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2019-01-14, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-14, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2019-01-14, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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2019-01-14, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
I don't get upset by someone choosing to play a tier 1 class.
But I do have a problem when that same someone complains that someone else is playing an unoptimized character.
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2019-01-14, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
To be fair, outliers are a problem whether they're ahead or behind. It's one thing if the player doesn't know what they're doing and can be assisted in making a better character that fits the same fantasy, but if you deliberately make a sub-optimal character while everyone else is making reasonable characters, you're the problem in that group.
Last edited by Crake; 2019-01-14 at 05:59 PM.
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-01-14, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Yep, good point. I personally don't like when someone messes too much with multi-classing to give flavor to a character. You don't need to pick levels in bard for your cleric worshipping a god of arts, domain spells and skills are usually enough to give characterization, you could as well play a high dex, high cha cleric and be effective without rejecting your PCs concept.
(BTW it depends on apl, if the adventure is a one shot 7th level bard/cleric is welcome, if it's a campaign 1 to 20 at some point you'll play a broken character)
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2019-01-14, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
No because if there's a problem it's usually the player being "That Person" and not necessarily the class. In that case you can either talk to the person and solve it or you can't and you don't play with them anymore.
No the problem is usually on my side where I can look at the other character and see that they can do my job to relatively equal effectiveness at a cost, whatever that cost may be, and engage in the world in various ways I never really could barring DM fiat. Which isn't the best feeling.
You don't envy the class that your fellow party members are playing, you envy character it allows them to play.Last edited by VoltsofEight; 2019-01-14 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Grammar errors
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2019-01-15, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
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2019-01-15, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
A dwarf paladin is not actually the worst pick.
You will be tough and the only thing that actually gets better with charisma is saves, the boost to attack rolls to smite and the hit points healed by lay on hands.
Having a smaller lay on hands pool is not a really big problem, the save penalty is in part compensated by the +2 to all the saves against spells that dwarves gets and the +2 to saves against poisons means that most of the stuff of the game will be not so hard to save against and the lower smite attack rolls is not a that big problem either.
On the other hand playing an half orc paladin is worse because you lose charisma and intelligence and do not get a ton of cool things like a dwarf(some people consider +2 to strength is worth a lot but at that point you are better off taking human and having a bonus feat since both of those are comparably valuable for a class as feat starved as paladin).
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2019-01-15, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Montreal, QC
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Eh, as long as you're reasonably competent at what you do (relative to your other party members), there's no reason not to pick a particular race/class combo. Now, that's a broad statement that can mean different things in different groups, but a half-orc paladin isn't automatically toxic trash. For starters, intelligence is often already dumped by paladins, and losing a bit more doesn't really hurt that much. Also, you can just optimize a bit more than you otherwise would as (for example) a human paladin, and make up the power difference that way. You're not condemning your character just by not picking the most mechanically advantageous race for their particular class. Want your next bard to be a half-orc? Sure, go for it. I'm sure it'll be a memorable character to play.
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2019-01-15, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2019-01-15, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Montreal, QC
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
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2019-01-15, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
That doesn't mean the dwarf paladin's charisma should be 8 either. Sub-optimal is not inherently a bad thing, but you need competency. If using Point Buy it doesn't cost the player anything. Using Pathfinder numbers, non dwarf paladins might pay 10 for 16 CH and 5 for 14 CO. A dwarf paladin buys the same thing and gets 14 CH 16 CO as a result because of racial modifiers. A 14 CH is decent considering the CH penalty. Using 25 Point Buy he probably bought 16 ST for a final array of ST 16 DX 10 CO 16 IN 10 WI 12 CH 14, which is not terrible for a paladin.
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2019-01-15, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2019-01-15, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
There are dwarf variants that don't get a cha penalty that you could play instead. "Dwarf paladin" isn't suboptimal, hell, even deliberately playing a low cha paladin isn't necessarily sub optimal, as long as you can pull your weight with decent strength, AC, and hp. It's the people who do stuff like pick fighter 20 when other people are playing tome of battle classes, and pick stuff like 10 different weapon focuses when they only use one weapon the whole game.
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-01-15, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Wow. this thread is of much gold. Just some of the examples:
Spoiler: Gold Mine
Just so many comments (these are just some of the many I saw) that make me proud of the Playground.
My general reaction to someone wanting play a tier 1 is as follows: either they know what they're doing, in which case they'll show just how well that they know the more important player skill of knowing how to play well with others, or they don't know what they're doing, in which case the character will likely die quickly. So, win?
One thing I did want to question, though:
So, I've played that character. If your party are idiots, why would it bother you that somebody is playing a character that would call them out on being idiots? If you don't call people out on their stupidity, how can they learn? How can they have character growth?
(I believe Loki has a major defining moment when Thor tells him something like, "life is change. You want to stay the god of mischief, but you could be so much more".)
Why does it bother you that PCs can resent other PCs being dumb and getting in messes again and again?Last edited by Quertus; 2019-01-15 at 08:09 PM.
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2019-01-15, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Who said the party was actually being idiots? It's the person doing the helping just saying they are idiots for being in the mess they're in. It could be the planned encounter the DM set up but Jerkface went lone wolf exploring an area where nothing in particular happens while the party goes to the Plot Room and face its Monster. Since they're a party member down they are having difficulty so Jerkface has to come back to "save them again".
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2019-01-15, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-01-15, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
I actually had a player who insisted on staying behind when the rest of the party returned to their ship.
He stayed behind. Alone. In a forest that hey knew had a dragon that was angry at him.
It ended about as well as you'd expect.
Spoiler: Spoiler
He got kidnapped by an Ethereal Doppelganger.
Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-15 at 10:45 PM.
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2019-01-16, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
It does not bother me when my friend decides that his or her character will defend mine with superior abilities. And that's what playing an optimized character means.
It does not bother me when my friend is excited about playing a specific idea, even if it costs him or her power. And that's what playing an under-powered character means.
It ... doesn't bother me when my friends want to have fun. It just doesn't.
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2019-01-16, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
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2019-01-17, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Craig, Co
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Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
I have only seen one person play a Tier 1 class to its full potential. I don't think anyone will play with them anymore. So generally it is not a problem.
A slightly bigger problem has been poor players playing Tier 3 classes and complaining that they can't do anything. While in that same game I was playing a straight fighter and having fun.
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2019-01-17, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Could you please be more specific about what encounters have been solved with 1-st level and 0-level spells?
I just started an adventure with a 2th level druid in a group with a cleric and tier 4 characters (fairly optimized though), I haven't done anything yet, but i have the impression that any tier 4 could destroy me easily in combat. I'm unoptimized, without an animal companion (in pathfinder you can trade AC for a cleric domain), my spell routine includes commune with birds and charm animal (that in the right situation could actually solve an encounter, but are situational at best).
BTW, even among tier 1 classes, druids have a special place. They cannot be over-optimized as a wizard could, but they don't fall with under-optimization, they are still able to do anything regardless of feats and stats.Last edited by Selion; 2019-01-17 at 04:30 AM.
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2019-01-17, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Any animal based encounter can be solved with charm animal, many survival based encounters involving hunger and exposure can be overcome with endure elements and goodberry, outdoor encounters can be trivialized with entangle, speak with animals can trivialize investigations where an animal happened to witness an event, and that's just off the top of my head.
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-01-17, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
I can't help thinking that the DM may have been tossing some bones her way for being new. Of the T1s, the druid is least able to consistently step on toes of anybody but a dedicated bruiser., particularly at early levels.
I'm with Selion in wanting to see some elaboration, it you'd be so kind?I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2019-01-17, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Yeah, in wildness a druid is pretty much insuperable, i know, but it's more like a class feature, i wouldn't complain that. In a trap filled dungeon a rogue would be more useful.
The issue is that an average druid can fill her slots with blasts or fight in wild shape and be useful even in a dungeon, but this doesn't happen at early levels (at least pathfinder nerfed a lot polymorph spells, so that a druid that doesn't invest in wild shaping is squishy like hell in animal form).
Investigation can be trivialized, but at high levels there are magic countermeasures and often diplomacy has less risks than enchantment.
As DM, i had a party APL 12 disguised to infiltrate to a ceremony, they could use either magical or mundane disguise. In the ceremony there were a priest with true seeing, had they chosen magic they would have discovered instantly.
BTW i won't deny there are problems, I think that around level 10 the DM should work a little to balance things with magic items, and a fair tier 1 player should give up actively the spotlight to other characters occasionally, EG using her spells to buff the group (nobody ever complained about the cleric healing the party).
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2019-01-17, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Closest I've seen to that is the Dragon Ally spells, either in Draconomicon or Dragon Magic (they blur in my mind).
You call a dragon to your aid within certain parameters of what you can call (from memory the main one is HD), and the dragon will demand payment once the thing you desire it to do (if it agrees to it) is over. Presumably until you pay the dragon it sort of just hangs around threatening you or outright attacks you if it looks like you're not going to pay.
Wouldn't be too hard to modify that spell to be an extraplanar thing.OI YOU! Join this one Discord where people talk 3.5 stuff! Also chicken infested related things! It’s pretty rad! https://discord.gg/6HmgXhUZ
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2019-01-17, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Oh, well, that's a different issue, then.
So, you don't have a problem with the "calling the party idiots for needing to be saved from their actions (again)" part, so much as the "is the one who actually caused the problem in the first place" part?
Also, I kinda agree with the snarky comment about "it's the party's fault for going off alone". If I've got a court date, and my buddies don't wait for me, and get in trouble that they knew that they wouldn't have had if I were along, I'ma call them out on their questionable behavior. Similarly, if the GM / module is the foolishly inflexible "whole party CaS balance point", where every encounter absolutely requires the whole party or else TPK, well, it's kinda dumb to force that TPK (again), isn't it?
Don't get me wrong, I've seen players who seemed bound and determined to make things bad, and I've seen characters who seemed designed to be, um, if "the load" has 0 value, what do you call someone who has negative value? Anyway, I've seen characters who were bound and determined to be actively detrimental to the party.
Just wanted to clarify that that's what we're talking about, because, what I initially read you to say, I couldn't see why you'd be upset about it.
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2019-01-17, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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- New England
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
Why would anyone get angry at another player playing a powerful character? As long as they're not a spotlight hog, all it does is help the party.
My current group, I literally want to strangle one of my oldest friends. He is so far below optimal it's infuriating. It wouldn't be that bad if HE weren't the one constantly complaining about it. He's sorcerer 16. No PrCs, literally only blasting spells. Has Leadership, but is doing absolutely nothing with it, and to top it off, the entire table has been trying to get him to multiclass since level 8, and I have personally, repeatedly, done hours of reading to give him options for prcs after getting him to consider it, only to have him reneg on even considering it when I go to talk to him about it.
That's something to be mad about.Last edited by DwarvenWarCorgi; 2019-01-17 at 12:08 PM.
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2019-01-17, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?
If a player Honest True is about to do something stupid of course warn him and advise against it. When a DM asks "Are you sure?" the response should always be "No, never mind. I don't do that."
It's about the player's attitude. It's the player who plays the game despite the other players, not with them, who's the Jerkface Donkey Cavity with a neck I want to wring. Common symptoms are being the Lone Wolf and/or constantly passing secret notes to the DM even when his character is with the party. When he interacts with party members he's arrogant and condescending. He's quite amused by whatever complication another player has to deal with, sitting there with a smile on his face. Some won't help, some do. It's those who do who pompously declare they have to save the party again.