Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

[Eldan]

Notes is one thing, but then I hear Americans talk about paying for stuff like rent with checks. I've never even seen a check outside of really, really old movies!

[Max_Killjoy]

Notes is one thing, but then I hear Americans talk about paying for stuff like rent with checks. I've never even seen a check outside of really, really old movies!

Most of us who have rent still do. It's one of the few things that's steadfastly not electronic. There's still a chunk who pay all their utility bills with checks every month, receiving a bill in the mail and sending back a check for each one.

[Cikomyr]

Most of us who have rent still do. It's one of the few things that's steadfastly not electronic. There's still a chunk who pay all their utility bills with checks every month, receiving a bill in the mail and sending back a check for each one.

I still find weird how much cash money Americans use.

Also, why you still have the silly 1$ bills and 1 cents coins.

[Eldan]

Most of us who have rent still do. It's one of the few things that's steadfastly not electronic. There's still a chunk who pay all their utility bills with checks every month, receiving a bill in the mail and sending back a check for each one.

See, I have automatic bank transfers set up for my rent, phone, health insurance, water, power and gas, and I'm a poor student. I don't get it. Why?

[Max_Killjoy]

I still find weird how much cash money Americans use.

Also, why you still have the silly 1$ bills and 1 cents coins.

Because our dollar is still worth enough that it matters, and no one wants to adjust everything that would have to be adjusted to round all transactions to five cent increments.

There are still a lot of people who carry pennies as part of the change in their pocket, and collect pennies to bundle into 50 cent "rolls" and deposit at the bank.

[Max_Killjoy]

See, I have automatic bank transfers set up for my rent, phone, health insurance, water, power and gas, and I'm a poor student. I don't get it. Why?

Cultural momentum.

Distrust of institutions and privacy/security concerns (some rational, some not).

Many landlords are small businesses or private property owners, that are set up to take checks just as they have been for decades in some cases.

[Traab]

Plus america tends to drift a decade or two behind europe on things like debit cards and such from what I recall. Its only recently that chip scanners have become ubiquitous in my neck of the woods. Up until a year or two ago there were many places that didnt have a chip scanner yet, just the old cards. As for rent, if you are renting through a company im sure its easy to setup automatic deposit. If its some guy renting his second house, checks are a better option because its easier to keep track of and proof they were exchanged. But I almost never see people using checks at companies anymore. Im not sure when the last time I saw a person break out a check at the grocery store for example.

[Cikomyr]

Because our dollar is still worth enough that it matters, and no one wants to adjust everything that would have to be adjusted to round all transactions to five cent increments.

There are still a lot of people who carry pennies as part of the change in their pocket, and collect pennies to bundle into 50 cent "rolls" and deposit at the bank.

One dollar is not really worth anything that a coin dollar wouldn't be worth.

And abolishing the penny wouldn't make current penny worthless. Just adopt the Canadian model. It's straightforward and has saved a lot of money to the overall economy. Transactions are only rounded to the nearest 0.05$ when you pay in cash. And banks are still expected to accept any amount of rolled up pennies, they just don't distribute them anymore.

[Max_Killjoy]

One dollar is not really worth anything that a coin dollar wouldn't be worth.

And abolishing the penny wouldn't make current penny worthless. Just adopt the Canadian model. It's straightforward and has saved a lot of money to the overall economy. Transactions are only rounded to the nearest 0.05$ when you pay in cash. And banks are still expected to accept any amount of rolled up pennies, they just don't distribute them anymore.

OK, on the dollar, you're talking about coins vs paper money, not "getting rid of cash dollars". Different question, and one I find pretty pointless. Coin dollar, cash dollar, whatever.

As for the penny, we'll keep it, thanks.

[georgie_leech]

One dollar is not really worth anything that a coin dollar wouldn't be worth.

And abolishing the penny wouldn't make current penny worthless. Just adopt the Canadian model. It's straightforward and has saved a lot of money to the overall economy. Transactions are only rounded to the nearest 0.05$ when you pay in cash. And banks are still expected to accept any amount of rolled up pennies, they just don't distribute them anymore.

Won't someone please think of the potential losses for Jarden Zinc?!

[Beelzebub1111]

I'd rather not have pennies. They cost something like 2 and a half cents per cent minted. It's just wasteful at this point.

[mucat]

As for the penny, we'll keep it, thanks.

"We"?

Max speaks only for himself on the penny thing. Hell, Max can have all my pennies if he'll arrange a dropoff scheme.

The checks-for-rent thing is still seen to this day, even in high-tech spots like silicon valley. It's partly because both landlord and tenant are usually private individuals, either of whom might abruptly change banks or account structures, and who might not entirely TRUST each other with financial details, in case the relationship goes sour. All in all, less hassle to just write the landlord a check.

If the landlord is a corporation, electronic transactions are more likely. (Not that corporations are more trustworthy, but in a given dispute, they're less likely to pull small-time identity-theft shenanigans, and more likely to just hunker down behind their legal teams and stonewall you. Plus, they actually KNOW how to set up electronic transfers, whereas two private individuals are likely to go "Sh*t, how do we set this up again?" "I think I need your routing number? Or maybe you need mine, plus a deposit slip? Damn it; I knew all this once." "Aw, to hell with it. I'll write you a check.")

[PhantomFox]

All I know is that a strap of 100 bills of any denomination is about an inch thick, and that didn't look like the right size. But again, visual shorthand, I get it.

[Kish]

Count me in on "would gladly get rid of the penny" and for that matter "my rent is entirely electronically paid, and I think electronic rent payments may be way more common than Max thinks."

[mucat]

I still find weird how much cash money Americans use.

For something like Brun's clock sale, cash is perfect. Checks can bounce. Electronic transfers are a pain in the ass when neither person has any of the requisite hardware. They're meeting only this once, Brun doesn't want to track the guy down and shake him down for the money (even if they sign an iron-clad contract), and he doesn't want Brun to sell the clock to someone else for <i>fear</i> of a bounced check.

The only danger in a cash transaction is actual old-fashioned robbery or theft, which might scare them both less than the possibility of getting snared in paperwork hell. ;-)

[InvisibleBison]

I'd rather not have pennies. They cost something like 2 and a half cents per cent minted. It's just wasteful at this point.

While I'm all for getting rid of the penny, I've never really understood this argument. Leaving aside the fact that government isn't a for-profit institution, it doesn't matter if making a penny costs more than one cent so long as the total cost of all money produced in a given span of time is less than the total value of that money.

[Max_Killjoy]

While I'm all for getting rid of the penny, I've never really understood this argument. Leaving aside the fact that government isn't a for-profit institution, it doesn't matter if making a penny costs more than one cent so long as the total cost of all money produced in a given span of time is less than the total value of that money.

Plus we don't have a gold-standard or whatever-standard monetary system.

The monetary value of a penny isn't determined by what goes into it any more than the value of a $100 bill is determined by the paper and ink it's made of.

[Cikomyr]

OK, on the dollar, you're talking about coins vs paper money, not "getting rid of cash dollars". Different question, and one I find pretty pointless. Coin dollar, cash dollar, whatever.

As for the penny, we'll keep it, thanks.

Is this a "grumpy man doesn't like change" thingy that keeps you on the Imperial System?

Because it sounds just like grumpy man who doesn't like change.

[Cikomyr]

Plus we don't have a gold-standard or whatever-standard monetary system.

The monetary value of a penny isn't determined by what goes into it any more than the value of a $100 bill is determined by the paper and ink it's made of.

There is an interesting argument about how the dollar became the only currency for oil international trading at the same time as Nixon abandoned the Gold Standard.

In a way, your currency is now backed by the world dependency on the main form of energy trading. Somehow, it's even more useful and less arbitrary than gold .

[Fawkes]

Pennies are so rarely used at this point, there has been interest in abandoning them. There's even a wikipedia page about it!

As for me, anything less than a quarter gets either lost or thrown in a jar and forgotten about for a few years until I remember to drop them in a coinstar machine. I pay for most things by card anyway, so it takes a long time for that loose change to add up to anything worthwhile.

While I'm all for getting rid of the penny, I've never really understood this argument. Leaving aside the fact that government isn't a for-profit institution, it doesn't matter if making a penny costs more than one cent so long as the total cost of all money produced in a given span of time is less than the total value of that money.

The issue isn't just that it costs more than a penny to make a penny - it's that the raw materials that make up the penny are worth more than the value of the penny - if you take a bunch of pennies and melt them down, you'll have made a profit. (There's also other arguments - you can see them on the wiki article)

[Cikomyr]

The issue isn't just that it costs more than a penny to make a penny - it's that the raw materials that make up the penny are worth more than the value of the penny - if you take a bunch of pennies and melt them down, you'll have made a profit. (There's also other arguments - you can see them on the wiki article)

The real issue isn't the cost of producing a penny VS the value of the penny. The real issue is the cost to the economy itself the penny is causing. Handling and managing the pennies is actively costing people and businesses, they take time to administrate, and they serve little to no purpose. The point of any currency is to facilitate exchanges of goods and services, but paying any amount higher than 0.10$ in unrolled penny is generally considered a duck move by everyone.

Proof: all vending mschines refuse the Penny as a mean of exchange. Theres a reason for that.

We already effectively round partial numbers to the nearest cent for all transactions. There's a reason the half penny coin died a long time ago.

[Max_Killjoy]

Is this a "grumpy man doesn't like change" thingy that keeps you on the Imperial System?

Because it sounds just like grumpy man who doesn't like change.

So you're saying I like pennies because I hate change?

[Max_Killjoy]

The real issue isn't the cost of producing a penny VS the value of the penny. The real issue is the cost to the economy itself the penny is causing. Handling and managing the pennies is actively costing people and businesses, they take time to administrate, and they serve little to no purpose. The point of any currency is to facilitate exchanges of goods and services, but paying any amount higher than 0.10$ in unrolled penny is generally considered a duck move by everyone.

Proof: all vending mschines refuse the Penny as a mean of exchange. Theres a reason for that.

We already effectively round partial numbers to the nearest cent for all transactions. There's a reason the half penny coin died a long time ago.

Sounds more like change for the sake of change, with a lot of excuses about "efficiency".

That there's even a "get rid of the penny" effort is just another bit of proof that there's no cause so inane, so trivial, so pointless... that you won't find people latching onto it as if it's the most important thing ever.

Meanwhile... well, politics ban, so I can't list off all the 100s of issues more important than "get rid of the penny" that those people could be putting their effort into.

Sheesh.

[Fawkes]

Sounds more like change for the sake of change, with a lot of excuses about "efficiency".

That there's even a "get rid of the penny" effort is just another bit of proof that there's no cause so inane, so trivial, so pointless... that you won't find people latching onto it as if it's the most important thing ever.

Meanwhile... well, politics ban, so I can't list off all the 100s of issues more important than "get rid of the penny" that those people could be putting their effort into.

Sheesh.

Man you just went through like 3 different bad-faith argument deflection tactics in one post. That's almost impressive.

[Beelzebub1111]

Seven Hundred and Seventy Five Croissants.

[Max_Killjoy]

Man you just went through like 3 different bad-faith argument deflection tactics in one post. That's almost impressive.

Or rather, that's my actually opinion on the matter.

"Efficiency" is cited, vague references to lost time and effort, no solid numbers given, just "efficiency". I see vague "efficiency" cited all the time, and then when pressed they can offer nothing but a sort of devotion to the notion.

And the rest, perhaps it's shocking, but I actually do consider the entire "get rid of the penny" thing a blithering ridiculous distraction for people who have no sense of priority or scale whatsoever. If I met one I'd tell them to go plant some trees or volunteer at a shelter (homeless, battered women, abused pets, whatever will help them get some perspective) or write their congressperson about something that actually affects people's lives.

But hey, I guess my actual thoughts on the matter only count as "bad faith" and "deflection".

So I might as well be blunt -- anyone putting any effort into getting rid of the penny is pretty much the poster child for "first world problems".

[Fawkes]

Or rather, that's my actually opinion on the matter.

"Efficiency" is cited, vague references to lost time and effort, no solid numbers given, just "efficiency". I see vague "efficiency" cited all the time, and then when pressed they can offer nothing but a sort of devotion to the notion.

And the rest, perhaps it's shocking, but I actually do consider the entire "get rid of the penny" thing a blithering ridiculous distraction for people who have no sense of priority or scale whatsoever. If I met one I'd tell them to go plant some trees or volunteer at a shelter (homeless, battered women, abused pets, whatever will help them get some perspective) or write their congressperson about something that actually affects people's lives.

But hey, I guess my actual thoughts on the matter only count as "bad faith" and "deflection".

So I might as well be blunt -- anyone putting any effort into getting rid of the penny is pretty much the poster child for "first world problems".

The numbers exist - you can read the figures in the wiki article I posted, and the articles backing up those findings are linked in the article's references, if you're actually interested in the benefits of dropping the penny.

It may surprise you that people have the ability to care about multiple issues at once, and if those people happen to be economists, it's hardly a waste of their time to measure what effects our currency has on our economy - that's kind of their whole thing.

If the act of vouching for abandoning the penny is a poor use of time for you, one wonders why you see it so important to voice your opinion against it, rather than instead using your time to plant trees yourself. (And if you're worried about the environment, I would mention that mining zinc and copper to make a useless coin isn't great for our carbon footprint).

And if it really is a matter of using one's time effectively to make a positive impact, then I've got some good news for you - economists believe that eliminating the penny will save us all time in the long run, which means more hours in the day for volunteering at shelters! Plus, we can take the estimated $50 million a year the US government wastes on minting pennies and use that to fund those same shelters!

The ultimate question is: if the idea of losing the penny is so unimportant, so meaningless, that anyone who cares about such a thing is a fool, then why do you care?

[Wraith]

As for the penny, we'll keep it, thanks.

I'm genuinely curious as to why? I'm not particularly affluent, but if I drop pennies in the street I don't bother to pick them up again because it's not worth my time or energy. The only use for them I've had in the last 20 years is a small box full which my daughter stacks up and knocks over as toys, because it costs me more in petrol to drive to the bank to deposit them, than I'd get FOR depositing them.

I'm not asking to be confrontational or combative at all, I just wonder as you seem to come across as unexpectedly resolute on the subject.

Seven Hundred and Seventy Five Croissants.

Answering the important questions.

Also; your baker is robbing you, if you pay more than a dollar for a croissant. Not to turn this into a competition or anything, but....

[Lethologica]

This conversation reminds me of nothing so much as Crowley trying to explain to his Hellish peers just why tying up every portable telephone system in Central London for 45 minutes at lunchtime was a victory for Satan.

[Vinyadan]

Slightly unrelated to the current discussion: did the dollar have a sub-cent unit, when it was created? It was worth more, wasn't it?

"We"?

The checks-for-rent thing is still seen to this day, even in high-tech spots like silicon valley. It's partly because both landlord and tenant are usually private individuals, either of whom might abruptly change banks or account structures, and who might not entirely TRUST each other with financial details, in case the relationship goes sour. All in all, less hassle to just write the landlord a check.

"I don't trust you" >>> "Don't worry, I'll write you a check"

Something doesn't look right

Jokes aside, it's not very difficult to make an online credit transfer. It's the same as going to the bank and doing it. Automating it is even easier, you can just discuss it on the phone with your bank and say "I want this money to be sent to IBAN and BIC (if needed) each month." You also don't really need any infrastructure.

But it is interesting to think of a situation in which people trust each other so little, they don't want their counterpart to know their bank account number.

Or a situation, as the one you seem to describe, where people change bank account fairly often.

There are situations that I found excessive in the other direction, though. In Germany, a credit reporting agency like Schufa keeps tabs on 3/4 of the population.