Good system for bronze-age historical game?

[Reltzik]

I'm playing around with an idea for a game set in the eastern Mediterranean in the early 12th century BCE (interesting times and all that), and I'm looking for a system either set there or that can be ported there easily. It doesn't have to be something actually set in real-world history, but if it isn't I want something I can repurpose pretty easily and which isn't bound to a particular conflict or role (I'm not making everyone be gladiators). I want little-to-no magic and little-to-no dependence on gear (meaning having equipment is a real nice perk, but it won't ruin your build if your fighter doesn't have armor). D20 Modern with tables for ancient equipment and occupations would have been perfect. I also need something with an online SRD for my players to access, and which is either close to a well-known system or which is pretty easy to pick up.

Does anyone know a decent system for this, or should I just start making my own?

EDIT: ... and yes, I'm sure there's a dozen GURPS books for this, but can anyone tell me if they're any good?

[Knaight]

The GURPS books are consistently excellent, at least in terms of historical research - whether you like the system or not is a different matter.

[Reltzik]

The GURPS books are consistently excellent, at least in terms of historical research - whether you like the system or not is a different matter.

I'm mostly doing my own research, though I wouldn't mind checking out what GURPS has to say on that. But system-wise.... I dunno. GURPS has always rubbed me a bit wrong.

[Kiero]

I found ACKS (based on B/X D&D), with some tinkering, worked well for an Iron Age historical game (no magic*, monsters or dungeons), Tyche's Favourites.

I'm already thinking up ways to amend that to fit a straight historical game better, if you're interested? Using ACKS also means you can use the Domains@War mass combat system, though that will work quite easily with any D&D-oriented system, and if you don't mind the numbers being different, standalone.


*With one exception: some forms of divination "work", for varying degrees of efficacy, decipherability and accuracy.

[Rhedyn]

I'm playing around with an idea for a game set in the eastern Mediterranean in the early 12th century BCE (interesting times and all that), and I'm looking for a system either set there or that can be ported there easily. It doesn't have to be something actually set in real-world history, but if it isn't I want something I can repurpose pretty easily and which isn't bound to a particular conflict or role (I'm not making everyone be gladiators). I want little-to-no magic and little-to-no dependence on gear (meaning having equipment is a real nice perk, but it won't ruin your build if your fighter doesn't have armor). D20 Modern with tables for ancient equipment and occupations would have been perfect. I also need something with an online SRD for my players to access, and which is either close to a well-known system or which is pretty easy to pick up.

Does anyone know a decent system for this, or should I just start making my own?

EDIT: ... and yes, I'm sure there's a dozen GURPS books for this, but can anyone tell me if they're any good?

I would just use Savage Worlds (Core Rules), neither Magic nor Gear is needed (though having medical supplies and someone with the healing skill is useful). But it's up to you if pulpy action fits your theme. If you want realistic, then go for GURPS.

[MoiMagnus]

Unfortunately not.
Most things that I've looked at are still using obsolete interpretations of the Bronze age
(i.e, Bronze age where steel doesn't exist, while we know since the 70s that steel production was a regular thing in some places during the late Bronze age)

[Kiero]

Unfortunately not.
Most things that I've looked at are still using obsolete interpretations of the Bronze age
(i.e, Bronze age where steel doesn't exist, while we know since the 70s that steel production was a regular thing in some places during the late Bronze age)

12th century BC isn't "late Bronze Age" in Europe, only the Levant/Anatolia, for places in the eastern Mediterranean. It's also around the time of the Bronze Age Collapse, which may be intentional.

[MoiMagnus]

12th century BC isn't "late Bronze Age" in Europe, only the Levant/Anatolia, for places in the eastern Mediterranean. It's also around the time of the Bronze Age Collapse, which may be intentional.

That's right that I assume that by "late Bronze Age", people talk about Egypt/Anatolia (and others in the region) just before the Bronze Age Collapse (or just after if you want a post-apocalyptic world). Because, in my opinion, that's one of the most interesting region at this time. But you're right that other places did exist at this time too...

[Reltzik]

I can stand a little bit of pulp, but I want mostly-realistic, though I'd compromise realism for easy-to-play.

12th century BC isn't "late Bronze Age" in Europe, only the Levant/Anatolia, for places in the eastern Mediterranean. It's also around the time of the Bronze Age Collapse, which may be intentional.

Very much so. The near-end of civilization in the known world, waves of Sea Peoples raiding everyone, followed by a nigh-post-apocalyptic setting... sounds like a good backdrop for an adventure! Especially since all the unknowns give me room to be creative.

Spoiler: Side-conversation about iron, not important to system questions

Show

As for iron, my understanding is that prior to the collapse it was known but limited in its use. The Hittites had it, but it was mostly limited to their upper-class. The iron age didn't kick off because of new technology (iron working had been around for a couple centuries), but rather because of macroeconomic changes that suddenly made iron more viable than bronze. Iron has a much higher melting temperature and hardness than bronze, meaning it required much more investment in time and equipment to work. You get a superior product but it costs a lot more and bronze was good enough for most people. That changed right around the Collapse, and likely had a lot to do with the loss of the tin trade. No tin means no bronze. Iron's harder to work with, but it's a lot easier to source locally, and when your trading partners get wiped out and your infastructure collapses so you can't finance your own trade expeditions or distant mining colony, you're stuck with locally-sourced. In other words, history and technology are the economy's little *****es.

As for steel, any time you work iron with primitive techniques you're going to get SOME carbon in it, but my understanding is that serious steel production in crucibles didn't start until the 6th or 7th century BCE, and even bloom steel didn't get started until a couple of centuries after the Collapse.

[Rhedyn]

I can stand a little bit of pulp, but I want mostly-realistic, though I'd compromise realism for easy-to-play.

So there is a pretty big difference between easy-to-play and easy-to-run.

GURPS crunch is layered well enough that you don't need to use all or even most the rules to have a good game. The GM can set those limits, create templates, and curate a skills list. After all that, you could have a game that's easy to play and not that hard to GM (after the initial prep work).

With Savage Worlds, you say "Bronze age, no magic" and answer character creation questions (you don't need to explain character creation, but people will likely have questions if you don't). Then your campaign of action hero PCs is ready to go.

[lightningcat]

GURPS is one of my favorite systems to steal ideas from. The amount of research they do makes it so much easier for me.

But as for a "Bronze Age, No Magic" game, nothing is going to be ready straight out of the box. Savage World might be the easiest if you don't want GURPS. There are several versions of Conan RPGs that you could strip the magic out of to make work, magic is usually for the bad guys anyways.

[Knaight]

But as for a "Bronze Age, No Magic" game, nothing is going to be ready straight out of the box. Savage World might be the easiest if you don't want GURPS. There are several versions of Conan RPGs that you could strip the magic out of to make work, magic is usually for the bad guys anyways.

There's always Hillfolk. Sure, it's technically iron age by default but it transfers to bronze age pretty effortlessly, and it very emphatically doesn't have magic unless you go out of your way to add it in. For something more conventional, there's always your choice of generics.

[rs2excelsior]

Haven't played it, but I've run across a system called Blood and Bronze. I think it's aimed a bit earlier than you are intending, but it's set in ancient Mesopotamia. I don't know how much magic it has or how easy it'd be to remove that aspect.

[olskool]

I'm playing around with an idea for a game set in the eastern Mediterranean in the early 12th century BCE (interesting times and all that), and I'm looking for a system either set there or that can be ported there easily. It doesn't have to be something actually set in real-world history, but if it isn't I want something I can repurpose pretty easily and which isn't bound to a particular conflict or role (I'm not making everyone be gladiators). I want little-to-no magic and little-to-no dependence on gear (meaning having equipment is a real nice perk, but it won't ruin your build if your fighter doesn't have armor). D20 Modern with tables for ancient equipment and occupations would have been perfect. I also need something with an online SRD for my players to access, and which is either close to a well-known system or which is pretty easy to pick up.

Does anyone know a decent system for this, or should I just start making my own?

EDIT: ... and yes, I'm sure there are a dozen GURPS books for this, but can anyone tell me if they're any good?

If you don't mind a change of system, check out The Design Mechanism's Mythras game system. It is a Skill-Based lifepath system based on Chaosium/Basic Roleplaying's big yellow book. The two dominant systems in BRP are Call of Cthulhu and Runequest but there are other titles. The Design Mechanism also produces a few Bronze Age settings like Mythic Britian and Mythic Constantinople that are ready to run. Mythras is a more polished D100 system but Mongoose Publishing ALSO produces a decent (but NOT as polished) system called LEGEND. Legend can be had for as little as ONE POUND British in a PDF format. There are also a few settings for Legend. I would check out the Design Mechanism's work, it is first class and there are free sample downloads.

[Kiero]

I can stand a little bit of pulp, but I want mostly-realistic, though I'd compromise realism for easy-to-play.

Very much so. The near-end of civilization in the known world, waves of Sea Peoples raiding everyone, followed by a nigh-post-apocalyptic setting... sounds like a good backdrop for an adventure! Especially since all the unknowns give me room to be creative.

Indeed, it does make for an interesting setting, with lots of intrinsic uncertainty and room for GM license.

Have you decided if the Sea People are fleeing from something, or simply moving to somewhere new? Or anything about their nature? There's some ancient Egyptian artwork showing battles with them.

Spoiler: Side-conversation about iron, not important to system questions

Show

As for iron, my understanding is that prior to the collapse it was known but limited in its use. The Hittites had it, but it was mostly limited to their upper-class. The iron age didn't kick off because of new technology (iron working had been around for a couple centuries), but rather because of macroeconomic changes that suddenly made iron more viable than bronze. Iron has a much higher melting temperature and hardness than bronze, meaning it required much more investment in time and equipment to work. You get a superior product but it costs a lot more and bronze was good enough for most people. That changed right around the Collapse, and likely had a lot to do with the loss of the tin trade. No tin means no bronze. Iron's harder to work with, but it's a lot easier to source locally, and when your trading partners get wiped out and your infastructure collapses so you can't finance your own trade expeditions or distant mining colony, you're stuck with locally-sourced. In other words, history and technology are the economy's little *****es.

As for steel, any time you work iron with primitive techniques you're going to get SOME carbon in it, but my understanding is that serious steel production in crucibles didn't start until the 6th or 7th century BCE, and even bloom steel didn't get started until a couple of centuries after the Collapse.

Spoiler: Materials side-conversation

Show

I think one of the underlying changes was that the easily available sources of tin, such as in Anatolia, were tapped out. The problem that bronze has is that copper and tin, the two main ingredients, don't occur together. Contrast that to iron ore, which is often close to either coal or trees to make charcoal (and rivers) for the requisite hot fires.

Also note tin wasn't the only thing you could alloy copper with to make bronze. An older alternative was arsenic, with all the deleterious effects on the health of the bronzeworker that implies. That's where the stereotype of the lame smith comes from.

Well-worked bronze is not inferior to the grade of iron they had in the period, the only notable difference is that it's about 10% heavier for the same volume of material. It remained superior for making large plates, such as for armour, and had other properties that were beneficial. Being non-ferrous, meant it was the perfect material for a ship's ram, which was in regular contact with sea water.

[Reltzik]

Well, that's a lot of systems for me to consider. It will take a while to look through them all, but thanks everyone for the recommendations. If nothing else, I can give GURPS another try.

Indeed, it does make for an interesting setting, with lots of intrinsic uncertainty and room for GM license.

Have you decided if the Sea People are fleeing from something, or simply moving to somewhere new? Or anything about their nature? There's some ancient Egyptian artwork showing battles with them.

In a previous, more pulpy iteration, I was going to have Atlantis be a thing. Make it a huge source of tin and zinc, have them overmine, and then have a supervolcanic eruption, sinkholes, and liquefaction destroy the island. The survivors (from colonies and trading fleets) then head east looking for a new home. An even more fantastic version had the Sea People be actual sea monsters, creatures-from-the-black-lagoon fishmen (maybe people cursed by the gods or some such) that the nations had to unite to fight against.

Nowadays, I'm thinking in terms of the Hekla 3 eruption causing climate change and forcing Europeans to migrate south, creating a bit of a billiards effect. Group A moves south and displaces Group B, which moves south and displaces Group C, and so on. This could produce a seemingly-endless stream of refugees turned invaders, though I'm not sure how to justify a sudden outbreak of naval acumen. (I have a few plausible excuses, but they don't entirely hold water.) But I also might just leave them mysterious and unexplained and alien to emphasize the uncertainty and loss of control that those who lived in the era must have felt.

Spoiler: Materials side-conversation

Show

I think one of the underlying changes was that the easily available sources of tin, such as in Anatolia, were tapped out. The problem that bronze has is that copper and tin, the two main ingredients, don't occur together. Contrast that to iron ore, which is often close to either coal or trees to make charcoal (and rivers) for the requisite hot fires.

Also note tin wasn't the only thing you could alloy copper with to make bronze. An older alternative was arsenic, with all the deleterious effects on the health of the bronzeworker that implies. That's where the stereotype of the lame smith comes from.

Well-worked bronze is not inferior to the grade of iron they had in the period, the only notable difference is that it's about 10% heavier for the same volume of material. It remained superior for making large plates, such as for armour, and had other properties that were beneficial. Being non-ferrous, meant it was the perfect material for a ship's ram, which was in regular contact with sea water.

Spoiler

Show

I haven't gotten around to detailed research into the qualities of iron and bronze products, and I'd been stupidly assuming that iron was better. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll have to give it a closer look.

[Kiero]

In a previous, more pulpy iteration, I was going to have Atlantis be a thing. Make it a huge source of tin and zinc, have them overmine, and then have a supervolcanic eruption, sinkholes, and liquefaction destroy the island. The survivors (from colonies and trading fleets) then head east looking for a new home. An even more fantastic version had the Sea People be actual sea monsters, creatures-from-the-black-lagoon fishmen (maybe people cursed by the gods or some such) that the nations had to unite to fight against.

Nowadays, I'm thinking in terms of the Hekla 3 eruption causing climate change and forcing Europeans to migrate south, creating a bit of a billiards effect. Group A moves south and displaces Group B, which moves south and displaces Group C, and so on. This could produce a seemingly-endless stream of refugees turned invaders, though I'm not sure how to justify a sudden outbreak of naval acumen. (I have a few plausible excuses, but they don't entirely hold water.) But I also might just leave them mysterious and unexplained and alien to emphasize the uncertainty and loss of control that those who lived in the era must have felt.

Bear in mind the primary vessel of the era was some form of oared galley, like the triakonter ("thirty-oared") or pentekonter ("fifty-oared"), used equally for trade and warfare.

On such a vessel, most of the crew are just motive power, they don't need to know anything about seafaring beyond how to man their oar. They'd also double up as marines, grabbing up weapons, helmets and shields from under their benches when the ship was boarded, or they were going to raid targets on land.

As long as the helmsman/navigator knows what they're doing, the rest could even be landsmen, as long as they're fit enough to pull an oar adequately. Same goes constructing the ships, a shipwright is needed to oversee the process, but much of the manufacture is simple enough that less skilled people could do the grunt work.

Also worth noting that these weren't Age of Sail ships that stayed in the water for months on end, they needed to come out to dry at the end of the day, and couldn't carry much food or water, so often coasted from beach to beach. So the connection to the land is stronger than it might appear.

[Thrudd]

Well, that's a lot of systems for me to consider. It will take a while to look through them all, but thanks everyone for the recommendations. If nothing else, I can give GURPS another try.



In a previous, more pulpy iteration, I was going to have Atlantis be a thing. Make it a huge source of tin and zinc, have them overmine, and then have a supervolcanic eruption, sinkholes, and liquefaction destroy the island. The survivors (from colonies and trading fleets) then head east looking for a new home. An even more fantastic version had the Sea People be actual sea monsters, creatures-from-the-black-lagoon fishmen (maybe people cursed by the gods or some such) that the nations had to unite to fight against.

Nowadays, I'm thinking in terms of the Hekla 3 eruption causing climate change and forcing Europeans to migrate south, creating a bit of a billiards effect. Group A moves south and displaces Group B, which moves south and displaces Group C, and so on. This could produce a seemingly-endless stream of refugees turned invaders, though I'm not sure how to justify a sudden outbreak of naval acumen. (I have a few plausible excuses, but they don't entirely hold water.) But I also might just leave them mysterious and unexplained and alien to emphasize the uncertainty and loss of control that those who lived in the era must have felt.

Spoiler

Show

I haven't gotten around to detailed research into the qualities of iron and bronze products, and I'd been stupidly assuming that iron was better. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll have to give it a closer look.

What is meant by a "sudden outbreak of naval acumen"? There had been experienced seafarers in the Aegean and Mediterranean for centuries already. The Egyptians and proto-Phoenecians traded all over the place. The Minoans had an Aegean sea-empire prior to rise of the Mycenaeans. Some people think the "sea people" might have been Mycenaeans or related Aegean proto-Greek raiders, at least in part. Greece and the Aegean was basically full of bronze-age vikings. Waves of people migrating from the north and east destroying the Mycenaean palaces, might drive some seafarers to look to settle elsewhere instead of just raiding. There's a theory that the Phillistines were a colony of Mycenaeans that intermarried with local women (based on some pottery finds). The Hyksos actually settled and ruled a chunk of lower Egypt for a bit, they didn't just raid it (there's no real evidence of it, but it's been speculated that they could have been proto-Greeks, also).
If the setting is going to be from the POV of Egyptians or Mesopotamians or Levantines, then you don't really need to explain anything, people just know that raids from the sea are more frequent and in some places the raiders, who look different and speak a different language, have decided to take over some villages and settle.

[Reltzik]

What is meant by a "sudden outbreak of naval acumen"?

I meant that the peoples displaced from inner Europe to the coast, and then forced from there to go sea-raiding, wouldn't be very competent at either building ships or operating them. But as Kiero explained that's not a huge obstacle.

[Xuc Xac]

Spoiler

Show

I haven't gotten around to detailed research into the qualities of iron and bronze products, and I'd been stupidly assuming that iron was better. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll have to give it a closer look.

Spoiler

Show

Iron<Bronze<Steel. Iron was an expensive novelty for the wealthy back when it was only sourced from meteorites. (King Tut had an iron dagger, I think.) When iron was being dug out of the ground and used to produce mass quantities of consumer goods because tin for bronze was getting scarce, iron was cheap crap for poor people. Steel is better than bronze, but nobody knew how to make it on purpose for a long time. After they figured out the way to reliably and repeatedly make steel, they didn't go back to bronze for a lot of things because steel was better for most applications. If you're making weapons to kill humans or armor to protect them, on a scale of "1 is boffer LARP toys and 10 is mythical mithril/adamantium", iron is an 8, bronze is a 9, and steel is 9.5. You need a 2 to kill someone and it starts to get really easy around a 4 or 5.

Bronze was useful for things where corrosion or friction were big issues. A lot of naval gear exposed to sea water was made of bronze. Bronze has low metal-on-metal friction, so it was used for cannon barrels for a long time because iron cannonballs were less likely to stick in the barrel.

[JoeJ]

Spoiler

Show

Iron<Bronze<Steel. Iron was an expensive novelty for the wealthy back when it was only sourced from meteorites. (King Tut had an iron dagger, I think.) When iron was being dug out of the ground and used to produce mass quantities of consumer goods because tin for bronze was getting scarce, iron was cheap crap for poor people. Steel is better than bronze, but nobody knew how to make it on purpose for a long time. After they figured out the way to reliably and repeatedly make steel, they didn't go back to bronze for a lot of things because steel was better for most applications. If you're making weapons to kill humans or armor to protect them, on a scale of "1 is boffer LARP toys and 10 is mythical mithril/adamantium", iron is an 8, bronze is a 9, and steel is 9.5. You need a 2 to kill someone and it starts to get really easy around a 4 or 5.

Bronze was useful for things where corrosion or friction were big issues. A lot of naval gear exposed to sea water was made of bronze. Bronze has low metal-on-metal friction, so it was used for cannon barrels for a long time because iron cannonballs were less likely to stick in the barrel.

In a folklore-based fantasy setting, though, iron has the significant advantage of being effective against elves.

[Xuc Xac]

In a folklore-based fantasy setting, though, iron has the significant advantage of being effective against elves.

That's an iron age idea. Iron was the quintessential artificial material. Today elves would be vulnerable to plastic or carbon nanotubes or something.

[Reltzik]

I thought it was doppelgangers that were vulnerable to carbon.