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2019-02-04, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-04, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-04, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.
a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.
But I agree with it as being the best fit for the data we have. I think that it's mythological background is more important then it's stat block, however. But we will see, and hopefully soon.
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2019-02-04, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-04, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-02-04, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Actually, yes. This is a comic. Its art is as important as the story. I can't even image inside an artist's mind, a creation that is not how he is. I bet that when the Giants decided what the MitD is, he started by what the MitD was: middle/large (but less big than how he's supposed to be), 2 frontal eyes, maybe 4 legs, able to hold an umbrella.
The one things that the MitD by the books and our monster differs may be the size. The Monster may be one or more size class less than his monster manual's entry says. But this is made to fit how the monster is drawn, not the opposite. For me, personally, the opposite is unbelievable.
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2019-02-04, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-02-04 at 05:28 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-02-04, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-04, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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2019-02-04, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-02-04, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Let me just clarify this -
A protean cannot cast Wish as a spell like ability with it's shape change ability, I wasn't trying to say that it could.
I was saying, for sake of argument, anything that can cast Wish more often then once in it's life time, can fit the description of MitD by repeated application of casting wish. It can become immune to damage and blah blah blah. I don't think it is a Teleporking Orc. I don't think it has a template applied to it. But the fact that wish exists within this universe means that it could be plausible, even if it is unlikely or blatently contentious, to have an otherwise nondescript creature (Such as a gnome) with this one ability to fit all the marks as it wishes too.
Likewise, a Protean may not be able to planeshift another creature to a place on the same plane. But Umbral Bolt can move another creature to a new place. Proteans don't have Umbral Bolt, but that doesn't matter, they can adopt those traits.
Arguing against the Protean is arguing against any possible monster (Or at least their stat blocks and extraordinary abilities) within the universe of OotS. Not even all monsters in D&D, all possible monsters in OotS. Suppose there was a Demonstrative Gnome in Rich's world that can Telepork as an extraordinary ability. The Protean can copy that, even though it is not of OUR understanding of D&D. The line between what Rich made and what exists is blurred.
Further, the fact that Grey Wolf and others have to remind people that Supernatural and Spell like abilities aren't copied by Proteans begs the question if The Giant was aware of this when he was writing the story himself. The Giant has made mistakes in the past, and while he is motivated to keep MitD as RAW as possible, he can't ask questions he didn't know he needed to ask.
I think, if he had accidentally went out of bounds with MitD, he would have said something on the boards at least, or foreshadowed it in the comic, but it can not be eliminated as a possibility until we have a reveal.
This all having been said... I still think Protean is the best fit. I just wanted to point out that when a character is able to change their abilities to match other things (whether Wish or Shapechange), they have a leg up on other contestants by nature of how they work.
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2019-02-04, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2019-02-04, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-04, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yeah, I don't actually think the art contradicts MitD being a Protean, either. And I think if it is a Protean, we'll find out why the eyes don't move. I think if Rich wanted MitD to be a Protean, he'd come up with a suitable explanation, not scrap a major character arc.
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2019-02-04, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-05, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
The umbrella was introduced after the decision about the species was made around strip 100. Before that point, the MitD had just been hanging out in shadows. I suppose the placement of the eyes could still be counted as an indication of size but it would depend on the placement of the head too.
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2019-02-05, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-05, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I am not that happy with Protean. "Best fit" is not so much a product of occam's razor as being the smallest common denominator.
Sure, a round peg will fit in a star shaped hole but it misses taking full advantage of all the clues.
The current methodology is to reject any suggestion if it fail to explain one of the big scenes. The problem with this is, of course, that it is RB that actually decides whether MitD does that or not. This applies especially to the cirkus scene.
Another approach to the problem would be to list the number of attributes that would fit for a suggested monster vs does that don't.
Since there are more clues than just the big scenes, and with no auto reject, we would have a more powerful tool to use.
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2019-02-05, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-05, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
No problem, read it instead as sorted under "Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas".
Still, the the big scenes is currently a treshold for the viability of new ideas.
I suppose i suggest a point based system of some type. This would require drawing up a list of all the clues so that points could be assigned.
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2019-02-05, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
No it is not. As evidence by, say, every creature Crusher proposes. There is no threshold and you are obviously determined to pretend there is for whatever reason.
And I have repeatedly rejected the point classification approach as increasing my workload for no gain. Instead of me having to put up with people who are convinced their idea needs to be in the FBS category, I have to put up with even more people convinced that their idea should get more points than it did. Even if that was avoided (and it wouldn't, but lets assume), it would just mean having to create a dozen categories of creatures, from 0 points to 10 or whatever many points you'd want. And that's not even going into the ridiculous idea that anyone can fairly and objectively assign those points in the first place.
As I've said before, I'd sooner get rid of the FBS category than stratify suggestions in such an absurd and artificial way. If it bothers you that I like to set 6-12 creatures as examples of the kind of creature we are looking for, then suggest getting rid of it. But opening the floor to eternal bickering over how many points each of the 150 suggestions should get is not something I am willing to entertain.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-05, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Lets be clear here, there is no "winner" in this thread. We aren't submitting a formal guess to some agency, and we don't get any prize beyond our own satisfaction for getting it right. Everything about the thread is simply to present information and logic. If a creature doesn't fit the big scenes, or has some other problem, we cant stop you from guessing it anyway. In your own private opinions, if you don't want to use our categories, fine. In spite of the arguing, at the end of the day the actual first posts deal very little in opinion, Grey Wolf's or otherwise. We just want to direct peoples thought processes so they have the most helpful information to work with.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-02-05, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)
Meh. I picture Lien's reaction as "why should it not be that? There are many strange and obscure creatures in the world."
That works. Mainly because of the "embodiment of chaos" part.
Does that mean that a protean must have a chaotic alignment, in the same way as a demon must have an evil alignment? Do we think the MitD acts like someone with a chaotic alignment? Off the top of my head, he sometimes acts chaotic (tacos etc) but often follows orders without even questioning them.Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.
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2019-02-05, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. You may disagree, but I would find it unbelievable. All this explanation needs is for Rich to find it plausible, not you. And it is merely an example. Thousands of others exist.
That's an equivalent description for a slaad, not a protean.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-05, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a TV trope for characters which are both powerful and meek (Edit: the trope may be "gentle giant"). Of course, we don't know what Rich finds plausible and we can postulate that if there's at least one person here who finds it plausible then Rich could also find it plausible. Alas, then O-Chul's statement doesn't help us at all.
But if I find an explanation plausible, it would help me to believe that it can be a protean. You may not care at all about that; but I think I'm not the only one who uses this thread to personally weigh the probabilities of the MitD being one creature or another.
That statement doesn't help me either. Hmm, maybe it wasn't intended to be helpful, but to make me stop asking for an example that I find believable?
Ah, that makes sense. Pity.
Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.Last edited by Joerg; 2019-02-05 at 01:41 PM.
Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.
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2019-02-05, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Some people in real life keep dangerous exotic pets, including such venomous snakes that could one-shot the owner with a bite. But I don't think Xykon or Redcloak are keeping him as a pet. I don't know what Redcloak thinks, but Xykon seems to consider the MitD a powerful weapon or a high-level minion.
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2019-02-05, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-05, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-05, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-02-05, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2