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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Surprise Attack within Party

    Okay, so I have the following question. First, I am re-writing the old U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh and there is a situation that comes up and I need to know how to handle it or if it is too overpowered with 5e rules.

    So the premise is a 3rd level Rogue (Assassin) is to infiltrate the 1st level party, acting the ally and/or gaining trust throughout the adventure.

    At a certain point he wants to attack a party member and then make an escape. How do you handle the sequence of this attack and how does it work or trigger both Sneak Attack (Thief 3rd level so 2d6) and Assassinate (both handling advantage and surprise).

    I have come up with the following steps, but this sounds pretty overpowered vs. 1st level party so I might want to change things up. Assume Rogue is attacking with dagger (1d4 + dex bonus)

    1. Rogue picks target in party, looking for opportunity
    2. Rogue attacks and each character in party rolls surprise (Thief's Stealth vs. Character Passive Perception)
    3. Roll Initiative for each character and rogue (you roll initiative for everyone even if they are surprised)
    4. Begin actions in initiative sequence.
    5. When rogue's turn in combat, if his target is surprised AND hasn't gone yet (lower initiative), the attack is with advantage and critical so damage is 2d4 + 4d6 + dex bonus.
    6. If the target is not surprised and hasn't gone yet the attack is with advantage but NOT critical so 1d4 + 2d6 + dex bonus.
    7. If the target is not surprised and went before the rogue in initiative order, the attack is NOT with advantage and NOT critical so just typical dagger attack = 1d4 + dex bonus.
    8. If the target IS surprised but rolls higher on initiative, the attack is NOT with advantage but critical so 2d4 + dex bonus (no Sneak Attack).

    Am I playing this correctly? In addition after the attack, the rogue can two dash abilities (one normal, one bonus) or dash + disengage if he wants.

    What is wrong with this thinking, if anything?

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    5. When rogue's turn in combat, if his target is surprised AND hasn't gone yet (lower initiative), the attack is with advantage and critical so damage is 2d4 + 4d6 + dex bonus.
    You said your party is level 1. If that's the case, then this damage is way too high for them. If you take average damage of the above roll, then you'd have a total of 25 damage - assuming the lvl 3 Rogue has a dex modifier of +3. At level 1, depending on the class and Con modifier, this could mean insta-kill.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    8. If the target IS surprised but rolls higher on initiative, the attack is NOT with advantage but critical so 2d4 + dex bonus (no Sneak Attack).
    I think you have it all right except for this, I can't remember the exact text (and am afb) but I'm sure someone else will either quote it or prove me wrong. The auto critical for the assassin is only for hitting a target that is surprised, a target is no longer surprised once it has had its turn in the initiative order.

    So if the target starts surprised but rolls higher than the assassin on initiative, up to the targets turn it can't take reactions and on its turn it can't take any actions as it is surprised, but once its turn ends it is no longer surprised and may take reactions.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    From your description of the rogue's methods, you should be rolling Deception vs Insight instead.
    The surprise is not the rogue's presence, but their intentions.
    Last edited by NecessaryWeevil; 2019-01-14 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    You said your party is level 1. If that's the case, then this damage is way too high for them. If you take average damage of the above roll, then you'd have a total of 25 damage - assuming the lvl 3 Rogue has a dex modifier of +3. At level 1, depending on the class and Con modifier, this could mean insta-kill.
    Well, that's kind of why I'm asking. The original U1 module, the "plant" was a level 3 thief (just called an assassin) but with 5e and the assassin subclass, the bonuses get out of hand quick.

    I think the key to the encounter is whether it's even a surprise attack at all. Logic says it could be, but the rules are pretty unclear on stealth and surprise as it relates to "hidden or seen".

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    I think the key to the encounter is whether it's even a surprise attack at all. Logic says it could be, but the rules are pretty unclear on stealth and surprise as it relates to "hidden or seen".
    That's not the only circumstance in which a creature can be surprised. If you're in a peaceful situation with non-hostiles, then one of them drawing a blade and attacking while the others are in conversation can also count as a surprise attack.

    What you could also do, is have the level of the Rogue be equal to that of the players. Don't make it a combat opportunity by giving the Rogue a guaranteed means of escape (either extra movement, or jumping onto a riding cart, or whatever). Instead, make his attack a poisonous one - one that isn't easily healed. Then you also have a nice plot hook where the party has to find a way to cure their party member.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    That's not the only circumstance in which a creature can be surprised. If you're in a peaceful situation with non-hostiles, then one of them drawing a blade and attacking while the others are in conversation can also count as a surprise attack.

    What you could also do, is have the level of the Rogue be equal to that of the players. Don't make it a combat opportunity by giving the Rogue a guaranteed means of escape (either extra movement, or jumping onto a riding cart, or whatever). Instead, make his attack a poisonous one - one that isn't easily healed. Then you also have a nice plot hook where the party has to find a way to cure their party member.
    I agree. I'm going to have to redesign the original NPC a bit to balance things out. Just making it a level 2 rogue does wonders. That's only 1d4 + dex damage. Any way you see to get advantage anywhere? He could attack during an encounter, then his "within 5' of an enemy kicks in" maybe. Adding poison might be difficult since his weapon is "borrowed" from the characters. If anything, I could run a "chase" scene using some of the alternate rules out there on the web. Those can be fun.

    I have to say, there's a big difference in this scenario between a 2nd level rogue and a 3rd level rogue/assassin. Maybe too much.
    Last edited by deljzc; 2019-01-14 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    From your description of the rogue's methods, you should be rolling Deception vs Insight instead.
    The surprise is not the rogue's presence, but their intentions.
    Seconding on this - it's detecting the motive. Note you should also look at this initially - passive insight, unless someone questions the motive.

    My other thought is Perception vs Sleight of Hand (concealing the move), but that's basically one Dex check or another.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    Seconding on this - it's detecting the motive. Note you should also look at this initially - passive insight, unless someone questions the motive.

    My other thought is Perception vs Sleight of Hand (concealing the move), but that's basically one Dex check or another.
    If the Rogue attacked during an encounter when the players were engaged with other enemies, how would you handle it? Any check at all? Surprise at all? Is the attack done as part of the normal initiative/combat moves?

    Just discussion. I never realized how hard this simple premise was to adjudicate, but I'd like to be fair about it and set the right precedent moving forward.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    If the Rogue attacked during an encounter when the players were engaged with other enemies, how would you handle it? Any check at all? Surprise at all? Is the attack done as part of the normal initiative/combat moves?
    Okay, putting on my DM hat. This is just my opinion and how I would rule, it's my interpretation and might not be strictly RAW.

    No initiative roll required, as the party is already in a combat encounter. Follow normal initiative order. If the Rogue wants to do a surprise attack, then he needs to move in behind the victim and roll Stealth against their Passive Perception. If he succeeds, then he gets a surprise attack against the victim - this doesn't mean he gets advantage, so no Sneak Attack damage. It does mean that the victim gets no reaction, because they haven't had a turn before the Rogue reveals his intention (the reaction during a surprise round is that split-second you see something happening and can react if you're fast enough)... so the victim doesn't have their turn between the moment of reveal and the Rogue's turn (since they're at the same time), so they get no reaction.

    I'd also rule that party members who have a clear line of sight at the victim's back (as in, standing behind them and not next to or in front of them) get a check as well, because they can clearly see the Rogue moving in. If their Passive Perception is higher than his Stealth roll, then they're allowed to use their reaction against him if they have an action that allows it (like Sentinel feat, or Rally maneuvre).

    Oh, and about the poison: you can easily borrow a blade and then coat it with a poison from a vial you carry. Just saying. :3
    Last edited by Maelynn; 2019-01-14 at 12:34 PM. Reason: ruddy typoes
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Just because he was a level 3 thief/assassin on U1 doesn't mean he should be the same level now. Levels are not equal between the systems.

    Also, their is no need the NPC needs to have class levels. Just give him hit points, AC and a few attacks and abilities. Make those damage levels and abilities whatever you need for the encounter. If you don't want them to be lethal, then don't give the NPC lethal damage levels.

    After the NPC is built to have the abilities you need, then calculate its CR. Odds are it will be 1/2 to 1.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    No initiative roll required, as the party is already in a combat encounter. Follow normal initiative order. If the Rogue wants to do a surprise attack, then he needs to move in behind the victim and roll Stealth against their Passive Perception. If he succeeds, then he gets a surprise attack against the victim - this doesn't mean he gets advantage, so no Sneak Attack damage. It does mean that the victim gets no reaction, because they haven't had a turn before the Rogue reveals his intention (the reaction during a surprise round is that split-second you see something happening and can react if you're fast enough)... so the victim doesn't have their turn between the moment of reveal and the Rogue's turn (since they're at the same time), so they get no reaction.
    Why SHOULDN'T the Assassin get advantage (and thus Sneak Attack) on his attack roll? They're attacking from stealth after presumably using their bonus action to enter stealth.

    If it's the first turn of the combat and the Assassin moves before their victim in the initiative order, they should get their Assassinate bonuses. Otherwise (even if they turn against the party partway through the combat), they should not. To me, the bonuses from Assassinate come from attacking someone who is not quite yet ready for/expecting combat to happen right at that moment (even if they do expect combat to happen at some point soon; it's sort of like how you can still be frightened by a jump scare that you know is coming, but repeated jump scares in a row lose their effectiveness).
    Last edited by ATHATH; 2019-01-14 at 01:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    Seconding on this - it's detecting the motive. Note you should also look at this initially - passive insight, unless someone questions the motive.

    My other thought is Perception vs Sleight of Hand (concealing the move), but that's basically one Dex check or another.
    That one could go either way. In Real Life, if I see that you have a knife out and you're coming at me, I'm ready to move out of the way. I do that even when it's a family member--I know they're not going to poke me intentionally but I don't trust them not to stumble over the edge of the carpet.

    So, I'd say in general, the assassin would have to win a Deception v Insight for me to think "Okay, he wants to be my ally" when I first meet him and occasionally afterward. At the time of attack, probably a Sleight or Stealth vs my Perception to get a Sneak Attack in, although I might well have Disadvantage if I'm distracted, or no check at all if I'm very distracted or asleep.

    Note for the DM: Don't be so in love with this idea that you ignore your players and force it to happen. I've had a DM do this to a party I was in, giving the traitor complete surprise despite my character saying for three weeks that we don't know what this dude is up to, we shouldn't trust him, we need to keep an eye on him, never let him stand watch alone, and such.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Why SHOULDN'T the Assassin get advantage (and thus Sneak Attack) on his attack roll? They're attacking from stealth after presumably using their bonus action to enter stealth.
    You kind of missed the bit where the OP said they'd lower the Rogue's level, making them no longer an Assassin.

    Attacking a creature in combat from Stealth doesn't give you advantage on the attack roll, unless the DM specifically allows it. (PHB 177)

    Attacking a surprised creature doesn't give you advantage on the attack roll, unless you have an ability that specificaly allows it.
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    It's a hard combat to make balanced, because the rogue logically doesn't want to attack without the advantages (figuratively) in his favor. He wants to hit and run, so he's looking for an ideal scenario for that to work.

    I mean, the guy has no armor and only a dagger or short sword given to him by the characters. He can't get into a one-on-five+ situation and live. But when you read the original module, his job is to prevent the characters from finding something up to and including attacking them. It's a fun roll-playing exercise that I don't want to devolve into constant perception and insight checks. I also don't want to make it a suicide mission or a one hit automatic PC kill or an automatic surprise attack (when I know the characters aren't going to buy him as 100% legit).

    Obviously, the ideas above to change the NPC away from a strict, PC-style level 3 Rogue (Assassin) is a logical first step. Now I need to go through in my head a couple different scenarios of combat to make sure it's fair (and make sure I'm following the rules correctly).

    I really appreciate all the feedback so far. This is my first post, so I'm finding all the involvement very welcoming. Thanks.
    Last edited by deljzc; 2019-01-14 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    That one could go either way. In Real Life, if I see that you have a knife out and you're coming at me, I'm ready to move out of the way. I do that even when it's a family member--I know they're not going to poke me intentionally but I don't trust them not to stumble over the edge of the carpet.

    So, I'd say in general, the assassin would have to win a Deception v Insight for me to think "Okay, he wants to be my ally" when I first meet him and occasionally afterward. At the time of attack, probably a Sleight or Stealth vs my Perception to get a Sneak Attack in, although I might well have Disadvantage if I'm distracted, or no check at all if I'm very distracted or asleep.

    Note for the DM: Don't be so in love with this idea that you ignore your players and force it to happen. I've had a DM do this to a party I was in, giving the traitor complete surprise despite my character saying for three weeks that we don't know what this dude is up to, we shouldn't trust him, we need to keep an eye on him, never let him stand watch alone, and such.
    About the last part, I agree 100%, which is why maybe I'm talking it through here to make sure I play it out correctly. I want to be prepared ahead of time, not free-wheel this whole encounter and make the PC's feel like I screwed them. There has to be some hard logic (and rules) behind my decision.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    You don't need to make the combat with him balanced, but for it to be fun for the players, you need to give them a chance to catch him before he acts. The whole shtick of an assassin is to attack deadly with surprise, so him having those abilities is fine conceptually.

    Now, if you are sure to make him have tells and give the players clues that maybe something is up, it's on the players if they fail to read the signs and suspect he will betray them. The goal should be to have the players blame themselves if he actually gets the chance to drop one or more of them.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    It looks like you have the rules correct on surprise.

    I've run this module twice in 5e for a six-man level 1 party.

    Looking at my notes I originally had him as 3rd level assassin in my initial conversion pass. By the time I finished I had made him a Thug (MM p350), swapping his Strength and Dexterity scores. An assassin was too powerful, imo, for level one PCs. Instead, I was going to have him attack at a time the PCs were already in combat. Because of the Thug's abilities I don't have to care about stealth rolls. He just gets advantage on all attacks and that, to me, was a good enough simulation of 'surprise'. Though I will admit that no players were actually caught off guard by his betrayal.

    The first time he struck was when the PCs encountered the skeletons. I considered them 'allies' for purposes of the Thug getting advantage. The fact that he hits twice at advantage will be far more of a surprise to your players than his betrayal will be. His damage per attack of 1d4+2 is low enough it won't kill any PC outright.

    The second time he betrayed the PCs was in the caves fighting the Illusionist. This was a much harder fight but I realized that the Thug having to attack a foe that is within 5 ft. of an ally to get advantage means that you can't use advantage on the squishies in the back row. I was fine with this.

    I know my solution doesn't directly address your questions about surprise. However, I wanted the interaction with the "assassin" to be more role-playing than combat centric considering he's probably the only thing the PCs will converse with in the entire first half of the module.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by guachi View Post
    It looks like you have the rules correct on surprise.

    I've run this module twice in 5e for a six-man level 1 party.

    Looking at my notes I originally had him as 3rd level assassin in my initial conversion pass. By the time I finished I had made him a Thug (MM p350), swapping his Strength and Dexterity scores. An assassin was too powerful, imo, for level one PCs. Instead, I was going to have him attack at a time the PCs were already in combat. Because of the Thug's abilities I don't have to care about stealth rolls. He just gets advantage on all attacks and that, to me, was a good enough simulation of 'surprise'. Though I will admit that no players were actually caught off guard by his betrayal.

    The first time he struck was when the PCs encountered the skeletons. I considered them 'allies' for purposes of the Thug getting advantage. The fact that he hits twice at advantage will be far more of a surprise to your players than his betrayal will be. His damage per attack of 1d4+2 is low enough it won't kill any PC outright.

    The second time he betrayed the PCs was in the caves fighting the Illusionist. This was a much harder fight but I realized that the Thug having to attack a foe that is within 5 ft. of an ally to get advantage means that you can't use advantage on the squishies in the back row. I was fine with this.

    I know my solution doesn't directly address your questions about surprise. However, I wanted the interaction with the "assassin" to be more role-playing than combat centric considering he's probably the only thing the PCs will converse with in the entire first half of the module.
    That's a good idea. Might clean the whole thing up and save me a lot of rules issues to resolve.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    5e isn't balanced for PvP. Use Spy instead of PC-class rogue. Tougher than 3rd level rogue, so it's got higher chance to escape, though the (non-assassination) damage is slightly higher too, thanks to better action economy (it's got TWF built-in into the multiattack action without the need to spend BA (so it can use Cunning Action at the same time) and adds ability mod to off-hand attack). However, it means it can get off a decent attack even if sneak attack is unavailable for some reason.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    If the Rogue attacked during an encounter when the players were engaged with other enemies, how would you handle it? Any check at all? Surprise at all? Is the attack done as part of the normal initiative/combat moves?
    Coincidentally, I started a thread asking that exact question a while ago, but of course I can't find it now to link to it...
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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    1. Rogue picks target in party, looking for opportunity
    2. Rogue attacks and each character in party rolls surprise (Thief's Stealth vs. Character Passive Perception)
    Personally, seeing as he's in the party and accepted, I would resolve it according to the Thiefs Deception vs the Partys passive Insight scores.

    Anyone fooled by the Thief and trusting him (who he beats with his Deception check), gets surprised when he attacks them.

    3. Roll Initiative for each character and rogue (you roll initiative for everyone even if they are surprised)
    4. Begin actions in initiative sequence.
    Yes, but this includes surprised creatures. They still get a turn on their initiative count, but cannot act nor can they take actions on their turn (they basically do nothing). They also cant take reactions until after their turn ends.

    This is important for another reason (see below)

    5. When rogue's turn in combat, if his target is surprised AND hasn't gone yet (lower initiative), the attack is with advantage and critical so damage is 2d4 + 4d6 + dex bonus.
    Yes.

    You're over complicating this. Think of 'surprise' as a temporary condition that is caused when combat starts and you're unaware of at least one hostile threat when initiative is called for.

    You retain the 'surprised condition' until your first turn finishes on round 1 of the encounter (at which point you can also start to take reactions.

    You still get a turn when surprised; you just cant act or move on that turn.

    Example:

    Thief (T) has befriended PCs 1, 2, 3 and 4. As they are sitting around chatting, he draws a knife and attacks!

    DM calls for Insight vs Deception checks to see if the PCs can clue onto his evil intentions before the attack (in lieu of a Stealth v Perception check). PCs 1 makes it (and isnt surpirsed), PCs 2 and 3 fail. PC 4 also fails, but has the Alert feat, and can never be surprised.

    Initiative is now rolled. T gets a 15. PC 2 gets a 20. PC 1 gets a 14, PC 3 gets a 10 and PC 4 gets a 5.

    Round 1 starts:

    Initiative count 20. PC 2 has his turn. PC 2 is surprised, so he cannot act or move, and his turn ends (he has a turn, but cant do anything on his turn due to being surprised). He can now take reactions.
    Initiative count 15. Thiefs turn. PC 2 is no longer surprised (and has had a turn, albeit one where he could do nothing). PC's 1 and 4 are not surprised (but havent had their turns yet) however PC 3 is surprised AND hasnt had a turn yet this round.

    • The Thief gets [advantage] and [auto-crit] vs PC 3 only (he's both surprised and has yet to have a turn). He cant take reactions against this attack (he's surprised and his initiative order has yet to come around this round, meaning he hasnt had a turn yet.
    • The Thief gets [advantage only] vs PCs 1 and 4 [Both are not surprised, but both also havent had a turn yet]. Both PCs can use reactions against this attack (such as the Shield spell) seeing as they are not surprised.
    • The Thief attacks PC 2 normally as he's had a turn (albeit one where he could do nothing) meaning he is no longer surprised (and he can also use a reaction if he wants, seeing as he's no longer surprsied and has had a turn).


    The Assasins ability to 'auto crit' relies on surprising a creature (catch them off guard, and remember they're only surprised till their first turn comes around on round one, notwithstanding they cant actually do anything that turn), meaning the Assasin also needs to beat thier initiative score in addition to catching them off guard.

    If they havent yet had a turn (regardless of if you're surprised or not, you always get a turn. Just if you're surprised, you cant act or move on that turn) then the 1st part of the Assasinate ability triggers, and he gets advantage to his attack (target yet to have a turn in that combat).
    Last edited by Malifice; 2019-01-15 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    You kind of missed the bit where the OP said they'd lower the Rogue's level, making them no longer an Assassin.

    Attacking a creature in combat from Stealth doesn't give you advantage on the attack roll, unless the DM specifically allows it. (PHB 177)

    Attacking a surprised creature doesn't give you advantage on the attack roll, unless you have an ability that specificaly allows it.
    This isn't technically true. "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it" (PG 195 PHB). Naturally one of the most common ways to do this is breaking line of sight and taking the Hide Action.

    The line from the book is " In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on the attack roll before you are seen"

    The line you're quoting is in reference to allowing a target to maintain their unseen advantage at a time where they would normally have been seen.

    In context, this means that the DM would have to decide that a player was suitably distracted by a threat other than our Assassin and make a ruling that the Assassin could reasonable backstab the target, this runs the risk of the player a bit miffed at the result. However, if the Assassin instead "fled" into the forest and hid from the party, as long as his stealth roll beat the passive perceptions of the party and he managed to avoid anyone trailing him, he could maneuver himself into an advantageous position and strike with advantage from an unseen position, leaving the party to question whether or not the Assassin had even betrayed them or whether he was killed by whoever had just shot them.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    This isn't technically true. "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it" (PG 195 PHB). Naturally one of the most common ways to do this is breaking line of sight and taking the Hide Action.
    Ah, thank you for providing the page number. I had searched for the ruling on this before I wrote my post, but could only find the bit on Hiding so I based my reply on that. I concur with what you've said.
    Just remember... if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    The encounter might work better if it can be delayed until the PCs are second level. This would make it likely that the rogue could reduce their target to zero hit points but far less likely to insta-kill the target (at least if they don't score a crit either through rolling a 20 or application of surprise).

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Surprise Attack within Party

    This is not the only place I've scene a lot of discussion on D&D 5e rules on surprise, hidden, initiative, and how they interact with Rogue/Assassin abilities.

    I have to say it's not the most intuitive system to weed through (both for the players and DM's).

    I've laid out a pretty simple case of "what if" scenario and the amount of rules interpretations (many logical per RAW) are kind of all over the place.

    In this specific case in my attempts to re-write module U1, I am avoiding the NPC being an actual Rogue/Assassin and as discussed above kind of creating a new Rogue/Thug based on a combination of Spy/Thug monster in the MM pg 349-350. In summary, I'm just making an NPC that can do about 2d6 + 3 damage on surprise and 1d6 + 3 damage on no surprise and then get into the rogue fleeing (which possibly gets me into a "chase" and that's a whole new can of worms).

    But I do admit, being devil's advocate, if one party member wanted to attempt to assassinate another party member during an adventure, I would be hard pressed to find the answers in the rules as written on how to deal with it EXACTLY.

    I sort of think they could have done a better job of explaining surprise and how it interacts with initiative and actions.
    Last edited by deljzc; 2019-01-16 at 04:45 PM.

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