is a teenager and Durkon even references her age when chastising her. In my opinion it is quite clear that Durkon is, at least sometimes, interested in humans.

[Seward]

The default assumption is "we don't know a character's sexuality unless they explicitly say so".

You can learn some things (Durkon will sleep with a female dwarf voluntarily) which rules out the idea that he doesn't have any interest in females, but it doesn't prove anything about his attraction to males. That doesn't mean he's interested in all females either (and certainly not underage females, based on his interactions with Julia).

You can learn other things (Durkon doesn't want to touch naked Elan but ogles partly-naked Haley) which does tell you he's more open to the idea of sex with Haley than Elan, but doesn't necessarily tell you that he's Het-Only(tm). Haley isn't skinny, Elan is, for example. He might just find skinny people repulsive, which would also indicate (if you believe that theory) that Belkar and V aren't very attractive to him either, but perhaps, Roy might be (depending on his opinion of "not skinny because of flesh" vs "not skinny because of muscle").

You can go down a lot of ratholes this way. Also note that sexuality may not influence "marriage material ranking" very much for someone like Durkon. Roy's the fan favorite for #1 marriage choice for a reason, even though there isn't any real evidence of Durkon lusting after his body. I think it's most useful in the "is Haley or Elan a higher choice" question because Haley and Elan are pretty similar otherwise.

Both are Chaotic and pose Durkon some religious problems. Haley fake-took-up following Thor and is generally a person who behaves a lot more like Loki than Thor, and Elan, while he behaves a lot like a thor follower might, created not one but TWO false religions (Banjo and Giggles). Elan follows a profession that Durkon respects (the Sqeaky The Bard memories show him as a bit of an uncle/mentor to Durkon) where Haley's profession is taking stuff that doesn't belong to her from others.

So basically Elan's first if Durkon can get over the false religion stuff because his profession and demeanor will be more compatible with somebody who is a priest of Thor and believes in WWTD. But if Durkon considers the false religion to be roughly as bad as Haley's profession, and perhaps thinks he could influence Haley into following Thor for real and it's a wash between the two of them, then Haley's sexual attraction for him would come into play and tipping the balance toward her.

In my head-canon, Haley and Elan are pretty much equal - I'm not at all sure which is #2 or #3. But I've got Roy at top and V at bottom and the reasons for that don't have a thing to do with sexuality.

[Syncrogti]

I rarely chime in but this is the reason I love this comic and Rich's storytelling so much: Panel 7-9 is so well worded and perfectly sums up my opinion of how cowardly people are who won't admit that they have made a mistake or lied or... and I've learned that good (or rather honest) people DO admit when they've done something wrong, and for that, i respect them immensely. I wish my daughter understood this principle.

There is a very good passage in the first few pages of the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds that rings true about how good can turn evil and how to stop it before it happens in yourself. Better written that some canonical scriptures I use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A horrible thought just occurred to me: what if the secret is the location of an ancient artifact armour of Thor, by the name of Plate Lorica Of Thor? I.e. P.L.O.T. armour?

Grey Wolf

[Ironsmith]

Haley fake-took-up following Thor and is generally a person who behaves a lot more like Loki than Thor, and Elan, while he behaves a lot like a thor follower might, created not one but TWO false religions (Banjo and Giggles).

A large part of the humor with Banjo and Giggles is the implication that they're not actually false religions, and that Elan may have inadvertently created and/or discovered actual gods (which nobody else believes, because of how ridiculous the concept is). Not that it'd influence his position with Durkon much, since he still believes both to be false, but I thoughtit was worth pointing out.

I rarely chime in but this is the reason I love this comic and Rich's storytelling so much: Panel 7-9 is so well worded and perfectly sums up my opinion of how cowardly people are who won't admit that they have made a mistake or lied or... and I've learned that good (or rather honest) people DO admit when they've done something wrong, and for that, i respect them immensely. I wish my daughter understood this principle.

There is a very good passage in the first few pages of the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds that rings true about how good can turn evil and how to stop it before it happens in yourself. Better written that some canonical scriptures I use.

Agreed wholeheartedly. It also serves as a nice call-back to Soon's speech to Miko.

A horrible thought just occurred to me: what if the secret is the location of an ancient artifact armour of Thor, by the name of Plate Lorica Of Thor? I.e. P.L.O.T. armour?

Grey Wolf

Not to be confused with the Fully Invulnerable Armor o' Thor? ("Of/O'" not meriting abbreviation in this one.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Fix It Again, Thor

[Fyraltari]

A horrible thought just occurred to me: what if the secret is the location of an ancient artifact armour of Thor, by the name of Plate Lorica Of Thor? I.e. P.L.O.T. armour?

Grey Wolf

They already have that one, mostly.

[jokem]

Where is it? The crack, I mean.

No comment regarding your interest in my crack in this thread regarding sexuality...

[Ironsmith]

No comment regarding your interest in my crack in this thread regarding sexuality...

Much better.

[Goblin_Priest]

A horrible thought just occurred to me: what if the secret is the location of an ancient artifact armour of Thor, by the name of Plate Lorica Of Thor? I.e. P.L.O.T. armour?

Grey Wolf

The only good thing to come out of the last dozen pages or so.

[Jasdoif]

A horrible thought just occurred to me: what if the secret is the location of an ancient artifact armour of Thor, by the name of Plate Lorica Of Thor? I.e. P.L.O.T. armour?

I have doubts. Because....

Early Roman armor was called lorica—a hard leather cuirass similar to leather armor in D&D. The term expanded to include the three most common kinds of Roman metal armor: lorica segmentata (banded mail), lorica hamata (a chain shirt), and lorica squamata (scale mail).

So, armor called lorica would be either light or substandard; neither of which seems...Thoresque? Thorish?

[Ironsmith]

I have doubts. Because....

So, armor called lorica would be either light or substandard; neither of which seems...Thoresque? Thorish?

A +5 Lorica Of Spell Resistance (19) ain't anybody's idea of substandard, I'm sure.

Though yeah, stylistically, it seems out of character...

[zimmerwald1915]

A +5 Lorica Of Spell Resistance (19) ain't anybody's idea of substandard, I'm sure.

SR 19? Oh, that's precious. I don't even have to roll.

[Ironsmith]

SR 19? Oh, that's precious. I don't even have to roll.

...well, s***.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have doubts. Because....

So, armor called lorica would be either light or substandard; neither of which seems...Thoresque? Thorish?

Err... no idea who you are quoting, but the idea that the lorica segmentata was "light armour" (or "early", for that matter) is rather dubious. The legionaries of Emperor Trajan wore it, and they were heavy infantry, and calling Trajan "Early Roman" is rather strange, unless one counts the Byzantium Empire, which isn't usually the case.

As far as I understand, "lorica" just means "breastplate", so it can be as heavy or as light as the adjective that goes next to it, so in this case, "plate breastplate" would not be light, in any case.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Err... no idea who you are quoting, but the idea that the lorica segmentata was "light armour" (or "early", for that matter) is rather dubious.

Likely because that's addressed by the second sentence; it calls out lorica segmentata as equivalent to banded mail, which is heavy armor (but substandard in my view, as it caps AC below 18 without assistance from magic/shield/abilities/etc.; it's strictly worse than full plate unless the price or weight are cause for concern...although that's true of all the standard heavy armor types).

That said, I do doubt D&D supplements aim for a lot of historical accuracy; the rest of D&D certainly doesn't. (I wouldn't be surprised if there's a 3.5 sourcebook somewhere that supersedes what the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide says about Roman armor equivalencies, but I'm not aware of anything offhand and a brief check didn't turn up anything)

[Seward]

A large part of the humor with Banjo and Giggles is the implication that they're not actually false religions, and that Elan may have inadvertently created and/or discovered actual gods (which nobody else believes, because of how ridiculous the concept is). Not that it'd influence his position with Durkon much, since he still believes both to be false, but I thoughtit was worth pointing out.

Durkon reacted more negatively to those religions than just about anything else we've seen. He seems to find it deeply offensive, whether or not the religions have validity. So I thought that would be a pretty big negative. Without that - I'd say Elan would be #2 easily, in spite of Durkon's attraction to Haley's body.

[Seward]

SR 19? Oh, that's precious. I don't even have to roll.

*laugh*

Seriously, most SR you can get in-game serves only to interfere with others buffing you. The bad guys can either punch through it or have spellcasting so weak you can pretty much ignore it. Items of spell storing are always hideously overpriced for a tiny chance of disrupting an enemy spell.

OTOH, if you're using a "GM gives you random loot" system instead of "wealth by level+magic marts" system (the latter is what 3.5 is balanced against) items that are overpriced with marginal add-ons isn't as much of a problem. Haley's Icy Burst bow is a pretty good example of that. Bows only have a 5% chance to crit. The first 1d6 of frost damage (+5 weapon going to +6) might be worth the cost but going from +6 to +7 is really, really expensive for something that happens only one shot in 20 (haley doesn't have the feats to spare for improved critical, which would make it 1 in 10 shots). This is probably why the GM added "encase in block of ice on crit" to make it better (that's a house rule).

There's also the side issue of getting a x3 crit on a +5 bow will kill a lot of enemies by itself, regardless of what the extra frost damage+ice cube might do. I've always been kind of hostile to any "crit based weapon buff" in most games/mmorpgs/etc because you waste the extra damage in overkill a lot of the time, but the game developers always factor it in to their "Damage over time vs weapon cost" balancing. But some players really enjoy getting the occasional huge hit, so different strokes for different folks.

[Snails]

Seriously, most SR you can get in-game serves only to interfere with others buffing you. The bad guys can either punch through it or have spellcasting so weak you can pretty much ignore it. Items of spell storing are always hideously overpriced for a tiny chance of disrupting an enemy spell.

That is true about items, but the Monk SR is not bad: 10+<Monk level>.

You do not usually go up against spellcasters with a casting level more than <party level>+3, even for the boss fight, because those encounters can too easily become TPKs. ~35% cast of ignoring a spell is something against a BBEG.

But, yes, items that you acquire basically suck for the price. They only make sense as a cute little flavor effect that you happened to get out of random loot.

Of course, that is not just a problem with SR items. The majority of non-little items in the DMG are so expensive relative to the Big Six, that they are worth selling if you can pump the cash into improving the key items. In other words, most items in the DMG could be argues to be 2X or 3X or 4X as expensive as their actual play value, compared to simple and powerful items that you have to rely on and use all the time.

[danielxcutter]

There's also the Spell Resistance spell(Clr 5).

[Peelee]

There's also the Spell Resistance spell(Clr 5).

You just couldn't resist.