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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck
    Yes, count me on the side of "Any argument that can essentially be described as 'If it was X, someone would have explicitly said something about it being X by now' is not valid."
    Yes, this is why I don't take the over-analysis of Redcloak's "5 levels of cleric" seriously. If it casts spells as a sorcerer, he would not say "why don't you just gain a level of sorcerer, forget one of your current level 4 spells and get animate dead instead."

    Quote Originally Posted by thelivingmonkey
    If you feel the need to defend the Ha-naga by saying a level 20 orc is worse, shouldn't that tell you something about the viability of your candidate?
    No?

  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Given the behaviour of the ?Nightcrawler? in strip 1159, I think it's one of those. The lack of eyes is puzzling though.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  3. - Top - End - #873
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Not really; if everyone agrees that Rich is skilled enough to find story-fitting ways to make the reveal of absolutely anything interesting and satisfying (due to "awesome MitD character growth", etc.), it ceases to be a criterion. It wouldn't even disqualify therblewurkersaurus.
    Now who's nitpicking? I asked Keltest a question, and that question remains open, whether the question is "What do you think Rich means when he says the MitD's reveal will be 'satisfying,' then?" or "What do you think Rich means when he says the answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness will be satisfying, then?"

  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Now who's nitpicking? I asked Keltest a question, and that question remains open, whether the question is "What do you think Rich means when he says the MitD's reveal will be 'satisfying,' then?" or "What do you think Rich means when he says the answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness will be satisfying, then?"
    Sorry, I didn't actually see that particular question. The thread has been moving fast, and I worked most of today and yesterday.

    Anyway, I think there will be several layers of satisfaction to the reveal. One will be the narrative layer, where the reveal is a culmination of his character arc. To that end, it doesn't actually matter what the MITD will be.

    The visual layer is another, and probably the least important. I doubt it will look like something particularly ordinary or commonplace within the art.

    Thirdly, theres the dramatic layer. The actual scene itself will contribute to the level of satisfaction in the reveal. If he just stepped out of the shadows one day with no fanfare, that would be boring.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  5. - Top - End - #875
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Yes, this is why I don't take the over-analysis of Redcloak's "5 levels of cleric" seriously. If it casts spells as a sorcerer, he would not say "why don't you just gain a level of sorcerer, forget one of your current level 4 spells and get animate dead instead
    Except that's not a clue pointing at something, it's a clue of what can be eliminated; namely, since MitD can't help Redcloak with Animating Dead, any creature that can use that spell can be eliminated from consideration. Why can't he Animate Dead? What is the basic thing one needs to Animate Dead, which MitD lacks? 5 levels of the Cleric class, exactly as RC states. It's not really over-analysis so much as reading the comic and coming to the conclusion in front of us.

    As for the Escape scene, I tend to agree with you actually: Wish is the simplest explanation. However, in a comic where spells are cast by speaking their name, MitD didn't use the word "Wish"; he said "Escape", which isn't a recognized spell. So we're left to guess. And the monsters that have Wish as an ability don't fit the rest of the clues as well as I would like. So I'm left thinking it was a psionic or a magical Greater Teleport, for reasons that are already broken down in Page of the thread.

    A question: since Ha-Naga's fly, if MitD were one of them, why would he leave tracks for Belkar to follow at all? My earlier agreement that he fit the "weird tracks" clue was based on my picturing it slithering along and at the same time having people/objects wound up in its coils. Like the snake in Jungle Book could carry things, if I'm remembering that movie correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    I helped name a thread! MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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  6. - Top - End - #876
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Yes, this is why I don't take the over-analysis of Redcloak's "5 levels of cleric" seriously. If it casts spells as a sorcerer, he would not say "why don't you just gain a level of sorcerer, forget one of your current level 4 spells and get animate dead instead."
    The way I see it the level of specificity is important though. Redcloak did not say "Did you level up and learn Animate Dead?". He seems to be dang sure it will take 5 Cleric levels Before the MitD can do a thing like that. He could of course be wrong, but the fact that he was that specific seems to be a Heavy indication that the MitD does not have easy access to spells like that.

  7. - Top - End - #877
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    As for the Escape scene, I tend to agree with you actually: Wish is the simplest explanation. However, in a comic where spells are cast by speaking their name, MitD didn't use the word "Wish"; he said "Escape", which isn't a recognized spell. So we're left to guess. And the monsters that have Wish as an ability don't fit the rest of the clues as well as I would like. So I'm left thinking it was a psionic or a magical Greater Teleport, for reasons that are already broken down in Page of the thread.
    Precedence: Start of Darkness, the very first two panels:
    Panel 1: Teenage Xykon: I I-love you, B-Barky! C-come back!
    Panel 2: *ZAP*

    I don't know if that's enough to say it's only Sorcerer spells/powers that can be invoked without their name, but for me it's enough to lead to "ESCAPE" invoking the proper ability without naming it directly. I'm not going to look through every fight but I feel there were other times spells were cast without naming. In fact, near the middle of SoD with Lorien and near the end with the Durokan fight there are a couple of unnamed spells. And I found one online: the throne room. Xykon is flinging spells without name and it isn't an art choice since Redcloak had to ask which spells he was using. Interestingly, the Clerics are naming theirs once but Redcloak isn't even consistent with it.

    I'm not going to extrapolate to 'sorcerer spells don't need names', but I can get to 'sometimes they are named if only for the reader's benefit'. Enough so that MITD could have used a spell while shouting 'ESCAPE'.

    I also don't know if it's enough to show that if MITD has the ability to raise dead and if Redcloak knew that then the 'five levels' snark might have gone differently. (Actually, I don't think that at all, but wanted to point out the possibility since it occurred to me.)
    Last edited by Throknor; Yesterday at 09:18 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #878
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Precedence: Start of Darkness, the very first two panels:
    Panel 1: Teenage Xykon: I I-love you, B-Barky! C-come back!
    Panel 2: *ZAP*

    I don't know if that's enough to say it's only Sorcerer spells/powers that can be invoked without their name, but for me it's enough to lead to "ESCAPE" invoking the proper ability without naming it directly. I'm not going to look through every fight but I feel there were other times spells were cast without naming. In fact, near the middle of SoD with Lorien and near the end with the Durokan fight there are a couple of unnamed spells. And I found one online: the throne room. Xykon is flinging spells without name and it isn't an art choice since Redcloak had to ask which spells he was using. Interestingly, the Clerics are naming theirs once but Redcloak isn't even consistent with it.

    I'm not going to extrapolate to 'sorcerer spells don't need names', but I can get to 'sometimes they are named if only for the reader's benefit'. Enough so that MITD could have used a spell while shouting 'ESCAPE'.

    I also don't know if it's enough to show that if MITD has the ability to raise dead and if Redcloak knew that then the 'five levels' snark might have gone differently. (Actually, I don't think that at all, but wanted to point out the possibility since it occurred to me.)
    That was 4-year old Xykon, displaying the most compassion heís felt for another creature in his life.

  9. - Top - End - #879
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Sorry, I didn't actually see that particular question. The thread has been moving fast, and I worked most of today and yesterday.

    Anyway, I think there will be several layers of satisfaction to the reveal. One will be the narrative layer, where the reveal is a culmination of his character arc. To that end, it doesn't actually matter what the MITD will be.

    The visual layer is another, and probably the least important. I doubt it will look like something particularly ordinary or commonplace within the art.

    Thirdly, theres the dramatic layer. The actual scene itself will contribute to the level of satisfaction in the reveal. If he just stepped out of the shadows one day with no fanfare, that would be boring.
    OK, I was just curious. Because I do think the narrative layer you describe ties into the species as I've suggested. (Or, at least, that I think the creature that would best fit mechanically also has a strong thematic tie to its species.)

  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    A question: since Ha-Naga's fly, if MitD were one of them, why would he leave tracks for Belkar to follow at all? My earlier agreement that he fit the "weird tracks" clue was based on my picturing it slithering along and at the same time having people/objects wound up in its coils. Like the snake in Jungle Book could carry things, if I'm remembering that movie correctly.
    So, let's say that the Ha-Naga is Large, or even Huge, but it can fit itself within its cage or under the umbrella if it coils itself tightly. Now, when the MitD is moving while under the umbrella, it can't slither like it normally would since that would disobey its order to stay in the darkness, so instead it flies just off the ground while remaining coiled.

    On a completely different topic, and sorry if this has been discussed before, the flavour text for the Hagunemnon has the following:

    Hagunemnons travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinary abilities to assume. Their xenophobia generally results in their attempting to slay other beings after copying them.
    So while the abilities description says that Hagunemnons can basically copy any EX ability, the flavour suggests they have to learn it first. If the MiTD has basically been in solitude for most of its young life and has only been exposed to a limited number of creatures during its time with Team Evil, it may not have the arsenal of abilities and forms that a fully-grown Hagunemnon would have. Now, I'm not sure what impact this would have, but its possible the MitD only learned "Escape" fairly recently before the Escape scene, like possibly when retaking Xykon's Tower.

    Finally, I'm a bit late to this discussion, but the standard Huge Glabrezu is listed as being 15 feet tall, and 5,500 pounds. While I can kind of accept a Large Glabrezu barely fitting in the cage, even shrunken a size category, this thing is way too heavy for Redcloak to carry.
    Last edited by monomer; Yesterday at 04:36 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #881
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    What's the source for that flavor text?

  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    What's the source for that flavor text?
    Quick and dirty google search says Epic Level Handbook.
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  13. - Top - End - #883
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Finally, I'm a bit late to this discussion, but the standard Huge Glabrezu is listed as being 15 feet tall, and 5,500 pounds. While I can kind of accept a Large Glabrezu barely fitting in the cage, even shrunken a size category, this thing is way too heavy for Redcloak to carry.
    The medieval carpentry discussion concluded that the cage alone is too heavy for RC to carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quick and dirty google search says Epic Level Handbook.
    That is correct. Now, the Epic Level Handbook is for 3.0, but going to 3.5 should only affect the mechanics, and not the flavour. Here are a couple of other choice quotes:

    Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing.
    Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another Hagunemnon can understand it. They can speak and understand the language of any other creature.
    So while the first confirms that Protean babies exist (not that I think that this has ever been called into question), the second kind of breaks the Big Game Hunter scene, though maybe they assume Hagunemnons normally only speak in their own crazy language.

    And on the subject of languages, while the SRD and the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook don't state what languages the Ha-Naga speaks, Serpent Kingdoms has the Faerunian Ha-Naga (which is basically the same) speaking Common and Abyssal, and in fact it looks like every other Naga speaks Common, so I don't see how this fits with the Hunters being surprised the MitD was talking in Common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The medieval carpentry discussion concluded that the cage alone is too heavy for RC to carry.

    Grey Wolf
    Heh, yeah, I remember that thread. I can accept The Giant not knowing how much a cage weighs, and assuming Redcloak, being a fairly high-leveled character, would have the strength to lift it as well as a monster. But going from that to lifting, what, something like at least 550 lbs if we're very liberal with the weight reduction (and probably closer to a full ton or more), is a little too much to handwave away.
    Last edited by monomer; Yesterday at 04:53 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #885
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    assuming Redcloak, being a fairly high-leveled character, would have the strength to lift it as well as a monster.
    Being high level doesn't give extra strength unless you invest in it, and RC is so uninvested in strength he doesn't even carry a melee weapon. More likely, he put all his points in Wisdom, so he can cast high level spells better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  16. - Top - End - #886
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The medieval carpentry discussion concluded that the cage alone is too heavy for RC to carry.

    Grey Wolf
    That discussion may well have been this series of threadsí finest moment even if it was pretty interminable.

    Weight is a funny issue. Box + virtually any Large (to say nothing of Huge) creature is way too heavy for RC to lift barring some major-league assumptions (beyond merely things like casting Bulls Strength on himself off-scree) which is a plus for things like the Neh-Thallgu (however thats spelled) which are weightless or the ANB which the fluff says is way lighter than it should reasonably be. That having been said, would being able to levitate or fly help?

    On the one hand, its flying. On the other hand, its still in the box. It may or may not have mass or be exerting force on the bottom of the box.
    Last edited by Crusher; Yesterday at 05:40 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #887
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    On the one hand, its flying. On the other hand, its still in the box. It may or may not have mass or be exerting force on the bottom of the box.
    It's magic, so sure, it might be utterly weightless. But if it wasn't fully magic, and was still flying through physics and it is heavier-than-air (so maybe not the floating eyeball thing, which might have helium inside it or something), the weight of it inside the box would still be equal whether it was flying or not at the time, because the force exerted to keep yourself aloft still gets carried to the bottom of the box as weight (it is the classic "do a million fly still weight down a plane if they never land anywhere for the entire flight" problem).

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; Yesterday at 05:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  18. - Top - End - #888
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    it is the classic "do a million fly still weight down a plane if they never land anywhere for the entire flight" problem.

    Grey Wolf
    That problem turns out to be two different problems. Modern airliners have enclosed atmospheres, and so flies in flight in that would be included in the weight of the plane's contents, as would the air. However, if an aeroplane had holes for windows, so the air inside was continuous with the air outside, flies in flight in that situation would not be included in the weight of the contents of the aircraft, they'd get blown out by the wind pretty soon, but while they were inside they would not count toward the weight of the contents of the aircraft unless and until they landed inside the aeroplane.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  19. - Top - End - #889
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    What thread number covered medieval carpentry?

  20. - Top - End - #890
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    What thread number covered medieval carpentry?
    There's a link to the start of the conversation in the First Post under MitD's Characteristics>>>Weight

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...9#post13829249

  21. - Top - End - #891
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Thanks (thanks thanks thanks)

  22. - Top - End - #892
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Over six years after pointing this out, I happened to stumble upon a pallet so heavy it was essentially unusable - a hardwood pallet (the anecdote was told in more detail last thread), the first I ever saw - and immediately thought of this thread. (In fact, I think that's why I came back to it, after a few years of relative absence.)
    Same here! But in my case, it's the assumption that the "default" wood of choice for a crate would be something as precious and hard to work as oak that got my fightin' blood up, as someone who's been running a carpentry-heavy business for over a decade.

    I have also noticed over the years that it's interesting to see which wood the crates and pallets are made from, depending on where they're from. We have several suppliers in Texas, their crates are always in Southern yellow pine. One California supplier sends us pallets made out of redwood. Around here pallets are pretty much always spruce.

    Using hardwood for a crate struck me as... let's say, definitely nonstandard.


    Anyway, as we agreed back then, regardless, Redcloak shouldn't have been able to lift the crate in any case, so it doesn't really tell us anything. (Did any of this change since then?)
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Hello! New here (to both D&D and the forum, not the comic.) I know I might not fit in with all the professionals here, or maybe somebody has had this idea, but in think about MitD...so the gods donít know about the planet in the rift, right? So that means they arenít all-knowing.

    So what if MitD has some sort of relation to the Greek Gods? I think the Western Pantheon? I dunno. Itís generally assumed that he is extremely powerful, maybe god-tier.

    So just tossing the idea out. Maybe it can find ground, maybe not. And yes, I know there are a lot of holes in the theory, like him having parents or the lack of followers that a God would need to survive the destruction of a world, but itís just a thought.

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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerrin View Post
    Hello! New here (to both D&D and the forum, not the comic.) I know I might not fit in with all the professionals here, or maybe somebody has had this idea, but in think about MitD...so the gods donít know about the planet in the rift, right? So that means they arenít all-knowing.

    So what if MitD has some sort of relation to the Greek Gods? I think the Western Pantheon? I dunno. Itís generally assumed that he is extremely powerful, maybe god-tier.

    So just tossing the idea out. Maybe it can find ground, maybe not. And yes, I know there are a lot of holes in the theory, like him having parents or the lack of followers that a God would need to survive the destruction of a world, but itís just a thought.
    A few problems with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas

    These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

    Deity

    First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:
    • If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks, which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
    • They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
    • Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
    • Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.
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    Default Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A few problems with that.
    Ah, I see. Again, new to D&D, but I should have remembered the immunity to Mind Control at the very least. Thanks for the clarification, and have a good day!

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