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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    My question is about the first level of Goodman Games Castle Whiterock. There is an encounter on the first level involving 6 slavers, each CR1/2, plus a first level rogue and the leader ikenvar, a Fighter2/Rogue1, along with a tent trap to control battlefield movement of the PCs . The written text identifies this as a CR1 encounter, but it looks like a CR4 instead. can anyone help me figure out what the heck is going on? how is a first level party supposed to defeat this?

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    Or if I can't get a response here, any other forum I could go to?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    It is not a CR 1 encounter. Two CR 1/2's, or a single npc with 1 level of a pc class, is a CR 1 encounter.

    4 CR 1/2's is a CR 2 encounter, 8 would be a CR 4 (so I'd say six ought to be about CR 3), add that to the actual CR 3 already present (ikenvar) and it's more like a CR 5 encounter, before adding in the trap.

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    tiercel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrinblade View Post
    It is not a CR 1 encounter. Two CR 1/2's, or a single npc with 1 level of a pc class, is a CR 1 encounter.

    4 CR 1/2's is a CR 2 encounter, 8 would be a CR 4 (so I'd say six ought to be about CR 3), add that to the actual CR 3 already present (ikenvar) and it's more like a CR 5 encounter, before adding in the trap.
    This, from your description — without having the actual adventure, it’s hard to know if there are any ad hoc modifiers that might adjust the EL (for instance, if the combatants aren’t all there at once, or if the PCs have a way already in the module of detecting/turning the tables on the ambush).

    That said, given that the base EL of what you’ve described is 5+, it’s hard to imagine what would pull it all the way back down to EL 1.

    If this is designed for 1st level characters, keep in mind that a “boss room” probably should look like EL 3-4; EL 5 or 6, though, especially with a trap that could keep PCs from retreating once they realize they are outmatched, is getting into potential TPK territory.

    Having said that, color spray and/or sleep could wreak havoc with a group of enemies, but if the PCs don’t get a chance to nail a group of enemies fast, they’re straight-up outnumbered by potentially near-equal combatants, before taking into account any ambush/trap modifiers.

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    Uncle Pine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    It's actually an EL 6 encounter, possibly EL 7 depending on how relevant the tent trap is going to be in the combat. If a 1st level party is going to survive it's not going to happen by charging in for sure, but rather by trying cherry tap the opposition with hit-and-run tactics, slowly draining enemy resources until only a few slavers are left. What's the party composition?

    As a sidenote, Challenge Rating refers to the strength of a single creature. Instead, Encounter Level is used to determine the difficulty of fighting a group of creature. A lone monster will usually have an Encounter Level equal to its Challenge Rating unless the encounter takes place in an area that puts it at a significant advantage or disadvantage.
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    You appear to have run into the same problem I've found with most 1st level adventures: no one writes 1st level adventures. They write a bunch of EL 2 or EL 3 encounters, maybe space them out so you fight one per day (instead of four EL 1's in a single day) but more likely putting you on a event timer and springing them on you with fiat instead, and then write "1st level" on it.

    This isn't surprising though, when you consider the large and mostly justified derision of 1st level adventurerers as glorified exterminators. Because it's true. Four humanoids vs one humanoid doesn't make you feel heroic, it makes you feel like a bully, and it's well known how four people rolling four initiatives and four actions per turn can crush a single target. (Which is the whole point, because you're supposed to crush encounters with level equal to yours, four times in a day if necessary.) So if you want an actual 1st level adventure, with encounters that include multiple foes, those foes need to be weaker than even 1HD NPC humanoids, which leaves. . . rats and bugs. (Or kobolds, or maybe goblins, but these have the problem where many DMs think they're supposed to make the intentionally underpowered 1st level fodder enemies super tactical and char-op'd because reasons.)

    But people have seen way too many videogames start with killing a bunch of rats and/or bugs and few DMs would actually set this up as a serious problem that requires drastic, dangerous, and immediate action, so we don't get that. Instead we get encounters full of multiple humanoid NPCs or multiple CR 1 monsters, vs the 1st level party, and they're basically just supposed to luck their way through it.


    Now, it's possible this encounter is not actually supposed to be a fight against all of those NPCs. If the text explicitly states that the PCs are only challenged by one CR 1 guy and that's all they have to fight, then it's pretty fair. Though even if it did have such a limit, I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be calling for a duel, which is even worse than the 2nd-3rd level adventures claiming to be 1st.
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    OK so more detail then: two slavers watch the PC's while a third slaver goes and gets the other slavers (all disguised as monks BTW, and very cooperative/lying to the PCs). Once they all arrive, the trap is tripped, and the slavers attack non-lethally to keep from killing the potential slaves/PCs. IF the PCs are overwhelming the slavers, the leader pulls back.

    The PCs are four 1st level, 2 of which were new players. human cleric, half orc fighter, gnome rogue, and human bard. I gave them each a healing potion beforehand, and significantly nerfed the slaver attacks on the PCs, and even then, all but 1 PC went down. The bard was left standing and shot arrows form a distance. real problem is I didn't realize it would be this bad so my fault, but I was going by the book as far as the encounter went.

    Not sure how to award treasure and experience here, since it wasn't a real EL6/CR6 ( I gave them healing potions and nerfed the attacks)

    PS, thanks for all the comments above, i appreciate your help.
    Last edited by Syncrogti; 2019-01-17 at 06:50 PM.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    Yeah, no. Unless the first thing on the next page is "so now that the PCs have been captured" because the module expects them to lose, that fight is bogus.

    One thing that might have come up to be aware of is initiative. A lot of DMs (and modules) seem to think that just because you think someone isn't hostile, they get a surprise round if they attack you. This is not true: initiative in 3.5 is based on hostility and sight. If you have line of sight and they suddenly turn hostile, you all roll initiative, no surprise rounds. I mention this because not only is this encounter far too much, but it's also pulling the "social ambush" tactic and most likely expecting a big gain.

    Another thing to check again is what the module is written for. I've noticed that some are written for parties of *six* PCs, and fail to mention this anywhere other than the intro where it's easily missed. Further, there are some which will be labeled like "for 1st-3rd level characters," but they're actually written for 2nd level characters and they just put 1st on there because "hey it's not like one level is that huge a difference you could totally play this at 1st". And of course, some writers get real caught up under the fact that they know exactly what the PCs should do and rate based on that challenge, rather than what the PCs could or will actually do based on what they've actually written (even in 5e they're still doing this).
    Last edited by Fizban; 2019-01-17 at 08:10 PM.
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Castle Whiterock Questions: first level

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Another thing to check again is what the module is written for. I've noticed that some are written for parties of *six* PCs, and fail to mention this anywhere other than the intro where it's easily missed. Further, there are some which will be labeled like "for 1st-3rd level characters," but they're actually written for 2nd level characters and they just put 1st on there because "hey it's not like one level is that huge a difference you could totally play this at 1st". And of course, some writers get real caught up under the fact that they know exactly what the PCs should do and rate based on that challenge, rather than what the PCs could or will actually do based on what they've actually written (even in 5e they're still doing this).
    The module describes each floor as corresponding to the level of the PCs, and this was the first floor in the dungeon. There are notes along the way that talk about how this is designed for 4-6 players, and they include a 3-player adjustment and 7-player adjustment.

    I will treat this as a ECL3 and give them experience for it. Reasoning: i nerfed some of the damage from slavers and I gave them 4 healing potions not included in the module. Unfortunately I tried to get them to win it, rather than staying neutral, but the encounter was just too overwhelming for them. this makes me realize I have a long way to go in being a DM since I didn't see this problem before the battle.

    Thanks everyone!

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