Hilgya - Next death candidate?

[Onyavar]

Hilgya still sticks around with the order, although her revenge on Durkon seems to be through.
Why? Does she have a plan to still inflict more harm on Durkon? Make him suffer justice (in her own, twisted way of doing justice)?

I think so.

My reasoning goes like this: In the past, people already called the Giant on the "awful/absent father, angelic/caring mother" trope. Roy, Haley, Durkon and Elan have exactly such parents. Vaarsuvius also fits that stereotype for their own children (even if we can't assign a gender: in their case it's just "absent parent vs. caring parent").

So, it's time for a subversion. Hilgya obviously provides for Kudzu in the best way possible, I want to point out that the comic has perfectly established that fact.

I know that some mothers love their children and care for them, but never wanted them in the first place, and resent them (more, or less) for suddenly springing into their lifes. I think that this might be the case here: Hilgya obviously resents Durkon. Kudzu, the unplanned product of their one-night-stand, looks just like his father. I don't know how much Kudzu impedes her in her daily life, but since she is a single mother slash adventurer, the best guess would be: a lot. Most important indications however: she named him after a tree-clinging pest plant, and she even handed Kudzu over to Undurkon. That action wasn't "against anything she stands for". Does she love Kudzu and want the best for him? I think so, yes. Does she want to make Durkon suffer? Oh, yes! Would she mind if Durkon relieves her of Kudzu? Let's just assume that the answer is again: Yes.

Hmm... This is a fantasy world, and she is an evil character. Just signing over the paternal duties to Durkon would be a mundane solution, and it would be out of character for her. She needs to rant and complain, and she needs a plan that permanently forces Kudzu on Durkon. That Durkon would cooperate willingly probably doesn't occur to her. I think she would expect him to politely decline, or weasel out of his responsability.

She wants [my assumption!] Durkon to live with the results of his errors; she wants getting him to take over a burden that he inflicted on her; and whatever other crude reasonings she can invent. And she has tested him to be a traditionalist dwarf and bound to honor. She might not appreciate these values, but she sure can abuse them.

So, I think her intent is to make Durkon promise that he will take care of Kudzu himself, if she dies.
Then tempt fate [Exarch?], get killed in the process and refuse to be raised; (after)live happily ever after.
Or, more drama: She gets killed together with Kudzu, but leaves only diamonds for one resurrection. We know that children go the same plane as their parents (Eric!); Kudzu would thus go to the LE afterlife. No way that Durkon would NOT raise Kudzu first; and of course he also wouldn't think of it as a punishment.

[The Pilgrim]

Or... she will try something stupid on Durkon, again, this time the Order executes her, and nobody cares to raise her as the only people honour-bound to do so, her clan, lacks the resources to do so due to a recent bankruptcy.

[Peelee]

So, it's time for a subversion. Hilgya obviously provides for Kudzu in the best way possible, I want to point out that the comic has perfectly established that fact.

Wearing a baby on your chest while actively going into battle for petty revenge is a definition of "care for the baby in the best way possible" I was previously unfamiliar with.

[MartianInvader]

Some counterpoints to your arguments:

-Hilgya has already taken revenge on Durkon, and doesn't seem at all intimidated by the Order while doing so. She could always just leave him dead and then plane shift away instead of this overly-elaborate plan.

-Durkon has clearly demonstrated to her that he wants to take care of Kudzu by asking her to marry him. Regardless of how she responded, it's hard to believe she thinks leaving Kudzu with him would be suicidal.

-Hilgya has done a lot for her own betterment. There's zero indication she's suicidal or wants to end her life.

-Hilgya has specifically demonstrated that she doesn't trust clerics of Thor with Kudzu. *Maybe* she would place more trust in one who is also Kudzu's father, but I think it's clear that she's not willing to just get rid of him. She's shown numerous times she cares about him (covering his eyes, worrying about his little lungs, etc.), so it's hard to believe she resents him as much as you imply.

-Handing Kudzu over to Durkon* didn't mean it wasn't "against anything she stands for", it means either a) it wasn't against her fundamental nature (a higher bar IMO), or b) it was against her fundamental nature but she failed her second saving throw. And yes, there's an argument to be made about how unlikely that is, but the fact of the matter is she failed her first saving throw, so it's certainly possible.

[Fyraltari]

Handing Kudzu over to Durkon* didn't mean it wasn't "against anything she stands for", it means either a) it wasn't against her fundamental nature (a higher bar IMO), or b) it was against her fundamental nature but she failed her second saving throw. And yes, there's an argument to be made about how unlikely that is, but the fact of the matter is she failed her first saving throw, so it's certainly possible.

I don't see how "come here" could be against anybody's nature. She didn't hand Kudzu over, Durkon* took him, she doesn't get re-rolled for reacting to her environment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see how "come here" could be against anybody's nature.

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though. But yes, she probably didn't get a saving throw for a movement request, and as stupid as it is, it seems that getting her baby snatched away doesn't trigger one either (although I remain skeptical that you can remove a baby from a carrier without help from the person wearing the carrier, I am told that some ones do allow it)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.

Hey now, the question is whether the order is against her nature, not wether taking orders is.

But yes, she probably didn't get a saving throw for a movement request, and as stupid as it is, it seems that getting her baby snatched away doesn't trigger one either (although I remain skeptical that you can remove a baby from a carrier without help from the person wearing the carrier, I am told that some ones do allow it)

Grey Wolf

I am torn between "A Wizard Cleric Did It" and " "The Dragons are fine but that baby carrier is completely unrealistic" is your complaint?"

Can I do both?

[MartianInvader]

For the various carriers I've seen, it's perfectly possible for someone else to get the baby out if the wearer is standing reasonably still. Heck, for some real-world baby carriers it's hard to get the baby out *without* the help of someone not wearing it.

[Resileaf]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.

By that logic, it's against everyone's nature to take orders from a vampire and they should get a saving throw for everything they're ordered to do.
If "You hate being told what to do" didn't work on Haley after she shot V in the back, I see no reason for it to work on Hilgya for walking toward Durkon.

[D.One]

For the various carriers I've seen, it's perfectly possible for someone else to get the baby out if the wearer is standing reasonably still. Heck, for some real-world baby carriers it's hard to get the baby out *without* the help of someone not wearing it.

In fact, for a carrier located as Kudzu's is, it's usually easier for someone else to get the baby out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By that logic, it's against everyone's nature to take orders from a vampire and they should get a saving throw for everything they're ordered to do.
If "You hate being told what to do" didn't work on Haley after she shot V in the back, I see no reason for it to work on Hilgya for walking toward Durkon.

Haley doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, hate being told what to do. In fact, she is downright relieved when Roy is back in charge, having hated the leadership position. There are arguments against what I said -which I acknowledged already - but this is not one of them.

In fact, for a carrier located as Kudzu's is, it's usually easier for someone else to get the baby out.

Gross over-generalization. With the one I used, positioned exactly the same way, it was impossible for anyone to take my child out without my explicit assistance, and I was perfectly able to load and unload my child without any outside help (although it was easier if my SO directed the legs, it was not necessary for them to do it). But as we discovered once when my hands were busy with groceries, it was impossible to remove the child without me helping.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I just don't think "let the baby's father hold it for a minute" would be against her nature.

As for Hilgya dying, my gold is on "no". I think it would feel off.

[Jasdoif]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.

I wonder if calling Loki "nobody" would amuse him.

[Resileaf]

Haley doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, hate being told what to do. In fact, she is downright relieved when Roy is back in charge, having hated the leadership position. There are arguments against what I said -which I acknowledged already - but this is not one of them.

Technically, she hated being in charge, it doesn't mean she enjoys being ordered around either. In any case, it was Roy's own argument, and I would personally think he knows enough about Haley to not have said that without meaning it. But maybe he could have been mistaken about her as well, who knows.

Gross over-generalization. With the one I used, positioned exactly the same way, it was impossible for anyone to take my child out without my explicit assistance, and I was perfectly able to load and unload my child without any outside help (although it was easier if my SO directed the legs, it was not necessary for them to do it). But as we discovered once when my hands were busy with groceries, it was impossible to remove the child without me helping.
Grey Wolf

Maybe your modern carrier is like that, but Hilgya is wearing a medieval baby carrier. It can't be as sophisticated than yours.

[MartianInvader]

"Hating being told what to do while simultaneously hating telling other people what to do" is not only consistent, it's a clear hallmark/manifestation of being Chaotic.

[Liquor Box]

I think that Hilgya is a fair candidate for the next person to die in the comic, because she is proximate, not a member of the order, and it is not clear that she serves a further narrative purpose (Kudzu also fills these same criteria, but I don't think the Giant would kill a baby character without fanfare).

[Ruck]

Or... she will try something stupid on Durkon, again, this time the Order executes her, and nobody cares to raise her as the only people honour-bound to do so, her clan, lacks the resources to do so due to a recent bankruptcy.

This certainly fits in the "dramatic irony / caused by their own actions" section.

I'm not convinced the Giant is going to kill the mother of a small child here, but there are certainly ways he could do so that would be keeping with the themes of the story and would feel appropriate.

[mucat]

I'm not convinced the Giant is going to kill the mother of a small child here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html

That's what Judy was counting on.

[Ildirin]

I don't see it happening any time in the near foreseeable future of this comic, especially not for any of the reasons about passing off Kudzu to Durkon in the opening post.

I will say to Hilgya's small credit that, though it's a small sample to draw from, she doesn't seem to be keeping tabs on her family and ensuring they remain in poverty. I don't find the scenario that she's following Durkon around to exact more revenge particularly likely.

I could imagine a possible scenario where Hilgya takes her brand of disproportionate revenge out on the wrong person, who has a similar or worse ethical outlook, leading to her death.

[Rrmcklin]

Hilgya's not going anywhere because a large part of Durkon's life was growing up with only one parent (albeit a good one, and a loving extended surrogate family) and Kudzu's to be in a better situation than him.

I don't think that totally tracks because Hilgya's a terrible person and I can easily see her being a terrible influence and danger to Kudzu, but, alas that's how this story is to go. She and Durkon will likely iron out some compromise by the end of the story.

[B. Dandelion]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. So she'd have it rubbed in her face, in the most direct and terrifying fashion possible, that she was wrong about there being a "loophole" out of the whole bargain, and her only way out of eternal damnation would be to accept help from the man whose adherence to the rules she'd held in contempt.

[Keltest]

Hilgya's not going anywhere because a large part of Durkon's life was growing up with only one parent (albeit a good one, and a loving extended surrogate family) and Kudzu's to be in a better situation than him.

I don't think that totally tracks because Hilgya's a terrible person and I can easily see her being a terrible influence and danger to Kudzu, but, alas that's how this story is to go. She and Durkon will likely iron out some compromise by the end of the story.

Is there some reason you think "kid gets left with functionally abusive parent, no strings attached" is a likely outcome?

[Jasdoif]

Unless/Until Kudzu dies, I doubt Hilgya will be in particular danger of dying herself. Not that both of them living, or both of them dying, are exceptionally unlikely; but the complications and wasted drama opportunities for leaving Kudzu with a dead mother are rather numerous.

[Keltest]

Unless/Until Kudzu dies, I doubt Hilgya will be in particular danger of dying herself. Not that both of them living, or both of them dying, are exceptionally unlikely; but the complications and wasted drama opportunities for leaving Kudzu with a dead mother are rather numerous.

I mean, we just spent an entire book establishing that Durkon has a big extended family in this town. Its not like their only options are "leave him with Hilgya" or "take him into battle themselves".

[Jasdoif]

Its not like their only options are "leave him with Hilgya" or "take him into battle themselves".

It's true; killing Hilgya to more easily hand Kudzu to surrogate parents is totally an option. A petty and/or wasteful option, depending on if we're talking in-universe and/or out-of-universe, but still an option.

[Rrmcklin]

Is there some reason you think "kid gets left with functionally abusive parent, no strings attached" is a likely outcome?

Well, I assume that Kudzu is going to grow up with both his parents for the reasons I stated, but he can't come with Durkon, and Hilgya's not leaving him with anyone else. Ergo, he and Hilgya are probably leaving the story at the same time.

I'm not really sure what's unclear here, I'm not describing what I want to happen, just what I think is likely. Durkon himself has expressed no interest in taking Kudzu away from her. He wants to be in Kudzu's life, not for her to be out of it.

[Kish]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. So she'd have it rubbed in her face, in the most direct and terrifying fashion possible, that she was wrong about there being a "loophole" out of the whole bargain, and her only way out of eternal damnation would be to accept help from the man whose adherence to the rules she'd held in contempt.

The thing is, Hilgya's talking about a loophole is the closest I can remember to an indication that "honorable" is significantly different from "in battle or the line of duty," and I don't think it's terribly close. If Hilgya gets killed by a vampire, she'll go to somewhere-not-Hel's-domain because she died in battle. She'd need to die of accident, disease, or old age to go to Hel, and while that could easily happen at the end of her long life--Thor-worshiping dwarves argue over who gets to sacrifice whom to save the other one from the blizzard, and Hilgya can't see any reason to do anything other than shrug "I'm good with either one of you sacrificing yourselves to save me"--it seems very unlikely to happen today.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, like, Hilgya's not wrong about how the position the dwarves have been put in by the gods being unfair and terrible, and I don't think the story would create a situation that implies her trying to fight against it is wrong.

Or that the only "right" way is Durkon's way, for that matter.

[Peelee]

Also how would Durkon know where she went?

[Pablo360]

Also how would Durkon know where she went?

Speak Wit' Dead. We've seen him use it before, even.

Not that I personally think any of this is at all likely to go down. Just, if it did go down, Durkon has Speak Wit' Dead.

I just don't think Hilgya will die at this point in the story. Durkon and Belkar defeating Greg felt like the climax, we've gotten an end-of-plotline infodump, and the remaining spawn are pretty weak so I'm guessing the rest of this storyline will just be the mop-up with few remaining complications and the complete and total derailing of Hel's plans, maybe with a single surviving vampire who escapes to imply that not everything has been settled in the Dwarven lands. I just feel like Hilgya is an important enough character that if she were going to die, she'd have done it already.