MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or, for instance "It's one of the eldest forms of an embodiment of chaos, over 300 years old at the least".

FWIW, I'm not saying similar descriptions can't be done for others; I am merely addressing the claim that there is nothing unbelievable about a protean because that was what Joerg explicitly requested.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I'll be here all week.

[Son of A Lich!]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

But I agree with it as being the best fit for the data we have. I think that it's mythological background is more important then it's stat block, however. But we will see, and hopefully soon.

[Peelee]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list

Except for how a gnome gets Wish at will, of course.

[Fyraltari]

Except for how a gnome gets Wish at will, of course.

He Wished for it?

[Synesthesy]

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?

Actually, yes. This is a comic. Its art is as important as the story. I can't even image inside an artist's mind, a creation that is not how he is. I bet that when the Giants decided what the MitD is, he started by what the MitD was: middle/large (but less big than how he's supposed to be), 2 frontal eyes, maybe 4 legs, able to hold an umbrella.

The one things that the MitD by the books and our monster differs may be the size. The Monster may be one or more size class less than his monster manual's entry says. But this is made to fit how the monster is drawn, not the opposite. For me, personally, the opposite is unbelievable.

[Peelee]

He Wished for it?

Said wish goes above described power of Wish, and invokes the "trying for more is dangerous" clause. Gnome is now a Protean.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

It can't.

For example: a protean cannot cast wish. Not even if this wish-as-an-at-will-sp gnome species exists.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

Grey Wolf

Also:

"Monster-San, remember when I told you that your heart and mind make you what you really are? Turns out, that was way more literally true than even I expected."

[woweedd]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

But I agree with it as being the best fit for the data we have. I think that it's mythological background is more important then it's stat block, however. But we will see, and hopefully soon.

What do you mean by “mythological connection”?

[Son of A Lich!]

It can't.

For example: a protean cannot cast wish. Not even if this wish-as-an-at-will-sp gnome species exists.

Grey Wolf

Let me just clarify this -

A protean cannot cast Wish as a spell like ability with it's shape change ability, I wasn't trying to say that it could.

I was saying, for sake of argument, anything that can cast Wish more often then once in it's life time, can fit the description of MitD by repeated application of casting wish. It can become immune to damage and blah blah blah. I don't think it is a Teleporking Orc. I don't think it has a template applied to it. But the fact that wish exists within this universe means that it could be plausible, even if it is unlikely or blatently contentious, to have an otherwise nondescript creature (Such as a gnome) with this one ability to fit all the marks as it wishes too.

Likewise, a Protean may not be able to planeshift another creature to a place on the same plane. But Umbral Bolt can move another creature to a new place. Proteans don't have Umbral Bolt, but that doesn't matter, they can adopt those traits.

Arguing against the Protean is arguing against any possible monster (Or at least their stat blocks and extraordinary abilities) within the universe of OotS. Not even all monsters in D&D, all possible monsters in OotS. Suppose there was a Demonstrative Gnome in Rich's world that can Telepork as an extraordinary ability. The Protean can copy that, even though it is not of OUR understanding of D&D. The line between what Rich made and what exists is blurred.

Further, the fact that Grey Wolf and others have to remind people that Supernatural and Spell like abilities aren't copied by Proteans begs the question if The Giant was aware of this when he was writing the story himself. The Giant has made mistakes in the past, and while he is motivated to keep MitD as RAW as possible, he can't ask questions he didn't know he needed to ask.

I think, if he had accidentally went out of bounds with MitD, he would have said something on the boards at least, or foreshadowed it in the comic, but it can not be eliminated as a possibility until we have a reveal.

This all having been said... I still think Protean is the best fit. I just wanted to point out that when a character is able to change their abilities to match other things (whether Wish or Shapechange), they have a leg up on other contestants by nature of how they work.

[halfeye]

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?

Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

[Peelee]

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

Conversely, I wouldn't see it as a lie at all. I'd completely agree with what he said.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I don't actually think the art contradicts MitD being a Protean, either. And I think if it is a Protean, we'll find out why the eyes don't move. I think if Rich wanted MitD to be a Protean, he'd come up with a suitable explanation, not scrap a major character arc.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

...

And yet, you have guessed that MitD is an earth mass black hole, an astronomical phenomenon not known for having eyes at all.

Sorry, but I find your selectiveness "that would make Rich a liar" rather biased.

Grey Wolf

[Quebbster]

Actually, yes. This is a comic. Its art is as important as the story. I can't even image inside an artist's mind, a creation that is not how he is. I bet that when the Giants decided what the MitD is, he started by what the MitD was: middle/large (but less big than how he's supposed to be), 2 frontal eyes, maybe 4 legs, able to hold an umbrella.

The one things that the MitD by the books and our monster differs may be the size. The Monster may be one or more size class less than his monster manual's entry says. But this is made to fit how the monster is drawn, not the opposite. For me, personally, the opposite is unbelievable.

The umbrella was introduced after the decision about the species was made around strip 100. Before that point, the MitD had just been hanging out in shadows. I suppose the placement of the eyes could still be counted as an indication of size but it would depend on the placement of the head too.

[Synesthesy]

The umbrella was introduced after the decision about the species was made around strip 100. Before that point, the MitD had just been hanging out in shadows. I suppose the placement of the eyes could still be counted as an indication of size but it would depend on the placement of the head too.

It is not only the placement of the eyes, but their own size. They are the same size the Ogres' eyes, bigger then Redcloak's.

[Hardcore]

I am not that happy with Protean. "Best fit" is not so much a product of occam's razor as being the smallest common denominator.
Sure, a round peg will fit in a star shaped hole but it misses taking full advantage of all the clues.

The current methodology is to reject any suggestion if it fail to explain one of the big scenes. The problem with this is, of course, that it is RB that actually decides whether MitD does that or not. This applies especially to the cirkus scene.


Another approach to the problem would be to list the number of attributes that would fit for a suggested monster vs does that don't.
Since there are more clues than just the big scenes, and with no auto reject, we would have a more powerful tool to use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The current methodology is to reject any suggestion if it fail to explain one of the big scenes.

No it isn't. Please stop misrepresenting the methodology of this thread, especially if you want me to listen to any suggestions you think you might have for its improvement.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

No problem, read it instead as sorted under "Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas".
Still, the the big scenes is currently a treshold for the viability of new ideas.

I suppose i suggest a point based system of some type. This would require drawing up a list of all the clues so that points could be assigned.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No problem, read it instead as sorted under "Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas".
Still, the the big scenes is currently a treshold for the viability of new ideas.

No it is not. As evidence by, say, every creature Crusher proposes. There is no threshold and you are obviously determined to pretend there is for whatever reason.

I suppose i suggest a point based system of some type. This would require drawing up a list of all the clues so that points could be assigned.

And I have repeatedly rejected the point classification approach as increasing my workload for no gain. Instead of me having to put up with people who are convinced their idea needs to be in the FBS category, I have to put up with even more people convinced that their idea should get more points than it did. Even if that was avoided (and it wouldn't, but lets assume), it would just mean having to create a dozen categories of creatures, from 0 points to 10 or whatever many points you'd want. And that's not even going into the ridiculous idea that anyone can fairly and objectively assign those points in the first place.

As I've said before, I'd sooner get rid of the FBS category than stratify suggestions in such an absurd and artificial way. If it bothers you that I like to set 6-12 creatures as examples of the kind of creature we are looking for, then suggest getting rid of it. But opening the floor to eternal bickering over how many points each of the 150 suggestions should get is not something I am willing to entertain.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Lets be clear here, there is no "winner" in this thread. We aren't submitting a formal guess to some agency, and we don't get any prize beyond our own satisfaction for getting it right. Everything about the thread is simply to present information and logic. If a creature doesn't fit the big scenes, or has some other problem, we cant stop you from guessing it anyway. In your own private opinions, if you don't want to use our categories, fine. In spite of the arguing, at the end of the day the actual first posts deal very little in opinion, Grey Wolf's or otherwise. We just want to direct peoples thought processes so they have the most helpful information to work with.

[Joerg]

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)

"it is a creature too obscure for me to name. It is nothing and everything at the same time."

Meh. I picture Lien's reaction as "why should it not be that? There are many strange and obscure creatures in the world."

Or, for instance "It's one of the eldest forms of an embodiment of chaos, over 300 years old at the least".

That works. Mainly because of the "embodiment of chaos" part.

Does that mean that a protean must have a chaotic alignment, in the same way as a demon must have an evil alignment? Do we think the MitD acts like someone with a chaotic alignment? Off the top of my head, he sometimes acts chaotic (tacos etc) but often follows orders without even questioning them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)

No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. You may disagree, but I would find it unbelievable. All this explanation needs is for Rich to find it plausible, not you. And it is merely an example. Thousands of others exist.

That works. Mainly because of the "embodiment of chaos" part.

That's an equivalent description for a slaad, not a protean.

Grey Wolf

[Joerg]

No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. You may disagree, but I would find it unbelievable. All this explanation needs is for Rich to find it plausible, not you.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a TV trope for characters which are both powerful and meek (Edit: the trope may be "gentle giant"). Of course, we don't know what Rich finds plausible and we can postulate that if there's at least one person here who finds it plausible then Rich could also find it plausible. Alas, then O-Chul's statement doesn't help us at all.

But if I find an explanation plausible, it would help me to believe that it can be a protean. You may not care at all about that; but I think I'm not the only one who uses this thread to personally weigh the probabilities of the MitD being one creature or another.

And it is merely an example. Thousands of others exist.

That statement doesn't help me either. Hmm, maybe it wasn't intended to be helpful, but to make me stop asking for an example that I find believable?

That's an equivalent description for a slaad, not a protean.

Ah, that makes sense. Pity.

Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.

[b_jonas]

No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet.

Some people in real life keep dangerous exotic pets, including such venomous snakes that could one-shot the owner with a bite. But I don't think Xykon or Redcloak are keeping him as a pet. I don't know what Redcloak thinks, but Xykon seems to consider the MitD a powerful weapon or a high-level minion.

[woweedd]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a TV trope for characters which are both powerful and meek (Edit: the trope may be "gentle giant"). Of course, we don't know what Rich finds plausible and we can postulate that if there's at least one person here who finds it plausible then Rich could also find it plausible. Alas, then O-Chul's statement doesn't help us at all.

But if I find an explanation plausible, it would help me to believe that it can be a protean. You may not care at all about that; but I think I'm not the only one who uses this thread to personally weigh the probabilities of the MitD being one creature or another.


That statement doesn't help me either. Hmm, maybe it wasn't intended to be helpful, but to make me stop asking for an example that I find believable?



Ah, that makes sense. Pity.

Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.

Sladds are Chaotic Neutral outsiders, beings of pure Chaos. That said, by Vanilla D&D, it is possible, although rare, for an Outsider to change alignment, albeit usually only one only two step, with some excwpetions.

[Ruck]

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)

Huh? This reads backwards to me. You're saying it's more believable that MitD is capable of one-shotting Xykon and Redcloak than it is that he's not?

[Keltest]

Huh? This reads backwards to me. You're saying it's more believable that MitD is capable of one-shotting Xykon and Redcloak than it is that he's not?

I believe the idea is that the MITD being a marshmallow is what makes it being powerful plausible. If he were actually aggressive and assertive, then he wouldn't be hanging around with Xykon and Redcloak at all, or at the very least would not be taking orders from them.

[Peelee]

I am not that happy with Protean. "Best fit" is not so much a product of occam's razor as being the smallest common denominator.
Sure, a round peg will fit in a star shaped hole but it misses taking full advantage of all the clues.

OF course, we don't know the shape of the hole, or we'd know the peg. The round peg to me fits better than any other peg, so as far as I can tell, the hole is more likely to be round than star-shaped.