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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I don't remember this arc well enough to address your characterization of it, but...Just about any relationship, much less failed relationships, will be between inherently flawed people. It is nonetheless frequently the case that one person is primarily to blame for the failure of the relationship. Actions, not personalities, determine responsibility.
    I went through and re-read the arc, which took a while because it's spread out over 300 strips (maybe more, I didn't go all the way through to the breakup). Because there used to be other characters in this comic.

    What I gathered from it was that while Sven is to blame, it's also hard to feel angry at him.

    They sleep together, and Sven asks if it's going to be more than a one night stand.
    Faye says that she's in a bad place and needs to talk to her therapist, tells everybody, and then gets drunk. One of the early signs of her alchoholism.
    Faye eventually decides it was a one night stand, thank you very much good day.
    There's a bit of tentative courting back and forth.
    Faye decides to sleep with him a second time. Sven asks if this is going to be a regular thing, Faye says no, and then gets offended when Sven is perfectly fine with that.
    Considerably later, they're talking in the coffee shop and Faye gets jealous over the possibility that Sven is seeing someone else. Sven reminds her that they're NOT dating, they just sleep together sometimes. Faye says that if he does sleep with somebody else she's gone, and Sven says he's fine with that. After all, it isn't a serious relationship to him and he's not making any promises to remain monogamous.

    Of course, eventually Sven does sleep with someone else, and feels unexpectedly guilty about it. He's guilted into coming clean, and feels like garbage after Faye leaves him. He finds that he actually did care about Faye and wanted a serious relationship for the first time in his life, even if he didn't realize it at the time. This changes his whole outlook on life and makes him a better person in general. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop him from being painfully oblivious about coming to Faye with this revelation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I think I missed where Faye was dating Angus while also sleeping with Sven.
    You missed it because it never happened. Faye was starting to be more amicable with Angus, but her relationship with him didn't start until much later. In fact, there's a strip where he hits on her and she tells him "not today, I just broke up with my boyfriend and I'm in a crappy mood".

  2. - Top - End - #1232
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I went through and re-read the arc, which took a while because it's spread out over 300 strips (maybe more, I didn't go all the way through to the breakup). Because there used to be other characters in this comic.

    What I gathered from it was that while Sven is to blame, it's also hard to feel angry at him.

    They sleep together, and Sven asks if it's going to be more than a one night stand.
    Faye says that she's in a bad place and needs to talk to her therapist, tells everybody, and then gets drunk. One of the early signs of her alchoholism.
    Faye eventually decides it was a one night stand, thank you very much good day.
    There's a bit of tentative courting back and forth.
    Faye decides to sleep with him a second time. Sven asks if this is going to be a regular thing, Faye says no, and then gets offended when Sven is perfectly fine with that.
    Considerably later, they're talking in the coffee shop and Faye gets jealous over the possibility that Sven is seeing someone else. Sven reminds her that they're NOT dating, they just sleep together sometimes. Faye says that if he does sleep with somebody else she's gone, and Sven says he's fine with that. After all, it isn't a serious relationship to him and he's not making any promises to remain monogamous.

    Of course, eventually Sven does sleep with someone else, and feels unexpectedly guilty about it. He's guilted into coming clean, and feels like garbage after Faye leaves him. He finds that he actually did care about Faye and wanted a serious relationship for the first time in his life, even if he didn't realize it at the time. This changes his whole outlook on life and makes him a better person in general. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop him from being painfully oblivious about coming to Faye with this revelation.



    You missed it because it never happened. Faye was starting to be more amicable with Angus, but her relationship with him didn't start until much later. In fact, there's a strip where he hits on her and she tells him "not today, I just broke up with my boyfriend and I'm in a crappy mood".
    Yeah that about covers it. This was a sort of messy casual hookup style relationship where both realized they felt a bit more than they expected to... precisely 30 seconds after it was too late to avoid ruining it. Though in fayes case I think it was more denial than anything as she was a big basket full of issues at the time, especially around dating. Sven had never really been involved with someone beyond wham bam thank you maam so he didnt realize it till he realized how guilty he felt.
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  3. - Top - End - #1233
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    I feel like anything I could say about today's comic would too controversial for my taste...
    So I'll just say I'm proud Jeph could contain himself and not make the title Call of Booty (though, I feel like he already made that joke)
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  4. - Top - End - #1234
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Given how much of a minefield Faye is, "deployment" seems about right, Bubbles. Still, good job on running with it.

  5. - Top - End - #1235
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    I seem to have missed Dora and Sven making up. Last I remember Dora cut him of her life and I don't remember them making up since then I could be wrong, but that seems like a big thing to leave off page.

  6. - Top - End - #1236
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    American siblings tend to be protrayed as remarkably harsh with eavh other, and as such, remarkably forgiving. It makes as much sense as anything else that they met up offscreen, called each other some immature names, and hugged it out.

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  7. - Top - End - #1237
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

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  8. - Top - End - #1238
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    Okay. I must havr missed that one.

  9. - Top - End - #1239
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Depending on what kind of bar this is, its not out of the question that they might have pizza available. Not good pizza, but pizza.
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  10. - Top - End - #1240
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Depending on what kind of bar this is, its not out of the question that they might have pizza available. Not good pizza, but pizza.
    I'm pretty sure her gut already weighed in on whether bar pizza is a good idea
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  11. - Top - End - #1241
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Okay. I must havr missed that one.
    Don't worry about it. Many people in this thread seemed to have forgot a lot of plot points about this comic, or imagined others.

  12. - Top - End - #1242
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Don't worry about it. Many people in this thread seemed to have forgot a lot of plot points about this comic, or imagined others.
    Well, we can't all have perfect memory. And it's a long comic.

    Also: if you're stomach is still not fine, why did you leave the toilet, Faye? Or is it so bad it came back three minutes later? Then you really should head home.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Well, we can't all have perfect memory. And it's a long comic.

    Also: if you're stomach is still not fine, why did you leave the toilet, Faye? Or is it so bad it came back three minutes later? Then you really should head home.
    No, I have had that experience myself.
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  14. - Top - End - #1244
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Faye's response is the correct response. Kombucha sucks. Don't fall for the trap. Its tea that smells like bad alcohol.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  15. - Top - End - #1245
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    It has only slightly more alcohol than ginger ale. She'll be fine.

  16. - Top - End - #1246
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    You can buy 2 litre bottles of lemonade shandy from the supermarket that are 0.5% alcohol content. It's a soft drink, you don't even get carded for it.

    Although it's a pretty poor bar that doesn't serve at last one brand of 0% alcohol beer. Or is that a European thing that hasn't made it to the USA? Non-alcoholic alternatives branded by the big names like Carling are a pretty common thing over here, for just this sort of occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Faye's response is the correct response. Kombucha sucks. Don't fall for the trap. Its tea that smells like bad alcohol.
    Given some of the rotgut that Faye has drunk over the years, "smells like bad alcohol" is probably a ringing endorsement....
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  17. - Top - End - #1247
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Although it's a pretty poor bar that doesn't serve at last one brand of 0% alcohol beer. Or is that a European thing that hasn't made it to the USA?
    has become more common between my visits in 2013 and 2018, at least on the west coast.
    * my emphasis

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  18. - Top - End - #1248
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    It has only slightly more alcohol than ginger ale. She'll be fine.
    "Slightly more" might already be too much for a recovering alcoholic. She's right, she doesn't know her threshold and the only way to figure it out is falling off the wagon. She's doing the right thing here, the only responsible option is zero alcohol.

  19. - Top - End - #1249
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    "Slightly more" might already be too much for a recovering alcoholic. She's right, she doesn't know her threshold and the only way to figure it out is falling off the wagon.
    Hopefully she hasn't tried to drink orange juice, or use mouthwash.

    I'm being deliberately facetious, of course. If Faye says she wants zero alcohol then that's good enough for me, but I retain the opinion that it's a crappy bar that has nothing between coca-cola and Dumkopfbrau, or whatever the hell artisan nonsense it was that made Martin sing poorly-remembered Men At Work anthems.
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  20. - Top - End - #1250
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Mhm, even alcohol-free beer is, in my experience, just "very low alcohol" beer. I think that this would be a good chance to explore Arab drinks.
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  21. - Top - End - #1251
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    "Slightly more" might already be too much for a recovering alcoholic. She's right, she doesn't know her threshold and the only way to figure it out is falling off the wagon. She's doing the right thing here, the only responsible option is zero alcohol.
    Without derailing the thread too much...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...nymous/386255/
    https://www.salon.com/2014/04/05/deb...s_of_recovery/
    https://psmag.com/social-justice/75-...-problem-74268

    Short version... the 12-step approach, the whole "admission of helplessness", the assertion of "once an addict, always an addict", and so on... turns out to be so much hokum.
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  22. - Top - End - #1252
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Without derailing the thread too much...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...nymous/386255/
    https://www.salon.com/2014/04/05/deb...s_of_recovery/
    https://psmag.com/social-justice/75-...-problem-74268

    Short version... the 12-step approach, the whole "admission of helplessness", the assertion of "once an addict, always an addict", and so on... turns out to be so much hokum.
    Those articles all seem to be criticizing the AA in particular, which is fair enough I suppose (I have no knowledge either way). It doesn't seem to indicate that alcoholism is something you can "defeat" and then no longer worry about. Addictive personalities exist, and carefully staying away from your particular boogeyman seems like common sense. Remember also that we're dealing with comic book time here, and it's probably been less than a year in-universe since Faye went from functioning alchoholic to...not. Her life isn't exactly in a stable place at the moment, what with the new start-up business and all that.

    In particular, this is exactly the sort of behaviour she's trying to avoid. She just had a stressful conversation with Sven, and now she wants a drink to cope with that. That, to me, seems like a very bad idea. If she's going to re-introduce alcohol to her life it would need to be on her terms.

  23. - Top - End - #1253
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Although it's a pretty poor bar that doesn't serve at last one brand of 0% alcohol beer. Or is that a European thing that hasn't made it to the USA? Non-alcoholic alternatives branded by the big names like Carling are a pretty common thing over here, for just this sort of occasion.
    Nah, we have stuff like O'Doul's, which again, you don't even need a liquor license to sell. You'd need to drink at least 20 of them to get the alcohol content in a single beer.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Those articles all seem to be criticizing the AA in particular, which is fair enough I suppose (I have no knowledge either way). It doesn't seem to indicate that alcoholism is something you can "defeat" and then no longer worry about. Addictive personalities exist, and carefully staying away from your particular boogeyman seems like common sense. Remember also that we're dealing with comic book time here, and it's probably been less than a year in-universe since Faye went from functioning alchoholic to...not. Her life isn't exactly in a stable place at the moment, what with the new start-up business and all that.

    In particular, this is exactly the sort of behaviour she's trying to avoid. She just had a stressful conversation with Sven, and now she wants a drink to cope with that. That, to me, seems like a very bad idea. If she's going to re-introduce alcohol to her life it would need to be on her terms.
    Of course.

    The point is that this whole "but you're always going to be an addict and if you ever touch _____ again that's a failure" assertion has been empirically busted, to the point that there are other programs with better success rates than "12 step" that focus on moderation and treating underlying causes, not on treating the addict as a helpless wretch whose only hope is surrender to a "higher power" and absolute abstinence.
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  25. - Top - End - #1255
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Of course.

    The point is that this whole "but you're always going to be an addict and if you ever touch _____ again that's a failure" assertion has been empirically busted, to the point that there are other programs with better success rates than "12 step" that focus on moderation and treating underlying causes, not on treating the addict as a helpless wretch whose only hope is surrender to a "higher power" and absolute abstinence.
    Regardless of whether she could, at some point in the future, go back to drinking casually without trying to use it as a remedy for her problems, right now what she is trying to fight is the impulse to drink to deal with stress. Knowing that in the future she may have things in enough order to maintain that level of self control doesn't do squat for helping her get through the night without crashing and burning again.

    Furthermore, I guarantee you that those other programs would also consider drinking alcohol to relive any random bit of mild stress to be a bad thing, unless theyre just trying to make functioning alcoholics instead of non-functioning alcoholics.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Regardless of whether she could, at some point in the future, go back to drinking casually without trying to use it as a remedy for her problems, right now what she is trying to fight is the impulse to drink to deal with stress. Knowing that in the future she may have things in enough order to maintain that level of self control doesn't do squat for helping her get through the night without crashing and burning again.

    Furthermore, I guarantee you that those other programs would also consider drinking alcohol to relive any random bit of mild stress to be a bad thing, unless theyre just trying to make functioning alcoholics instead of non-functioning alcoholics.
    Not arguing against any of that or saying Faye could/should use alcohol as a crutch.

    Just pointing out that "you can never ever touch it again" isn't a universal truth, and that the highly-touted 12-step programs that tout this axiom have a success rate that's empirically the same as an individual attempting to go cold turkey on their own.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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  27. - Top - End - #1257
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Not arguing against any of that or saying Faye could/should use alcohol as a crutch.

    Just pointing out that "you can never ever touch it again" isn't a universal truth, and that the highly-touted 12-step programs that tout this axiom have a success rate that's empirically the same as an individual attempting to go cold turkey on their own.
    Not all alcoholics are the same. There are plenty of people who lack the self control to do anything other than all or nothing. Props to the folks who can get things under enough control to resume some healthy social drinking and things like that, but not everybody can do that, and trying just makes the problem come back full force. Faye is almost certainly going to be one of those people, given that she was close to an alcoholic even when her life was fairly stable and she had fewer active issues.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Speaking as one person here who's outed themselves as an actual sufferer, here is my perspective --

    Yes, we as a whole are generally aware of non-alcoholic beers which have less alcohol by volume than most commercial orange juices or insert-your-own-example here. Your body also makes trace alcohol during metabolism and a bunch of other reasons why you can't ever truly be alcohol free. Much like religious prohibitions, someone going, 'well, technically...<explanation why purity on said issue is impossible>' is pretty much missing the point. Addiction is a combination of biological/chemical and mental/emotional interactions, and often case social or mental context is more important than those 0.01 or 0.5 percents. In Faye's case, something that looks, smells, and seems like a beer might be a problem, regardless of alcohol content.

    Personally, I do drink near beers (Kaliber is the one I would suggest, if you were to host me at a party). On the other hand, too many beers at a bar/party was never my problem, so much as half a fifth of scotch (later a fifth of vodka) to get to sleep (and to eliminate the need to develop adult coping mechanisms, for which the alcohol served as an inefficient and life-ruining replacement).


    Regarding AA--
    The sudden flurry of Atlantic and such articles, and the resultant reddit/Cracked articles about those articles are half 'you just noticed this thing the peer-review journals have been discussing for decades?' and a little bit like scientists feel when a science journalist makes something into a story everyone's now heard ('oh good, now everyone's busybody uncle will have an half-assed-informed opinion to share at Thanksgiving this year.'). People in the field (sufferers and treatment professionals) have been well aware of the problematic success rates of the primary treatment programs for some time. The end result is, well, that the success rates of all the most well known options is not great. There are a huge number of complicating factors, many of which make the analysis less than perfectly fair. For example, the most commonly known/popular model is going to pick up the looky-lous, the fence-sitters, the 'I'm not sure I really want to quitters,' and, of course, the court-mandateds. Regardless, the numbers are not great. This really isn't surprising. The simple fact of the matter is that something as complex as chemical dependency (plus any psycho-medical issue) is going to be too complex for a one-size-fits-all methodology. That a single treatment model, developed by one doctor (with no addiction-specific training, given that there wasn't any at the time) and one layperson 84 years ago at a time when literally anything was better than the options available at the time should surprise no one.

    I go to AA meetings. Not for any faith in their particular methodology (certainly not for much of the rote verbiage in the big book), but simply for the act of having a community of sufferers to interact with and have fellowship with. For others it is, 'to have more people-whose-opinion-matters-to-me to let down if I slip up.' If the same meetings and fellowship existed, but with a Dialectical Behavior Therapy or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy model, that would probably be just as good. AA was just first one there, and thus has an inborn inertia (kind of like D&D for TTRPGS, to use an analogy that makes sense on this site).

    I think a lot of the criticism of AA/12 step is fair. I think no small part of it is 'I read an article, and now I have an opinion. Plus I smell blood in the water'-kneejerk reactions, and I generally ask if people have actually read the scientific literature that backed up that Atlantic article, etc.
    What I really fear is that people who legitimately have a problem, and ought to be looking for help fail to do so because they now have another excuse (and excuse-making is an endemic problem with this condition). Regardless of the treatment method chosen, choosing to get help and address the underlying issues which fostered one's chemical dependency is almost never the wrong decision.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-05-08 at 02:02 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #1259
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Speaking as one person here who's outed themselves as an actual sufferer, here is my perspective --

    Yes, we as a whole are generally aware of non-alcoholic beers which have less alcohol by volume than most commercial orange juices or insert-your-own-example here. Your body also makes trace alcohol during metabolism and a bunch of other reasons why you can't ever truly be alcohol free. Much like religious prohibitions, someone going, 'well, technically...<explanation why purity on said issue is impossible>' is pretty much missing the point. Addiction is a combination of biological/chemical and mental/emotional interactions, and often case social or mental context is more important than those 0.01 or 0.5 percents. In Faye's case, something that looks, smells, and seems like a beer might be a problem, regardless of alcohol content.

    Personally, I do drink near beers (Kaliber is the one I would suggest, if you were to host me at a party). On the other hand, too many beers at a bar/party was never my problem, so much as half a fifth of scotch (later a fifth of vodka) to get to sleep (and to eliminate the need to develop adult coping mechanisms, for which the alcohol served as an inefficient and life-ruining replacement).


    Regarding AA--
    The sudden flurry of Atlantic and such articles, and the resultant reddit/Cracked articles about those articles are half 'you just noticed this thing the peer-review journals have been discussing for decades?' and a little bit like scientists feel when a science journalist makes something into a story everyone's now heard ('oh good, now everyone's busybody uncle will have an half-assed-informed opinion to share at Thanksgiving this year.'). People in the field (sufferers and treatment professionals) have been well aware of the problematic success rates of the primary treatment programs for some time. The end result is, well, that the success rates of all the most well known options is not great. There are a huge number of complicating factors, many of which make the analysis less than perfectly fair. For example, the most commonly known/popular model is going to pick up the looky-lous, the fence-sitters, the 'I'm not sure I really want to quitters,' and, of course, the court-mandateds. Regardless, the numbers are not great. This really isn't surprising. The simple fact of the matter is that something as complex as chemical dependency (plus any psycho-medical issue) is going to be too complex for a one-size-fits-all methodology. That a single treatment model, developed by one doctor (with no addiction-specific training, given that there wasn't any at the time) and one layperson 84 years ago at a time when literally anything was better than the options available at the time should surprise no one.

    I go to AA meetings. Not for any faith in their particular methodology (certainly not for much of the rote verbiage in the big book), but simply for the act of having a community of sufferers to interact with and have fellowship with. For others it is, 'to have more people-whose-opinion-matters-to-me to let down if I slip up.' If the same meetings and fellowship existed, but with a Dialectical Behavior Therapy or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy model, that would probably be just as good. AA was just first one there, and thus has an inborn inertia (kind of like D&D for TTRPGS, to use an analogy that makes sense on this site).

    I think a lot of the criticism of AA/12 step is fair. I think no small part of it is 'I read an article, and now I have an opinion. Plus I smell blood in the water'-kneejerk reactions, and I generally ask if people have actually read the scientific literature that backed up that Atlantic article, etc.
    What I really fear is that people who legitimately have a problem, and ought to be looking for help fail to do so because they now have another excuse (and excuse-making is an endemic problem with this condition). Regardless of the treatment method chosen, choosing to get help and address the underlying issues which fostered one's chemical dependency is almost never the wrong decision.
    for many people who are struggling with a problem, having a group of others to turn to is a good thing. That's not the aspect I'm critical of.

    These articles... they're not the cause of my skepticism, rather they're reporting a lot of empirical findings that back my gut reaction to anything based on hammering on people that they're powerless and can never overcome a problem and that their only hope is letting someone else take control. I'm irked by the fact that these programs so often overpromise, and sell a broken model of what addiction is and is not, and have managed to make themselves THE go-to mandatory treatment option in so many jurisdictions.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  30. - Top - End - #1260
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    for many people who are struggling with a problem, having a group of others to turn to is a good thing. That's not the aspect I'm critical of.

    These articles... they're not the cause of my skepticism, rather they're reporting a lot of empirical findings that back my gut reaction to anything based on hammering on people that they're powerless and can never overcome a problem and that their only hope is letting someone else take control. I'm irked by the fact that these programs so often overpromise, and sell a broken model of what addiction is and is not, and have managed to make themselves THE go-to mandatory treatment option in so many jurisdictions.
    It seems to me you have two conflicting criticisms here. How can they be simultaneously be overpromising and selling a model where a real cure is impossible?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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