Avengers: Infinity War --one theory and one speculation (spoilers)

[JeenLeen]

saw a video here that suggests a solution for why Thanos CAN'T just create more resources.

Anything created or changed by the Gauntlet (E.G. The restored titan, Mantis and Drax falling to pieces, etc) is temporary, and will revert back to it's original state or otherwise disappear given enough time. Anything DESTROYED however, remains destroyed.

I had assumed that was a limitation until you got all the Stones and that, once you have all the Stones, you can do perma-changes.
But that was simply an assumption I made while watching the movie, since it didn't make sense to me that Thanos would have temporarily destroyed Mantis and Drax. (I assumed the restored Titan was simply an illusion, much like... whatever the Collector dude's place was. But it could have been real yet temporary.)

Yes. There's a mention about how the Dark Dimension doesn't really have a sense of time (or exists outside of our perception of time; I forget the exact terminology the movie used), but that's what allows Strange to create a time loop. Because the Dark Dimension is timeless, you don't end up with the reality-shattering effects that exploiting the Time Stone would normally cause, and Dormammu is trapped by something he can't really fight back against unless Strange breaks the time loop.

If Strange tried the time loop effect normally, it might work for a bit, but he runs the risk of causing reality to implode. Messing with the book in Doctor Strange almost causes serious damage to reality, and a time loop is a more egregious use of the Time Stone's power.

It's probably why he stuck to using the Time Stone to find a possible victory condition, instead of explicitly using it against Thanos in a time loop (or going back and messing with his past).

That makes a lot of sense.
And, even if it didn't, I'd accept the "well, Strange saw the right thing to do, and it appears NOT to be time looping".

[Clertar]

Time looping, as said, worked against Dormammu because Strange found a way to think outside of the box and apply time to a time-less dimension. But the time stone was already not enough to stop Kaecilius in Hong Kong(?), and Kaelicus is a joke compared to Thanos.

It's too bad we don't get to see discarted possible outcomes, but that would have just made the movie worse to lampshade some possible nitpicking, which I don't think would justify it. Although it couldbe fun to see several characters speculate about it Sherlock-like---with the jumping off the building explanations

[Draconi Redfir]

Are people teleported by the teleport stone teleported back after a while?

i'd argue that that's classified as movement, the same as picking up a rock and physically placing it somewhere else. Not creation, making a rock appear out of nowhere, or change, turning the rock into a pig.

(I assumed the restored Titan was simply an illusion, much like... whatever the Collector dude's place was. But it could have been real yet temporary.)

same to be honest, they do look a lot like illusions, yet at the same time, they're made wit the REALITY stone soo.... *shrug*

[Tyndmyr]

People say that you can kill an enemy with a portal because Strange does that in the movie. He kills one of Thanos' henchmen that way.

Pedantically, I believe he merely lops off an arm. This is pretty powerful, but requires an enemy to be willing to shove an appendage through the portal at exactly the right time. Thanos is presumably uncooperative in this regard.

I likewise view the permanence/limitations exhibited earlier as a result of not having all the stones yet. Some of the stones are undeniably potent by themselves, but they're definitely going for a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts, here. It makes sense that individual stones have limited power, and limiting the reality stone's area to "vaguely close to user" is reasonable. Once no longer nearby/using the stone, reality reverts. It kind of is illusory by itself, though a very tangible illusion.

As for the wisdom of his plan, well...it's not an A+ plan. But the writers needed a way to have him kill half of all life via snap, so that's the motivation they went with. It's probably better than the original series, which was, honestly, super wordy. Lots and lots of thanos gloating, but fairly few actual changes in circumstance. I do prefer the more action centric approach taken in Infinity Wars. So, I'm not put out that Thanos's plan is imperfect. The guy, after all, is known as the mad titan. His plan can be a bit short of perfect sanity. The guy's homeworld clearly broke him in some way, and everything ties back to that for him. He's still fighting an utterly doomed fight.

[Douglas]

Can you explain the Thor bit a little more? I think Thor gets there like... a second before Thanos. And fails to do anything. He doesn't stop Thanos from gaining all the stones or from doing the Snap, so what would be the purpose in stalling for Thor to get to Earth?

There is a brief period of time where Thor fights practically unopposed, outclassing every enemy combatant on the field, and temporarily turns the tide of the battle. This likely saved quite a few lives on the heroes/Wakandan side, and would have gone very differently if Thor had immediately faced Thanos. Some of the people saved might be important for the eventual win.

Also, Thor dealt a major wound to Thanos right before the Snap, which could matter when they face him again later in Endgame's climax, or possibly in some character development plot element. If Thanos had arrived earlier, he likely would have already done the Snap, and possibly even left the planet, before Thor could find and attack him, preventing that wound from happening.

[Androgeus]

I wonder if Strange's plan also required Scott Lang to get stuck in the Quantum Realm due to the snap

[Clertar]

I wonder if Strange's plan also required Scott Lang to get stuck in the Quantum Realm due to the snap

Maybe it's all about when exactly the snap happened: too early and Scott is not in the Quantum Realm. Too late and they have already taken him out. Or maybe some minutes later or sooner Nick Fury wouldn't have been able to get to his Captain Marvel pager quickly enough.

[Rodin]

My initial read on it when I saw the movie was that Strange needed two things:

1) For the Snap to happen, as getting Thanos to complete his plan and see the consequences will ultimately be necessary to stop him.

2) For everybody else to not know that this was the plan. The whole plan to stop Thanos from doing the Snap is doomed to failure and Strange knows this. However, he can't just hand over the Time Stone when Thanos shows up, because that would be painfully obvious that Something Is Up. So, Strange plays out the glorious last stand, so that both Tony and Thanos are fooled. Handing over the Time Stone to save Stark's life is a good pretext - it's nice and heroic.

The other option I see is that Strange was stalling for time - for Shuri to do her modifications to the Mind Stone. We don't know exactly what she did or how far along she got, but there was an awful lot of set up there for something that wound up not mattering. I'm hopeful that it will matter in the next movie, along with Vision's comments about how he and the Mind Stone are affecting each other.

[Eldan]

I mean, this would be my preferred ending. That the Avengers don't just show up again, with a better plan this time, and beat Thanos up, then somehow undo everything he did. I'd love if they actually convinced him to undo what he did himself, by showing him that it is wrong*. But I'm honestly doubtful that Marvel will end this movie without a big action finale. Hopefully, we'll at least get a bit of both.

*One of the reasons why I think Doctor Strange is one of the best marvel movies. Strange comes up with a plan and that plan isn't just "Let's beat him up, but better this time".

[Leewei]

I wonder if Strange's plan also required Scott Lang to get stuck in the Quantum Realm due to the snap

Spoiler

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Scott is in the Endgame trailer in archived S.H.I.E.L.D. security footage. The Quantum Realm is almost certainly one of the realms shown in the Doctor Strange movie. The stinger where the Pyms die has a brief mention of time vortexes in that realm. It is not clear if Scott's getting stuck was part of Strange's plan. Him getting out in the past certainly is.

[Reddish Mage]

I mean, this would be my preferred ending. That the Avengers don't just show up again, with a better plan this time, and beat Thanos up, then somehow undo everything he did. I'd love if they actually convinced him to undo what he did himself, by showing him that it is wrong*. But I'm honestly doubtful that Marvel will end this movie without a big action finale. Hopefully, we'll at least get a bit of both.

*One of the reasons why I think Doctor Strange is one of the best marvel movies. Strange comes up with a plan and that plan isn't just "Let's beat him up, but better this time".

Thanos learns the value of life and the folly of playing god?

I don’t see it. We see plenty that he DOES value life (at least sometimes) and that he simply sees his plan as a way to bring happiness to the universe.

If what they show that the plan just doesn’t work that’s pretty boring.

A change of heart ending is hard to pull off too. The Avengers are going to reform, go through elaborate action scenes and...persuade Thanos to do the unsnap? How? Why?

Even if Thanos wants to...he can’t. The glove is destroyed by the snap but if he could help....

Give me something that doesn’t amount to poking holes in the tissue thin rationale for killing half of all life at random.

[JeenLeen]

I wonder if Strange's plan also required Scott Lang to get stuck in the Quantum Realm due to the snap

Could someone explain this reference?
I reckon it's from one of the movies that I haven't seen (Ant-Man?).

[Dr.Samurai]

It's the post-credit scene of Ant-man and the Wasp (the sequel to Antman). Spoilers below:

Spoiler

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Scott Lang goes into the Quantum Realm to collect data, and when it is time to return, it's revealed that Hank and the Wasp have been killed by the Snap, and it's implied that Scott has no way to return to the Macro-world. But basically, some people think that the reason Scott avoided the Snap was because he was in the Quantum realm.

[Mightymosy]

I had assumed that was a limitation until you got all the Stones and that, once you have all the Stones, you can do perma-changes.
But that was simply an assumption I made while watching the movie, since it didn't make sense to me that Thanos would have temporarily destroyed Mantis and Drax. (I assumed the restored Titan was simply an illusion, much like... whatever the Collector dude's place was. But it could have been real yet temporary.)



That makes a lot of sense.
And, even if it didn't, I'd accept the "well, Strange saw the right thing to do, and it appears NOT to be time looping".

Well, if you can only make perma-changes with all 6 (which I HIGHLY doubt), how about making constructive changes once you have all six?
Infinite room + infinite food.
Done.
Maybe I am understanding the word "infinity" wrong, though

[Androgeus]

Well, if you can only make perma-changes with all 6 (which I HIGHLY doubt), how about making constructive changes once you have all six?
Infinite room + infinite food.
Done.
Maybe I am understanding the word "infinity" wrong, though

Honestly I think a lot of discussions about what Thanos should have done misses out a large chunk of his motivation. He’s not doing it to just “save the universe” but to also prove that he was right and his plan would have saved Titan if only people had listened to him.

[LibraryOgre]

The reason they were unable to defeat Thanos is simply that they failed to include Squirrel Girl.

[Kitten Champion]

Honestly I think a lot of discussions about what Thanos should have done misses out a large chunk of his motivation. He’s not doing it to just “save the universe” but to also prove that he was right and his plan would have saved Titan if only people had listened to him.

Yes. and that, once everyone sees this accomplished, they will come to see the wisdom of his position and act accordingly from now on.

He's also - to paraphrase Josh Brolin's analysis of his character - too callous to think of more ideal solutions.

[Erloas]

A change of heart ending is hard to pull off too. The Avengers are going to reform, go through elaborate action scenes and...persuade Thanos to do the unsnap? How? Why?

Even if Thanos wants to...he can’t. The glove is destroyed by the snap but if he could help....

I don't remember any indication of the glove being destroyed. He wasn't wearing it when he was in his little house on whatever random planet, but I think that was more "the job is done I can sit back and watch my amazing new universe." There was no indication that it was like a "single big thing" sort of power to the gauntlet. Just that when he did what he set out to do there wasn't any reason to keep doing gauntlet magic.

[Starwulf]

I didn't get that impression. What, of consequence, happened during that fight that would make it a necessity in Thanos' defeat? No one died. I don't think anything valuable was learned that necessitated that particular strategy.

I think the heroes came up with a very good plan; distract and disable Thanos enough to get Mantis on him, lull him to sleep, remove the gauntlet.

It's actually a really good plan given the circumstances, and definitely a workable path to victory. It doesn't work because that plan introduces new information by way of the pain Mantis is feeling from Thanos; Gamora is dead. This in turn sets Quill into a rage that foils the whole thing.

But was this strategy a necessary part of the one victory Strange saw? I don't think so. I mean... maybe. But why?

Quill is still responsible for what he did. I'd wager that even if they removed the gauntlet, it would have been difficult to keep Thanos from regaining it from them. Strange saw *the only* way to defeat Thanos, and it likely goes beyond "remove the gauntlet from his hand and play keep-away".

Yes. Mostly that it's so simplistic. It's random, so you're definitely killing more people than you think. Also, it would only reset the population for it to grow back to "Infinity Gauntlet needed" numbers. To quote Tony Stark:

I don't agree with the idea that taking the gauntlet wouldn't have ended it. The gauntlet has 4 of the 6 gems at that point, including the reality gem. If they had gotten it off(which they were about to), all they had to do was get some distance and then "snap" and hey look, Thanos is now a puddle of mud. Game over. I'm not sure I can really be convinced that Thanos would have somehow came back and won once they had the gauntlet, not with 4/6 gems(and realistically, at that point it would have technically been 5/6 since Strange had the time gem).

Strange could have ported them all to the other damn side of the planet, set-up perimeter guards in the form of Quill and Drax and Mantis, while Strange, Stark and Peter figure out how to use the gauntlet effectively enough to render Thanos helpless. If he(thanos) started getting close to them before they could, they just port to the other side of the planet and continue on. Between those three I can't imagine it would take too terribly long to figure it out, especially since Strange already knows how to use one stone.

IMO, Strange is as much at fault as Quill is for not telling Quill that once Mantis was up on Thanos that he needed to be as far from the fight as possible.

I don't remember any indication of the glove being destroyed. He wasn't wearing it when he was in his little house on whatever random planet, but I think that was more "the job is done I can sit back and watch my amazing new universe." There was no indication that it was like a "single big thing" sort of power to the gauntlet. Just that when he did what he set out to do there wasn't any reason to keep doing gauntlet magic.

Go back and watch the scene of him porting way after the snap. Before he goes through the camera pans to the gauntlet, and it looks totally demolished. I have to imagine it couldn't handle any serious heavy duty use of the gems anymore, so either Thanos figures out how to use the reality gem without the gauntlet and uses it to repair said gauntlet, or he goes back and forces the dwarf to make another.

[Clertar]

Well, if you can only make perma-changes with all 6 (which I HIGHLY doubt), how about making constructive changes once you have all six?
Infinite room + infinite food.
Done.
Maybe I am understanding the word "infinity" wrong, though

It was discussed in another threat, but I assume that Thanos would see that as just pushing the problem one stage further on. Let's think of it in terms of Earth: what would solve the environmental crises better: (a) being half the population that we are now, or (b) having twice as many oil deposits and a whole other Americas to colonize and plunder? There's a reason degrowth is a thing, after all.

But also, Thanos had been doing just that for decades if not centuries. That's what he was doing in Gamora's planet. That's why he gained an epithet like The Destroyer of Worlds. With the Infinity Gauntlet he can do it magically, instead of having to do it by hand. He didn't just come up with the idea to kill half of life within the frame of the film, or even the Marvel universe... that was his whole thing, that's what made him rise to be this galactic dictator, that was his only drive since his home planet was destroyed. Thanos is not an optimality algorithm, he's an egotistical broken person driven to genocide---for the wrong reasons? sure, but there are only wrong reasons for genocide.

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't agree with the idea that taking the gauntlet wouldn't have ended it. The gauntlet has 4 of the 6 gems at that point, including the reality gem. If they had gotten it off(which they were about to), all they had to do was get some distance and then "snap" and hey look, Thanos is now a puddle of mud. Game over. I'm not sure I can really be convinced that Thanos would have somehow came back and won once they had the gauntlet, not with 4/6 gems(and realistically, at that point it would have technically been 5/6 since Strange had the time gem).

Strange could have ported them all to the other damn side of the planet, set-up perimeter guards in the form of Quill and Drax and Mantis, while Strange, Stark and Peter figure out how to use the gauntlet effectively enough to render Thanos helpless. If he(thanos) started getting close to them before they could, they just port to the other side of the planet and continue on. Between those three I can't imagine it would take too terribly long to figure it out, especially since Strange already knows how to use one stone.

This could all be true. But, we don't know how powerful Thanos is without the stones. Presumably pretty powerful. Further, I'm not sure that just anyone can use the stones like that. I thought there was a line (maybe just propaganda) that Thanos is the only one strong enough to use more than one stone together. And I thought that you needed special conditions as a mortal to even handle the stones (Quill can because he's part celestial, and also he had the Guardians and the power of... camaraderie? Strange knows how to use the Time Stone, but he learned specific spells out of a book to do so, and has the amulet that houses it.

Yes, the Gauntlets are holding the four stones, but I don't know if the heroes can use them that way. Remember, Strange sends the Cloak of Levitation to "stop [Thanos] from closing his hand". This implies that Thanos needs to gesture with the gauntlet to use the power of the stones (like a Snap). So unless someone can fit that massive gauntlet on their hand, I don't think the heroes could have used it against Thanos. And that leaves the question of how strong he is to fight them and get it back.

Maybe they can pop the stones out of the gauntlet? But again, can anyone hold an infinity stone? See Guardians of the Galaxy, or was that specific to the Power Stone?

IMO, Strange is as much at fault as Quill is for not telling Quill that once Mantis was up on Thanos that he needed to be as far from the fight as possible.

It's possible that there are futures where he did just that and Quill can't be talked down because "where is Gamora why isn't she here with him OMG answer my f-ing question where is Gamora!?!?!?". It might be that trying to have that conversation reveals Gamora's death, or gets the gears turning in Quill's head that something is wrong.

I mean... look at how he reacted when he learned that Ego killed his mom like... 20+ years ago. Instant rage and violence. Thanos literally just took Gamora and reappeared without her. I'm not sure you can easily stop him from involving himself when Thanos returns.

I think the movie is telling us that Strange either did exactly what needed to be done to win, or let things play out exactly as they were meant to in order to win.

[Callos_DeTerran]

While we're at it: last time we had the discussion why Thanos didn't just create infinite resources with the Infinity Stones.

Do you think that suggestion will be discussed with Thanos?

I'd say 85% not. Who wants to bet? 10 silver? :-)

Cause that wouldn't have proven Thanos' solution for Titan right. Which is just as, if not more, important to him as actually solving the problem that he sees.

EDIT: As for the Gauntlet, it is very obviously damaged after the Snap, but it is apparently still usable. Just not for sweeping, universal changes anymore, not by Thanos at least. Commentary says that doing the Snap didn't just damage the Gauntlet (which could be reforged, in theory) but Thanos as well...not to mention Stormbringer caving in his chest right before that and between the damage to the Gauntlet and Thanos, he isn't capable of Snap-level Infinity Stone usage anymore. That's the explanation they apparently plan on using for why the heroes stand a better chance in the rematch after getting trounced so thoroughly in the first bout, Thanos can't just snap them out of existence anymore and his abilities have been neutered somewhat.

[Forum Explorer]

This could all be true. But, we don't know how powerful Thanos is without the stones. Presumably pretty powerful. Further, I'm not sure that just anyone can use the stones like that. I thought there was a line (maybe just propaganda) that Thanos is the only one strong enough to use more than one stone together. And I thought that you needed special conditions as a mortal to even handle the stones (Quill can because he's part celestial, and also he had the Guardians and the power of... camaraderie? Strange knows how to use the Time Stone, but he learned specific spells out of a book to do so, and has the amulet that houses it.

Yes, the Gauntlets are holding the four stones, but I don't know if the heroes can use them that way. Remember, Strange sends the Cloak of Levitation to "stop [Thanos] from closing his hand". This implies that Thanos needs to gesture with the gauntlet to use the power of the stones (like a Snap). So unless someone can fit that massive gauntlet on their hand, I don't think the heroes could have used it against Thanos. And that leaves the question of how strong he is to fight them and get it back.

Maybe they can pop the stones out of the gauntlet? But again, can anyone hold an infinity stone? See Guardians of the Galaxy, or was that specific to the Power Stone?

It's possible that there are futures where he did just that and Quill can't be talked down because "where is Gamora why isn't she here with him OMG answer my f-ing question where is Gamora!?!?!?". It might be that trying to have that conversation reveals Gamora's death, or gets the gears turning in Quill's head that something is wrong.

I mean... look at how he reacted when he learned that Ego killed his mom like... 20+ years ago. Instant rage and violence. Thanos literally just took Gamora and reappeared without her. I'm not sure you can easily stop him from involving himself when Thanos returns.

I think the movie is telling us that Strange either did exactly what needed to be done to win, or let things play out exactly as they were meant to in order to win.

Didn't Thanos basically take out the Hulk without using any Infinity Stones? As for why the others can't use them, see the first Guardians of the Galaxy. If you can't control it, using them destroys the wielder.

[BWR]

Pedantically, I believe he merely lops off an arm. This is pretty powerful, but requires an enemy to be willing to shove an appendage through the portal at exactly the right time. Thanos is presumably uncooperative in this regard.
.

...except for the bit where they got Mantis on him and had him dazed and they had his arm extended and were trying to get the gauntlet off. Strange could have let that one arm be held by Spidey and Drax, and just portal'd off the arm that Tony was holding.

[Chen]

...except for the bit where they got Mantis on him and had him dazed and they had his arm extended and were trying to get the gauntlet off. Strange could have let that one arm be held by Spidey and Drax, and just portal'd off the arm that Tony was holding.

Portalling the arm off probably not since you’d need to drag the whole gauntlet through the portal. But dropping him through a portal and the cutting off his legs would probably work pretty well to at least cripple him. Realistically though they should just have never showed that initial portal/arm cut if they didnt want them to work that way.

[Wookieetank]

Portalling the arm off probably not since you’d need to drag the whole gauntlet through the portal. But dropping him through a portal and the cutting off his legs would probably work pretty well to at least cripple him. Realistically though they should just have never showed that initial portal/arm cut if they didnt want them to work that way.

They show Strange moving portals around in Thor 3 to force teleport Loki, so I don't see how they couldn't have done it here. Just make the portal big enough to pass around whoever is holding the arm and then close it once just over the arm. I know why they didn't do that, cause it would've snarled up their narrative, but the how seems pretty straight forward.

[Erloas]

Didn't Thanos basically take out the Hulk without using any Infinity Stones? As for why the others can't use them, see the first Guardians of the Galaxy. If you can't control it, using them destroys the wielder.

I suppose it is a bit of conjecture still, but it seems like the stones made him much stronger even when he wasn't directly using them. Just having them made him more powerful. He had two, if I remember correctly, of the stones when he fights the hulk.
Also as had been established, hulk and Thor are pretty evenly matched. Having "normal" aliens being very powerful is pretty well in line with the universe as a whole.

[The Glyphstone]

He had the Power Stone when he boarded the Asgardian transport, and possibly the Reality Stone as well - my memory isn't up to remembering the scene where he drops the Space Stone into his gauntlet.

[Keltest]

He had the Power Stone when he boarded the Asgardian transport, and possibly the Reality Stone as well - my memory isn't up to remembering the scene where he drops the Space Stone into his gauntlet.

He got reality as the third stone.

[Dr.Samurai]

He only had the Power Stone when he fought the Hulk (he gets the Space Stone from Loki after that, then Reality Stone from the Collector. Then the Soul Stone with Gamora, then the Time Stone from Strange, then the Mind Stone from Vision).

It's unclear if he defeated the Hulk because of the Power Stone or if he would have defeated the Hulk anyways. The line from his minion guy made it seem like he was relishing using his power against a suitable foe, so maybe he really is that strong.