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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    I'm thankful to see that the majority of the replies don't argue for some scenario in which Sally isn't 100% wrong.

    You literally can't play in a game with a homophobe as a queer person. It's a real life safety and security danger that transcends a stupid game. And yes, this is about a character, not a player (as far as we know), but allowing hatred to exist in your group is a real issue.

    It must be nice to live in a world where some of you can safely debate things like other people's right to exist as a matter of discomfort for someone else. Actions have consequences, do you really want to associate with people (not characters) who are bigots? Your choice, always. Your choice sends a message to others.

    The OP's scenario basically came down to siding with homophobia, or siding against it. There's no Grey area on the topic. Allow me to express my thanks again that you chose what you did.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And now she's being crucified for it. Rights be damned. She's a horrible evil person for not wanting to associate with something that wasn't there till Luke forged link 1 in this chain of events with his Retcon. Period, she ought to be perma-banned! And form all of table top gaming! She's that evil! She should never have been allowed to associate, even though there was only a problem after a long smooth run when another person threw in a Retcon that either will have nothing to do with anything and never be mentioned again, or will come up and be something she's uncomfortable dealing with in her escapist fantasy!
    You don't get it, right? You know why nobody here really cares why Luke did that? Because we're living in a day and age when things like being queer have started to be normal and have to be accepted at face value.

    I´m getting sick of people trying to hide behind flimsy excuses. Knaight put it aptly, it really is more telling about a person when he/she feels provoked by something, than about the person doing the provocation. So don't try to come up with any imaginary rights, try to evoke tradition or come up with a stupid "if he would not had said it, she would not have flipped"-BS. Sally outed herself as a homophobe, made a fuzz about it and got what she deserved, so simple.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Everybody's in here arguing about whether it was "fair" to kick "Sally" out for having an opinion OP didn't like and I'm here wondering why that matters in the first place. "What if she had a good reason?" "What if 'Larry' was jebaiting her?" Who cares?

    This is a D&D table, not a grand high tribunal. Everybody at the table has the right not to associate with someone they don't like or can't get along with. Nobody needs to be perfectly objective automatons about whether every conceivable circumstance was viewed and discussed in their entirety. Does it really matter whether "Larry" or "Sally" were in the right?

    In the grand scheme, all that's at stake here is "Sally" doesn't get to play elf-games with OP's group any more because she threw a tantrum about someone's character choice and turned it into a "me or them" scenario. It wouldn't have mattered if she was "in the right", or what the exact circumstance was. Maybe she's marriage-phobic. Maybe (probably) she's afraid to catch gay cooties or whatever runs through homophobe's heads. In an alternate universe maybe she's triggered by any mention of the color blue.

    Doesn't really matter when it comes down to it what the reason was or who was in the right. GM and group member had a difference of opinion that couldn't be resolved. Player got the boot. Life goes on. Happens ten times a day without 4 pages of arguing and the first embers of a real knock down, drag out flamewar.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-01-15 at 03:53 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trampaige View Post
    I'm thankful to see that the majority of the replies don't argue for some scenario in which Sally isn't 100% wrong.

    You literally can't play in a game with a homophobe as a queer person. It's a real life safety and security danger that transcends a stupid game. And yes, this is about a character, not a player (as far as we know), but allowing hatred to exist in your group is a real issue.

    It must be nice to live in a world where some of you can safely debate things like other people's right to exist as a matter of discomfort for someone else. Actions have consequences, do you really want to associate with people (not characters) who are bigots? Your choice, always. Your choice sends a message to others.

    The OP's scenario basically came down to siding with homophobia, or siding against it. There's no Grey area on the topic. Allow me to express my thanks again that you chose what you did.
    The GM would have been in the wrong if Sally decided, "Well it makes me uncomfortable, but I'll just deal with it." and the GM decided to kick her out anyways for having an uncouth opinion.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    The GM would have been in the wrong if Sally decided, "Well it makes me uncomfortable, but I'll just deal with it." and the GM decided to kick her out anyways for having an uncouth opinion.
    So you're arguing, like Metahuman1, that Sally has the absolute right to decide who she wishes to associate with, but the GM does not have the same right; that is (to use his phrasing) that Sally is being 'crucified' if the GM decides he doesn't with to associate with her? It's odd how one-sided this freedom of association thing that's being pushed here is - apparently you're required to associate with bigots, but bigots have an absolute right to tell you what you're allowed to do with your character, allow in your game, or discuss about your life on the basis of free association.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverLordOcelot View Post
    So you're arguing, like Metahuman1, that Sally has the absolute right to decide who she wishes to associate with, but the GM does not have the same right; that is (to use his phrasing) that Sally is being 'crucified' if the GM decides he doesn't with to associate with her? It's odd how one-sided this freedom of association thing that's being pushed here is - apparently you're required to associate with bigots, but bigots have an absolute right to tell you what you're allowed to do with your character, allow in your game, or discuss about your life on the basis of free association.
    I didn't say that.

    GM told her that Larry does not have to change her character. She decided that meant she couldn't play with them. That's entirely her own problem.

    If Sally expressed the concern and was told Larry didn't have to change his character and she decided to "just deal with it" (by doing and saying nothing about it), then the GM would have been in the wrong to kick her out for daring to express a different opinion.

    Do you see the difference between those two situations?

    In one, Sally decided her quibbles were reason enough not to play with the group and she exiled herself. The GM didn't push her away but was firm that Sally's preferences were not to be respected because the GM and group did not agree with them. Sally is being intolerant of harmless behavior. (Which yes, you totally have the right to not associate with her because of her actions here)

    In the other situation, the GM would be pushing Sally out of the group not for her behavior but for thinking bad thoughts. The GM is being a bigot in this HYPOTHETICAL (because this situation didn't happen), he is intolerant of harmless behavior. (bad thoughts are not action).
    Last edited by Rhedyn; 2019-01-15 at 10:44 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Do you see the difference between those two situations?
    The differences are irrelevant. Sally has already made her bigotry clear, and there's nothing unreasonable about saying "I don't want to hang around with people who object to race mixing, or same-sex marriage, or to Jews existing, or anything like that." That freedom of association thing is really pretty simple.

    In the other situation, the GM would be pushing Sally out of the group not for her behavior but for thinking bad thoughts. The GM is being a bigot in this HYPOTHETICAL (because this situation didn't happen), he is intolerant of harmless behavior. (bad thoughts are not action).
    In other words, like Metahuman1 you think that only bigots like Sally get freedom of association, that if the GM refuses to associate with her based on her behavior, then the GM is 'crucifying' her and is a 'bigot' for exercising his freedom of association. But refusing to associate with bigots is not, in fact, bigotry. The weird idea that if you object to bigotry you are a bigot for not tolerating bigotry is patent nonsense; "I don't want to associate with someone who thinks I should be killed/enslaved/banished because of innate characteristics I was born with" is not the same thing as "I think you should be killed/enslaved/banished for innate characteristics you were born with". And yes, her asserting that the mere existence of LGBT is 'not PG' is an assertion that they should be, at the very least, banished from society.

    Further note: As the GM is not claiming to be psychic in this story, there is no way for him to know what thoughts she's thinking or to take any action based entirely on her thoughts. He would actually be responding to her ACTION of labeling a same-sex marriage as 'not PG'.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Note that bigotry is defined as intolerance of beliefs and ideas, not of groups or behaviors. So it is technically true that in this case the homophobe is not a bigot but the people who kick them out are. Of course, this also calls into question if bigotry is a bad thing.


    On another note, I am really curious if there are any updates to the situation that the OP is willing to share,
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Thumbs down Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverLordOcelot View Post
    The differences are irrelevant. Sally has already made her bigotry clear, and there's nothing unreasonable about saying "I don't want to hang around with people who object to race mixing, or same-sex marriage, or to Jews existing, or anything like that." That freedom of association thing is really pretty simple.
    I'm going to slightly shift sides, but I'm ending up halfway between you guys. In this hypothetical situation in which Sally backs down, and decides that her friends are more important than being a bigot, I do think the right thing to do is to keep her. I wouldn't tear apart someone who decided they didn't have the energy for that, but I think that if she is actually willing to make an effort, having friends who will support her while also making it real clear they don't support bigotry and will continue to hold the line means the possibility that Sally will learn better. Cutting her loose just reinforces her beliefs.

    Now, none of that applies if Sally doesn't make the first gesture. I don't think anyone is beyond changing. I do think that they have to demonstrate a desire to change before that is time worth spending.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverLordOcelot View Post
    He would actually be responding to her ACTION of labeling a same-sex marriage as 'not PG'.
    Hmmmmmmm

    I think you can argue that is an action. I wouldn't say it's anything to be too up in arms about. What is "PG" is a social norm or agreed consensus. That consensus is not going to shift back anytime soon. You aren't ethically obligated to make her stop thinking that, but if she brought it up all the time or decided that game was now "R-rated" and proceeded to play that way, while the game is in-fact "PG-rated" then that becomes a problem. She isn't acknowledging that her beliefs are uncommon and is acting on them in an unacceptable way.

    I think you need to have hard rules on what is and isn't tolerated and such rules need to be generally applicable. I personally strive to tolerate "harmless behavior". Idc if someone is homosexual. That behavior doesn't cause harm to others. I also don't care if someone is uncomfortable with homosexuals but doesn't act on those beliefs. It's the subsequent action that I have a problem with, which I personally do not include voting as an action to have a problem with (I consider much of the election process a measurement of what people are thinking and I believe in free-thought as a separate ideal).

    The problem I have with excluding people with thoughts that you do not personally agree with is because if no one tolerated such things, no social progress would have ever been made. I can live with that making some bigot's life easier if that keeps me open to future progress and prevents my own bigotry towards things I find offensive.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    I think you can argue that is an action. I wouldn't say it's anything to be too up in arms about. What is "PG" is a social norm or agreed consensus. That consensus is not going to shift back anytime soon.
    The thing is, you don't get to decide what bothers me, or the original DM. That's that pesky freedom of association thing again, none of us require the approval of the sort of person who tries to create safe spaces for outright bigots in order to decide who we want to game with or allow into our homes.

    I think you need to have hard rules on what is and isn't tolerated and such rules need to be generally applicable. I personally strive to tolerate "harmless behavior". Idc if someone is homosexual. That behavior doesn't cause harm to others. I also don't care if someone is uncomfortable with homosexuals but doesn't act on those beliefs.
    I don't regard people who actively try to erase any mentions of marriages like the ones my friends have and who object to their very existence to be engaged in 'harmless behavior'. I wonder if your attitude would be different if we were talking about people who wanted to revoke major parts of your life, and to remove your ability to live in society at large.

    I can live with that making some bigot's life easier if that keeps me open to future progress and prevents my own bigotry towards things I find offensive.
    I have no obligation to spend my personal free time hanging out with people who believe that my friends deserve to be imprisoned (or stoned to death, or burnt at the stake, or banished from society, or whatever). If you want to create safe spaces for bigots in your own time, I certainly can't stop you - but the whole 'people who don't want to hang out with bigots are the REAL bigots' claim is simply absurd.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    On another note, I am really curious if there are any updates to the situation that the OP is willing to share,
    Given how heated things are getting, no. I'd rather not provide fuel for the fire. I've got my answer and I thank all of you for your help in arriving to it, but this current topic is not something I feel comfortable immersing myself in.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Note that bigotry is defined as intolerance of beliefs and ideas, not of groups or behaviors. So it is technically true that in this case the homophobe is not a bigot but the people who kick them out are. Of course, this also calls into question if bigotry is a bad thing.
    Do you know Karl Poppers Paradox? The basis of a free and open society is the credo of "No tolerance towards the intolerant".

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lake Huron View Post
    Given how heated things are getting, no. I'd rather not provide fuel for the fire. I've got my answer and I thank all of you for your help in arriving to it, but this current topic is not something I feel comfortable immersing myself in.
    If that's how you feel, you should probably just unsubscribe from the thread entirely.

    But to everyone who's here...

    Would you play at a table with a homophobe? Take Sally out of the equation entirely. Let's make a hypothetical where one of the players at the table literally said "I hate the gays and think they all deserve to die and rot in hell."

    No ambiguity, no provocation, no nothing, just outright hatred of a group of people for their sexual preferences. Would you play at a table with them?
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    @JNAProductions:

    I hang out with a pretty bad crowd of people, including drug dealers, addicts and outright Neonazis. When I hit the pub after work, that's just the regulars and you have to socialize with them somehow.

    Yeah, we shake hands, are on a first-name basis, share cheers with a beer and some jokes, but I would never invite any of them to my home or engage in an activity like playing an RPG.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    I hang out with a pretty bad crowd of people, including drug dealers, addicts and outright Neonazis. When I hit the pub after work, that's just the regulars and you have to socialize with them somehow.
    I'm going to mostly disagree with this. Unless it is your job and you have no choice but to serve or work with them, then yes. But to actually socialize? No.

    At this point I've seen enough bigotry and spreading of hate from some of my own extended family that I'm not sure I would even acknowledge them, let alone socialize.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    @Florian: Is that the only pub in your area?
    I wouldn't want to hang out in a pub with neonazis, like at all.
    I like to think, that I rather wouldn't go to a pub at all.
    I had racists and homophobic people in my larger social circle for a time. And I just couldn't stay silent. So I wasn't safe. And I am hetero, cis, white, male and christian - can't even imagine how targeted people would feel.
    I work with young people and under those circumstances I work with those, but in my free time? No, never again!

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    I'm going to mostly disagree with this. Unless it is your job and you have no choice but to serve or work with them, then yes. But to actually socialize? No.

    At this point I've seen enough bigotry and spreading of hate from some of my own extended family that I'm not sure I would even acknowledge them, let alone socialize.
    Only pub in town. Downside of not living in a metropolis.

    Edit: The up-side is that they also have to live and socialize with me. Been quite some time since someone made casual racist jokes when I'm around.

    @kapow: I´ve a pronounced self-destructive streak and I don't care for my safety when it comes to my convictions. I'm pretty open about my political stance and membership in a certain political party, which ought to make me no friends, but I'm pretty well liked and respected as a member of the local community, and believe it or not, if trouble is brewing, I can count on some heavy-hitters to take my side in any conflict, more or less ending them in an instant.
    Last edited by Florian; 2019-01-15 at 05:21 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    There's nothing un-PG about a gay character, anymore than there's anything un-PG about heterosexual characters, so long as you aren't roleplaying explicit sex scenes. Her reasoning is a pretty transparent mask to rationalize her homophobia in a group where saying she doesn't like gay people might not fly. My advice is to tell her to either deal with it or leave. You don't need that kind of negative energy at your table. I wouldn't tolerate a player who gets angry that another player has a human character that isn't white, and this is no different.
    Why is it called homophobia, when it's clearly homo-disgust? It's not like people are really afraid of homosexuals. They just dislike them. Someone saying "Homsexuality is contagious and will surely infect us all unless..." would be homophobic. She just doesn't like the idea of homosexual behavior. That's not homophobic, phobia is fear.

    As to the op, I am going to agree with most here with one caveat: You probably should have said something along the lines of "I'm not going to ask him to change his character, but I will let him know it makes you uncomfortable and that he should not go into any form of detail. " Or something along those lines.

    There are a lot of people who disagree on many issues. This is a hot button issue, whether people here agree or not. Many people would rather it simply not come up. She, contrary to many here, did nothing wrong with the demanding of a change of character. She had an issue, it was a big enough issue that she didn't want it around her. She decided to leave because of it after you refused to intervene on her behalf. If she is now misrepresenting that, then yes she is in the wrong. I fail to see any form of compromise available here, either the character is gay or it is not.

    If it has split the table like this, I have a feeling there is more at work here. Is it possible the player in question knew of the girls dislike for gays and purposely tried to drive her away using it? Because that's not ok in my book.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Why is it called homophobia
    That's based on the conservative mindset. Most fear what they don't understand, the next step would be hatred.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Homophobia is, put simply, not just an opinion, and not something that we can casually agree or disagree with. The only thing required for evil to triumph, yadda yadda - moderates need not apply on this issue. And all of those assuming, for no good reason, that the player who wanted his character to be gay had some kind of hidden agenda... well, your bigotry is showing.

    You don't have to "See both sides" of an issue when one side is clearly and utterly wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    That's based on the conservative mindset. Most fear what they don't understand, the next step would be hatred.
    ...Leads to the dark side?
    Last edited by Unavenger; 2019-01-15 at 05:18 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    If that's how you feel, you should probably just unsubscribe from the thread entirely.
    Probably a good idea.

    I actually know "Sally" and "Larry" and I have an established history with them. Hearing them spoken of as broad archetypes or as players in some conspiracy is pretty gross and uncomfortable. I don't like to picture Larry as some backdoor politics player or Sally as some fascist ultra-conservative.

    I know I said I wouldn't add any information but this one point keeps coming up and I want to take a bullet to it here and now.

    Larry doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is the nicest, kindest, most open-minded and inclusive guy I have ever met. I could only aspire to be half the person he is. It is not possible for him to want to surreptitiously or underhandedly drive out another human being. The notion that he brought up his character's marriage as an intentional trap for Sally, aside from being a very long bow even without this clarification, is utterly incongruous with him as a person.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    That's based on the conservative mindset. Most fear what they don't understand, the next step would be hatred.
    I'll have to disagree. I don't understand women's mindsets on many things. I don't fear them for it.
    I don't understand the principles of quantum mechanics, I don't fear them.
    I don't understand other languages, I don't fear them.

    It is when there is an overt attempt to force things we dislike into our lives that anger comes about.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Am I the jerk in this situation?

    Sheriff: Locked for review. As a reminder, real world politics and religion are inappropriate topics on this Forum, even when they intersect gaming topics.
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