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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Aaand this is where you lost me, twice. "People assumed to be dead usually aren't" is untrue; the examples of characters coming back after apparently dying are memorable, but vastly outweighed by the number of characters (even major, named ones) who were actually dead...being dead. We never see corpses of, say, any of the Linear Guild kobolds*, but nobody assumes the three dead ones are coming back.
    Same with most dead characters. We don't always see their bodies, we definitely don't see anything that would stop people from bringing them back, but nobody assumes they're alive, because that would be stupid.
    In most of the cases where we don't explicitly see the body, it's pretty clear that they're dead based on the situation. For Thog, Tarquin said that they wouldn't know for sure whether Thog is dead until they dug him out from the rubble. Given that it was specifically called out that we don't know if Thog is dead or not, it seems like a pretty good bet to assume he's not.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    There was a specific narrative purpose there; to make Tarquin's later attempt to look like Thog believable. We therefore should not take that statement as evidence that he is alive.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Oh, that's a good point! I'd completely forgotten about that. I agree then, it seems more likely that Thog is dead.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Except neither we nor the people Tarquin was talking to had any reason were expected to fall for Tarquinís impersonation. And Thog himself calls his fate uncertain in the foreword for Good deeds gone unpunished.

    And there has never been a case of the Linear Guild abandonning their teammates, it has always been a member quitting by leaving the ĎĎleadershipíí in whatever pickle they got themselves into this time.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    There's another narrative purpose to not showing Thog's death - it would signal the beginning of the end of the Linear Guild, and Nale's upcoming death wouldn't have had the same shock value that it did. For what it's worth, I don't think we'll ever get an answer on Thog's status, because I don't think he'll be back in the story. Or course, note that I said that thoh will proudly be the one that kills Tarquin off-panel.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post

    Aaand this is where you lost me, twice. "People assumed to be dead usually aren't" is untrue; the examples of characters coming back after apparently dying are memorable, but vastly outweighed by the number of characters (even major, named ones) who were actually dead...being dead. We never see corpses of, say, any of the Linear Guild kobolds*, but nobody assumes the three dead ones are coming back.
    Same with most dead characters. We don't always see their bodies, we definitely don't see anything that would stop people from bringing them back, but nobody assumes they're alive, because that would be stupid.
    I'm not talking about "In the Order of the Stick comic", I'm talking about in fiction in general. "A character is assumed to have died but later is found to have really been alive, and comes back in a critical moment to surprise everyone and affect the plot" is a fairly common trope, and OOTS follows tropes like nobody's business.

    Imagine how disappointed Elan would be if a pretty significant recurring character ended their character arc in an unknown life state with someone saying "we'll find out if he's dead later" and it turns out they actually are. It's just unheard of. "We'll find out if he's dead later" is as good as saying "He's still alive". Tarqin saying that probably saved Thog's life, just like Kazume saved her life by naming herself. Or Maybe that was Diago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Except neither we nor the people Tarquin was talking to had any reason were expected to fall for Tarquinís impersonation. And Thog himself calls his fate uncertain in the foreword for Good deeds gone unpunished.
    I thought he was talking to Roy, who was one of the main people he needed to fool?
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2019-04-04 at 11:19 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post

    I thought he was talking to Roy, who was one of the main people he needed to fool?
    Right I should have checked, I confused this discussion with that discussion.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Right I should have checked, I confused this discussion with that discussion.
    Oh wow, I forgot about that one. That really lends credence to the theory. Tarquin doesn't say "Thog is dead", he says "I don't work with loose cannons".
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I'm not talking about "In the Order of the Stick comic", I'm talking about in fiction in general. "A character is assumed to have died but later is found to have really been alive, and comes back in a critical moment to surprise everyone and affect the plot" is a fairly common trope, and OOTS follows tropes like nobody's business.

    Imagine how disappointed Elan would be if a pretty significant recurring character ended their character arc in an unknown life state with someone saying "we'll find out if he's dead later" and it turns out they actually are. It's just unheard of. "We'll find out if he's dead later" is as good as saying "He's still alive". Tarqin saying that probably saved Thog's life, just like Kazume saved her life by naming herself. Or Maybe that was Diago?
    Did Elan's musical cues save Trigak?
    There's a reason that Kaume and Daigo's names-equals-survival thing, and most meta-narrative details like that,are played as jokes: Because they are. Thog's been around long enough that him surviving isn't going to be because of a joke. "We never confirmed his death, so he's alive, ha ha!" wouldn't fit the place Thog established for himself in the comicónor, for that matter, the comic that OotS has become.
    It's also worth noting that:
    A. Not everyone assumed to have died without 110% definitive evidence returns. Duh.
    B. OotS does not follow every trope that it can follow. It sometimes makes jokes out of not following them, sometimes plot points, sometimes nothing at all, because there's more to OotS than just the meta stuff.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    I mean, you're entirely right. I think the chances of Thog coming back dropped significantly after Nale died. There is a good chance we'll never see him again. All I'm saying is, given how this strip has always embraced tropes, there is also at least a decent chance that there will be a "he's not really dead!!!" type reveal in the future.

    I'm not sure if you noticed the comment above you, but I pointed out that the dialogue in 822 certainly did not make it seem like Thog was dead. Maybe Tarquin just hadn't heard back from the people digging him out yet, but he usually seems to know everything that's going on.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I mean, you're entirely right. I think the chances of Thog coming back dropped significantly after Nale died. There is a good chance we'll never see him again. All I'm saying is, given how this strip has always embraced tropes, there is also at least a decent chance that there will be a "he's not really dead!!!" type reveal in the future.

    I'm not sure if you noticed the comment above you, but I pointed out that the dialogue in 822 certainly did not make it seem like Thog was dead. Maybe Tarquin just hadn't heard back from the people digging him out yet, but he usually seems to know everything that's going on.
    Or he didn't want Nale to have an outburst or becoming uncooperative when finding out he was dead and Tarquin wasn't going to raise him, despite the resources to do so.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Thog seems like a good asset for Sabine's revenge on Tarquin.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Thog seems like a good asset for Sabine's revenge on Tarquin.
    He's a high-level but easily-distracted beatstick. If Sabine hasn't found some rocket skates, I can't imagine he'd be more useful than basically anyone else Sabine could pick up...assuming Sabine's plan is simple enough that a beatstick is even needed.
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    He's a high-level but easily-distracted beatstick. If Sabine hasn't found some rocket skates, I can't imagine he'd be more useful than basically anyone else Sabine could pick up...assuming Sabine's plan is simple enough that a beatstick is even needed.
    Nale was the one person Thog care most for in the world. Revenge is all the motivation he'd need.
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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I'm not sure if you noticed the comment above you, but I pointed out that the dialogue in 822 certainly did not make it seem like Thog was dead. Maybe Tarquin just hadn't heard back from the people digging him out yet, but he usually seems to know everything that's going on.
    Maybe Tarquin postponed digging Thog out because he had already wanted to kill him, but couldn't straight up murder him when Thog became popular with the crowd. But technically, if he waits a couple of days, Thog should die from his injuries, exposure, and thirst/hunger anyway. Then when the rubble finally gets cleaned up, Tarquin can truthfully say that the gladiator was already dead when they found him.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Nale was the one person Thog care most for in the world. Revenge is all the motivation he'd need.
    I'm not saying Thog wouldn't want to avenge Nale. (I'm not sure he would, both because I'm not sure Thog cared enough about anyone to avenge them and because I'm not 100% sure he understands the concept of death, but that's besides the point.) I'm saying that Thog's stupidity and personal quirks would be enough of a liability to counterbalance his relatively high level. Now that nobody's going for the "evil opposites" theme, there's no reason to spend time looking for and managing Thog when you could just find a bunch of more competent mid-level brawlers who don't need naptimes and babysitters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Maybe Tarquin postponed digging Thog out because he had already wanted to kill him, but couldn't straight up murder him when Thog became popular with the crowd. But technically, if he waits a couple of days, Thog should die from his injuries, exposure, and thirst/hunger anyway. Then when the rubble finally gets cleaned up, Tarquin can truthfully say that the gladiator was already dead when they found him.
    That sounds very Tarquin. Of course, I also wouldn't put it past him to clear the rubble when no civilians were around, stab Thog to death when they figure out where he is, and lie about Thog being dead when they found him.
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    I thought that Miko would redeem herself...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    I thought that Miko would redeem herself...
    I wonder what it would take to get Miko redeemed. It would take a sign that she was fundamentally wrong about her place in the world, but since "lost paladin powers in a flashy show of divine power" didn't work, I'm not sure what would. I'm not even 100% sure "told off by spirit of Soon Kim after having literally destroyed everything the Sapphire Guard was founded to protect" managed to convince her.
    Maybe if one of the Twelve Gods incarnated themselves and told Miko she was doing wrong? Though she'd probably interpret that as "just a test of my resolve," and interpret the god saying "Dude, this isn't a test, you're just crazy" as a way to make the test harder.
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I wonder what it would take to get Miko redeemed. It would take a sign that she was fundamentally wrong about her place in the world, but since "lost paladin powers in a flashy show of divine power" didn't work, I'm not sure what would. I'm not even 100% sure "told off by spirit of Soon Kim after having literally destroyed everything the Sapphire Guard was founded to protect" managed to convince her.
    Maybe if one of the Twelve Gods incarnated themselves and told Miko she was doing wrong? Though she'd probably interpret that as "just a test of my resolve," and interpret the god saying "Dude, this isn't a test, you're just crazy" as a way to make the test harder.
    In short: Miko is crazy.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    A better upbringing, maybe?

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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    I think it was that Gin Jun dude that made her so zealous.

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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    There can be many factors.
    Trauma from losing her parents, harsh upbringing at a monastery, Gin-Jun's influence affecting her, Shojo's faked senility, undiagnosed mental issues and no therapy...

    Take your pick.

  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    "Miko could easily be redeemed if she was raised in a way that didn't leave her anything to be redeemed from" isn't wrong, but it's not interesting, either.
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    He's a high-level but easily-distracted beatstick. If Sabine hasn't found some rocket skates, I can't imagine he'd be more useful than basically anyone else Sabine could pick up...assuming Sabine's plan is simple enough that a beatstick is even needed.
    There is not much high-levelled characters in OotS' setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I wonder what it would take to get Miko redeemed. It would take a sign that she was fundamentally wrong about her place in the world, but since "lost paladin powers in a flashy show of divine power" didn't work, I'm not sure what would.
    She accepted that she was wrong to kill her master after that though, and blamed Roy for tricking her into doing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    There is not much high-levelled characters in OotS' setting.
    Durkon's family alone has a small army's worth of people badass enough to take huge earth elementals head on whitout droppling like flies besides the extra badass half-celestial acquaintance of some cousin that can one-shot them.

    There was also the high-level cleric council where the host is high level enough to have gate scrolls to spare.

    The Order of the Scribble never seemed to have much trouble finding replacements for their casualities.

    The Saphire Guard had several pretty badass members besides Miko (that could solo the OoTS besides Durkon), and they were keeping that high-level goth chick as a prisioner along the rabble.

    The elven kingdom could afford to send several high-level characters (high level enough to teleport and polymorph) to try to liberate the goblin city, although they were no match for the near-epic Redcloak himself using gate properly.

    Tarkin conquered a kingdom for himself once, but then was forced in the run pretty fast and has been keeping his head low pretending to just be a military officer proving there's plenty of high-level character in the continent that pose a threat to him and prevent him from ruling openly.

    Even some random forest bandits were led by a sorceress that could solo the whole OoTS.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-05-19 at 08:46 AM.
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    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Durkon's family alone has a small army's worth of people badass enough to take huge earth elementals head on whitout droppling like flies besides the extra badass half-celestial acquaintance of some cousin that can one-shot them.
    It's been what, one turn since they get here? And seeing they have magic users they could be buffed.
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    There was also the high-level cleric council where the host is high level enough to have gate scrolls to spare.
    One would assume that the heads of each god's church is high level yes. And Gontot had Gate scrolls. He didn't have, as far as we know, Gate scrolls "to spare".

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The Order of the Scribble never seemed to have much trouble finding replacements for their casualities.
    What? They had one. And they never replaced Kraagor, they btoke up over his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The Saphire Guard had several pretty badass members besides Miko (that could solo the OoTS besides Durkon), and they were keeping that high-level goth chick as a prisioner along the rabble.
    That a group of fifty-ish paladins and Clerics only has a handful of high-level characters (that we know of, admittedly) and that a major trade hub has in its jails only four (8 if you count Miko and the Linear Guild) Level 5+ inmates indicates a scarcity of high-level characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The elven kingdom could afford to send several high-level characters (high level enough to teleport and polymorph) to try to liberate the goblin city, although they were no match for the near-epic Redcloak himself using gate properly.
    It took them one year to send one four-people strike team to help their ally, I get the feeling they don't have so many of those laying about.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Tarkin conquered a kingdom for himself once, but then was forced in the run pretty fast and has been keeping his head low pretending to just be a military officer proving there's plenty of high-level character in the continent that pose a threat to him and prevent him from ruling openly.
    He was kicked out by a coalition of twenty-six different kingdoms. I feel like O-Chul's dissertation on the use of high-level in case of Zerg Rush deserves a mention here


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even some random forest bandits were led by a sorceress that could solo the whole OoTS.
    No she couldn't. She could solo Elan, Haley, V and belkar tied up. And she got out of that fight with so little HP left that one unarmed punch from a fighter sent her below zero.
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Also, the Order typically fights with the incompetence of a party five levels below them.

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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Also of course we'll see plenty of high level characters during the course of this comic, that's who the important people are. If they weren't important, they wouldn't be high level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It's been what, one turn since they get here? And seeing they have magic users they could be buffed.
    Name one spell that that can affect multiple allies and provides a significant buff to AC or HP or otherwise significantly improves physical durability and has no visual cues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    One would assume that the heads of each god's church is high level yes. And Gontot had Gate scrolls. He didn't have, as far as we know, Gate scrolls "to spare".
    Considering the power of a gate scroll, any that you don't use right away are spare ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What? They had one. And they never replaced Kraagor, they btoke up over his death.
    Ah sorry I meant Nale's evil mirror party. They kept finding kobolds that could give Belkar a workout 1x1 (no easy feat) plus a druid that was strong enough to almost conquer a city by himself and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That a group of fifty-ish paladins and Clerics only has a handful of high-level characters (that we know of, admittedly) and that a major trade hub has in its jails only four (8 if you count Miko and the Linear Guild) Level 5+ inmates indicates a scarcity of high-level characters.
    "Except those in there for a capital crime, like treason."

    And considering they are super-honorable society, their definition of treason is certainly pretty broad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It took them one year to send one four-people strike team to help their ally, I get the feeling they don't have so many of those laying about.
    What's a year for a elf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He was kicked out by a coalition of twenty-six different kingdoms.
    Twenty-six ants wouldn't budge Tarquin. Power in D&D grows exponentially, so numbers eventually become kinda meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I feel like O-Chul's dissertation on the use of high-level in case of Zerg Rush deserves a mention here
    O-Chul should review his dissertation based in the OoTS experience in shredding through armies like seen with Tarquin's legion.

    And even during the siege of Saphire city, the bad guys only won thanks to having two extremely high level dudes around (Redcloak and Xykon) plus an high-level prisioner escaping and ruining the epic paladin ghost that was the only one that could take on Xykon and Redcloak. Everybody else was a distraction, nobody in the OoTS gets mobbed down by mooks despite O-Chul's dissertation. When they try to do it on Belkar, he just builds a mountain of goblin corpses and goes "I'M A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!" while even the fancy paladin ghost army was down to their leader by the end.

    Really, Xykon alone shows how much of a game changer a high-level character is and that no amount of zerg rush will bring them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No she couldn't. She could solo Elan, Haley, V and belkar tied up. And she got out of that fight with so little HP left that one unarmed punch from a fighter sent her below zero.
    She's a sorceress, they have pretty low HP to begin with, and that fighter being the previous leader would be pretty high level too.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Also, the Order typically fights with the incompetence of a party five levels below them.

    (~~someone else's quote
    Although they goof around a fair bit, they also eat lv 13+ druids for breakfast when they get serious.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-05-19 at 05:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didnít)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Name one spell that that can affect multiple allies and provides a significant buff to AC or HP or otherwise significantly improves physical durability and has no visual cues.
    Mass Resist Fire? Well itís to resist fire but I know no reason why there couldnít be a mass version of HP-buffs. Then again I donít play D&D.
    Not a single buff seen in-comic as a visual cue after being cast.
    Only Logannís Soldiers are fighting the Elementals in melee, Logan, the twins and the casters are in the back so they wouldnít even need a mass version just cast a buff individually on the less sturdy soldiers. Again how many Dwarves do you expect the Elementals could kill in a few instants?


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Considering the power of a gate scroll, any that you don't use right away are spare ones.
    Seeing as Gontor was out of high-level spells and knew in advance he would be, I think these were insurance in case someone attacked the meeting, not spares.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Ah sorry I meant Nale's evil mirror party. They kept finding kobolds that could give Belkar a workout 1x1 (no easy feat) plus a druid that was strong enough to almost conquer a city by himself and whatnot.
    None ignore the kobolds were a threat to Belkar (unless when he couldnít fight back), they hired Pompey because they couldnít find anyone higher level and they had no divine-caster in the third fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    "Except those in there for a capital crime, like treason."

    And considering they are super-honorable society, their definition of treason is certainly pretty broad.
    Ni theyíre not. The Dwarves are super-honorable. This is a society where the king was constantly under threat of assassination and with ninja schools, remember.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    What's a year for a elf?
    365 trances, 1095 meals, five million two hundred twenty-six combat rounds, etc.
    Time does not flow slower for elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Twenty-six ants wouldn't budge Tarquin. Power in D&D grows exponentially, so numbers eventually become kinda meaningless.
    Twenty-six ants? Try 1,000 soldiers on him alone.



    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    O-Chul should review his dissertation based in the OoTS experience in shredding through armies like seen with Tarquin's legion.
    Fleeing on dinosaurback after the vampire used husband powers to force ennemies to fight each other while the ranger created a smoke-screen so that the archers couldnít use their numbers properly is hardly ę*shredding*Ľ.
    P
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    And even during the siege of Saphire city, the bad guys only won thanks to having two extremely high level dudes around (Redcloak and Xykon) plus an high-level prisioner escaping and ruining the epic paladin ghost that was the only one that could take on Xykon and Redcloak. Everybody else was a distraction, nobody in the OoTS gets mobbed down by mooks despite O-Chul's dissertation. When they try to do it on Belkar, he just builds a mountain of goblin corpses and goes "I'M A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!" while even the fancy paladin ghost army was down to their leader by the end.
    Belkar was littered under damage marks after that, he couldnít have kept it up if he hadnít found a skull of infinite fireballs, the city had already fallen by the time Miko did anything noteworthy. Vaarsuvius and Durkon used up all their spells mostly on minions. Also the city is Azure City, not ę*sapphire city*Ľ.
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Really, Xykon alone shows how much of a game changer a high-level character is and that no amount of zerg rush will bring them down.
    Xykon is epic-level and even rater than high level characters



    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    She's a sorceress, they have pretty low HP to begin with, and that fighter being the previous leader would be pretty high level too.
    Which doesnít negate the fact that, contrary to what you said she would have lost against the entire Order since Roy is a high-level fighter too. She probably would have lost had Belkar been free too.
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