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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

    I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
    It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
    Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.


    What's Dark Imperium?
    Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

    Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

    How much does it cost?
    Placeholder Answer.

    Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

    Okay, I've got everything. What next?
    Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

    However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

    How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
    The recommended minimum is 750.
    However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

    As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

    Comments on Power Rating.

    What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
    ...A lot.


    I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
    First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

    Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

    Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

    And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

    Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
    Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

    If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

    Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

    How much terrain do I need?
    Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

    I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
    Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

    However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

    So which Allies should I pick?
    Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

    I can't paint.
    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

    Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
    Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

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    Previous Threads


    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-03-19 at 03:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

    Spoiler: Craftworlds 2000 points
    Show
    Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
    HQ
    Warlock: 55
    Eldrad: 135

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    10 Guardians: 80
    10 Guardians: 80

    Elites
    5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


    Heavy Support:
    Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
    5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

    Battalion Detachment (Biel-Tan)
    HQ
    Spiritseer: 65
    Avatar: 220

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

    Elites
    7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

    Fast Attack
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

    Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
    HQ
    Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

    Fast Attack
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


    Total: 2000


    The Missions will be ITC.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2019-01-18 at 11:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

    Spoiler: Craftworlds 2000 points
    Show
    Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
    HQ
    Warlock: 55
    Eldrad: 135

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    10 Guardians: 80
    10 Guardians: 80

    Elites
    5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


    Heavy Support:
    Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
    5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

    Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
    HQ
    Spiritseer: 65
    Avatar: 220

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

    Elites
    7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

    Fast Attack
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

    Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
    HQ
    Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

    Fast Attack
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


    Total: 2000


    The Missions will be ITC.
    Just got done winning a 2k game vs Crimson Fists. Your list is so very different than what I would play, that Im eager to see how well you do :). So lets hope the strands of fate favor you, and the primitives be left in the dust.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

    Spoiler: Craftworlds 2000 points
    Show
    Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
    HQ
    Warlock: 55
    Eldrad: 135

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    10 Guardians: 80
    10 Guardians: 80

    Elites
    5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


    Heavy Support:
    Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
    5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

    Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
    HQ
    Spiritseer: 65
    Avatar: 220

    Troops
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
    5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

    Elites
    7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

    Fast Attack
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
    1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

    Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
    HQ
    Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

    Fast Attack
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
    1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


    Total: 2000


    The Missions will be ITC.
    Is that Biel-Tandetachment supposed to be an Outrider, or is that meant to be a Battalion?
    Otherwise, in my very non-skilled thinkings: you seem to have only 40 troops models, will that be enough? Im guessing the Fire Dragons go in the Falcon, assuming I'm remembering it being able to transport units correctly. Any character to go with them? I'm guessing the warlock if any, as it can buff them after they disembark. You only seem to have heavy weapons on 4 of your models, and they cant really hide behind other models, so its possible they can be picked off. I know eldar can fake heavy weapons with their basic guns, but its still risky to have all your big reliable fire power on that few of models.

    Otherwise it seems really cool, and scary to be at the barrel end of that many guns. Hope the tournament goes well for you.
    Last edited by Saambell; 2019-01-18 at 11:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Just got done winning a 2k game vs Crimson Fists. Your list is so very different than what I would play, that Im eager to see how well you do :). So lets hope the strands of fate favor you, and the primitives be left in the dust.
    Thanks. You typically play more competitive then me, even at the most extreme, my meta is relatively soft.
    Here are my opponents for example:
    1. Dark Eldar
    2. Ultramarines with Guilliman
    3. Tyranids (my cousin)]
    4. Thousands Sons
    5. Imperial Guard Space Wolves
    6. Craftworld Eldar (me)
    7. Ultramarines
    8. Iron Hands/Grey Knights

    Not entirely ordered, as there are a lot of ties in the top 8. The exact ranking won't matter anyways. The Imperial Guard player dropped out (he's not up to a tournament), so the replacement player is Space Wolves. The Iron Hands/Grey Knights player is a complete mystery. How he got to that ranking, nobody knows. It's weird, even for my meta. Particularly considering there was a Death Guard player running Mortarion and a Knight Castellan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    Is that Biel-Tandetachment supposed to be an Outrider, or is that meant to be a Battalion?
    Otherwise, in my very non-skilled thinkings: you seem to have only 40 troops models, will that be enough? Im guessing the Fire Dragons go in the Falcon, assuming I'm remembering it being able to transport units correctly. Any character to go with them? I'm guessing the warlock if any, as it can buff them after they disembark. You only seem to have heavy weapons on 4 of your models, and they cant really hide behind other models, so its possible they can be picked off. I know eldar can fake heavy weapons with their basic guns, but its still risky to have all your big reliable fire power on that few of models.

    Otherwise it seems really cool, and scary to be at the barrel end of that many guns. Hope the tournament goes well for you.
    It was meant to be a battalion yes. Yeah, the Fire Dragons can be in the Falcon. I could put a character inside, but there isn't much point to it. I typically don't buff them, preferring to buff either the Shining Spears or Dark Reapers. Besides my best buff (Doom), works on everyone shooting the target. Dark Reapers can move and shoot without penalty, so what I do is I hide them in ruins. They pop to the top floor, fire, and I activate a stratagem to make them move after shooting to hide them away again. If they catch my Dark Reapers, my Vyper with two missile launchers can do the same thing. My other anti-tank is my Avatar and Autarch. The Fire Dragons are mostly a bonus, and yeah, I'm not expecting the Falcon to live long.

    It should, the only horde player is my cousin, and he prefers big beasties, usually. Well, the Thousand Son player might have a ton of Tzaangors, I have no idea. The Dark Eldar player has 90 troops though.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Silly question: On my Flyrant, I can take the Warlord trait Alien Cunning, which lets me redeploy him after the Deployment phase ends at the beginning of the first battle round. In the Deployment Phase, I am required to set up at least half of the points of my army on the battlefield. Let's say I comply with this, putting about ~900 points of stuff in reserve in a 2k list and the rest (including the Flyrant) onto the battlefield. Then, with the free redeploy, I put my Flyrant into reserves. Over half my army is in reserves, but it's no longer the Deployment Phase (in which I complied with the rule). Is this legal?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Flyrant is not on the field to be redployed.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Flyrant is not on the field to be redployed.
    In the example I'd be deploying him normally (not into reserve) in regular deployment, then use Alien Cunning to redeploy him into reserve.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Baratheon View Post
    ...but it's no longer the Deployment Phase...
    I'll let you read Swooping Assault again, and then let you answer the question.
    The key hint is that you just answered it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Played a game with my friends. It was pretty massive - 7000 points on each side, and my side got thoroughly stomped. Unfortunately I didn't have much chance to see what all my stuff could do, because I blew my first two psychic phases to terrible dice rolls, and the heldrake died without ever getting to do more than fire once.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Guide to Imperial Knights
    Honour Through Fealty

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    Questor Allegiance: Basically, you're going to pick up either <Imperialis> or <Mechanicus>. This will make a major difference in what Relics and Stratagems you can use.

    Might of the Knight Worlds
    If your Detachment isn't a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (SHAD), one of your non-Armiger Knights gains the <Character> Keyword. This has positives and negatives. On the one hand, your Knight can Heroically Intervene (however remember to leave room for your massive base size). On the other hand, your massive T8/5+ 20 Wound model can no longer block for other Characters because Characters don't block for other Characters.

    That said, if you aren't going to take a SHAD, you only need one non-Armiger Knight to get CPs. Or you can take three for even more CPs.

    If your Detachment isn't a SHAD, you also gain the benefits of Household Traditions. That said, it's important to remember that you still get your Keywords in a SHAD, which means despite not getting the Tradition, a Knight in a SHAD can still use relevant Keyword-specific Warlord Traits, Relics and Stratagems.

    Household Traditions
    Questor Imperialis
    • Terryn; When you Advance or Charge, roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest. This is a big deal because of how House Terryn plays.
    • Griffith; +1 Attack if you Charge or Intervene. Additionally, every single Knight you own can now Intervene. Unfortunately, this House pretty much sucks, because in order for this Tradition to work, you have to make it into Melee in the first place. Also, as previously mentioned, Heroically Intervening with a Knight isn't exactly easy due to the base size.
    • Hawkshroud; Count as having double Wounds for the purposes of degradation. This is actually really helpful, as Knights are typically fire magnets.
    • Cadmus; Re-roll 1s to wound in the Fight phase against models with 12 or less Wounds. This actually has a lot of usefulness, because '12 or less wounds' covers pretty much everything in the game except for the larger Vehicles - and opposing Knights. The issue is, of course, as always, getting into Melee in the first place.
    • Mortan; +1 to hit in the Fight phase, in the first turn of combat.

    Questor Mechanicus
    • Raven; Heavy weapons are Assault weapons. Advance and shoot with no penalties.
    • Taranis; Ignore Wounds (6+). Not as useful as it looks. Even if your Knights are fire magnets - which they are.
    • Krast; Re-roll to hit in the first turn of combat. In addition, re-roll to hit in the Fight phase against <Titanic> units...Like, all the time.
    • Vulker; Re-roll to hit with ranged weapons against the closest enemy unit. This is really good, or really terrible. It depends how your opponent plays.


    Knights. Like. The Fight Phase.

    Freeblades
    Even in a SHAD, you still get your stuff. Pick a single Quality, or randomly roll twice. Then, for Burdens, either choose two, or randomly roll once. Every turn, you have to make a Ld test, if you fail, you get stuck with your Burdens until your next turn.

    Qualities
    1. Re-roll 1s to hit against units with 10 or more models.
    2. Re-roll 1s to hit against your opponent's Warlord. Additionally, Objective Secured.
    3. Heroically Intervene (6").
    4. Roll a d6. Get a random bonus that may or may not work with the Knight class that you've chosen.
    5. +1W and Ld. What the ****'s that gonna do?
    6. Get an extra re-roll per round.

    The only one that's actually any good is #1. Is that worth giving up your <Household> Keyword? **** no.
    At least neither Canis Rex or Sir Hekhtur goof'd and picked bad ones.

    Burdens - Remember, this only apply if you fail your Ld test (9).
    1. Cool beans. You're done for the turn.
    2. Cool beans. You're done for the turn.
    3. This isn't so bad, as you hit on more than just '6'...And negs to hit actually work in your favor.
    4. Can only declare attacks and Charges against the closest enemy unit. This sucks hard. Or maybe it doesn't.
    5. Can't Fall Back and BS6+. This doesn't seem so bad. Except that Falling Back is really important for Knights, as it lets them super jump. But hey, if you're not going to use that extremely tactical move and you're not interested in having a Knight that shoot (e.g; Gallant). Then it's fine.
    6. Must move towards closest enemy, and must declare a Charge against every unit within 12" - eat Overwatch.

    3 and 4 are probably your go-tos. Never, ever pick 1 or 2. Both Canis Rex and Hekhtur picked #4.

    At the end of the day, you pick Freeblades to forge a narrative. You don't pick them 'cause they're good.

    Warlord Traits
    1. Once per game, re-roll Damage or a Saving Throw. Also, +1 CP. ...So...Nothing.
    2. 4++ against ranged weapons.
    3. +1 Attack is nothing.
    4. +2 Advance and Charge Aura. This is huge - for reasons explained later.
    5. When you roll a '6' to wound for one of your weapons, do an additional Mortal Wound. Whatever.
    6. Enemy units get -1 or -2 to their Ld...So...Nothing.

    Terryn; Re-roll Charges.
    Griffith; When you complete a Charge, on a 4+ the enemy unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds.
    Hawkshroud; +1 to hit against a selected unit for the entire game.
    Cadmus; Damage in the Fight phase is reduced by 1.
    Mortan; Your opponent has -1 to hit from 18" away. Not bad...But you have to be Mortan to get it.

    Raven; +1 to Saves against attacks with AP-1...So basically you ignore weapons with AP-1. Except you kill Knights by targeting them with -2.
    Taranis; '6' to wound in the Shooting phase causes an additional AP. Not bad.
    Krast; Re-roll 1s to hit.
    Vulker; Wound rolls of 3 or less always fail. Basically...3s fail to wound. Which sucks for Blood Angels and people who spam Lascannons.

    Ultimately, Ion Bulwark is always going to be your main Warlord Trait, unless you picked Landstrider because you're doing a thing.

    Tactical Objectives
    11. Hold the Line combined with Area Denial. Except you do have the option of achieving one or the other.
    12. A <Knight Character> has to destroy an enemy Character in the Fight phase.
    13. Make a successful Charge - or Charges - using a <Knight>.
    14. Gain a VP per <Vehicle> or <Monster> destroyed by a <Knight>.
    15. Your opponent gets to give you a DefObX card that must be Defended by an <Imperial Knight>. Remove this card from your deck every time.
    16. Your opponent gets to pick a unit in their army that you have to destroy using an <Imperial Knight> unit. Think about removing this one from your deck.

    If you plan on having a Knight as your Warlord, you may want to strongly consider having Melee-orientated Knights in your army list.


    Spoiler: Stratagems
    Show
    Ion Aegis; For 2 CPs, all <Imperium> units within 6" gain the benefit of a <Dominus> Knight's invulnerable.

    Noble Sacrifice; For 2 CPs, explode on a 4+. Not really worth it on non-Dominus Knights.

    Thunderstomp; After one of your Titanic units Fights, roll a 4+, the enemy unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds.

    Skyreaper Protocols; Armiger Helverins re-roll to hit against units with <Fly>. Can be extremely useful.

    Rotate Ion Shields; +1 to your Invulnerable save. Very good.

    Heirlooms of the Household; Yep. Remember that for the purposes of Exalted Court, each of your Knight Detachments may already start with a Character.

    Exalted Court; You can give more non-Armiger Knights the <Character> Keyword, and, additionally, you may give them a Warlord Trait. This Stratagem is very, very strong. Especially combined with Heirlooms.

    Pack Hunters; After one of your Armiger Warglaives completes a Charge, other friendly Warglaives within 12" can re-roll to Charge. Not bad.

    Oathbreaker Guidance System; For 3 CPs, one of your Shieldbreaker Missiles can ignore Line of Sight, and also target Characters. Considering that Shieldbreakers are already AP-4 and ignore Invulnerable saves, a lucky Damage roll can potentially win you the game on Turn 1. There's an extremely good reason that this Stratagem is 3 CPs, and most people on the receiving end will tell you that it should be 4 or even 5. This is extremely strong when combined with Order of Companions (House Raven), for a combined total of 6 CPs. Hope you brought your CP banks.

    Full Tilt; For 2 CPs, Advance and Charge in the same turn. This is exceptionally strong when combined with the House Terryn Tradition, and the Landstrider Warlord Trait.

    Devastating Reach; It actually costs a CP to attack models on the first floor of a Ruin.

    Chainsweep; After Fighting with a Reaper Chainsword, roll a 6 for every enemy model within 3" - they take a Mortal Wound.

    Death Grip; Another extremely strong Stratagem that blows the Stratagem right above it, straight out of the competition. After you Fight, make an additional attack. If you hit, do D3 Mortal Wounds. Make an opposed Strength test (Knights have S8, the highest base in the game). If your opponent fails, they take another D3 Mortal Wounds. Repeat until your opponent's model either dies, or succeeds the Strength test. This Stratagem is so brutal it's not even funny. For 1 CP, you get to kill practically any single non-Vehicle model in the game. All's you have to do is hit. You can be House Mortan or Krast. But WS2+ with a CP re-roll is fine enough.

    Bonded Oathsmen; Armiger Knights can perform Heroic Interventions if a non-Armiger was Charged within 6".

    Questor Imperialis
    • Ironhail Heavy Stubbers; Change the AP of all Heavy Stubbers in the entire Detachment to AP-1. This Stratagem is useful when you're spamming Armigers, Knight Paladins, and Knight Crusaders with Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons. It doesn't sound that good. But it's only 1 CP, and it does affect your entire Detachment...So the more Heavy Stubbers you have, the better it is.
    • Valiant Last Stand; If your Knight doesn't explode when it dies, it can Shoot or Fight again as if it had 1 wound left.
    • Sally Forth!; An Armiger unit (so, up to 3 of them) can be placed into Reinforcements and arrive from any table edge. This can be very strong. So, because it's 3 CPs, make sure you're getting your points' worth - Armigers come in Squadrons.


    Slayers of Shadows; A <Mortan> unit gets to ignore modifiers to hit in the Shooting phase. Nice.
    Glory in Honour; A <Terryn> unit Fights again immediately. This Stratagem sets itself apart because it happens immediately, before your opponent gets to attack, it doesn't happen at the end of the phase. For 3 CPs this is very well worth it.
    Dragonslayer; A <Griffith> model gets +1 to wound against models with 10 or more wounds. You don't need to pay 2 CPs for this. Wounding opposing models is never really Knights' problem.
    Bio-Scryer Cogitator Array; A <Cadmus> model can shoot at anything that sets up within 12". This one costs 3 CPs, because you're not pulling -1 to hit.
    Staunch Allies; When your opponent declares a Charge against an <Imperium> unit within 12" of a <Hawkshroud> unit, pay 2 CPs, and your Knight can Overwatch as well. Additionally, the model can Heroically Intervene 2D6". The first part is pretty good. The second? ...Not so much. As previously mentioned, the bigger Knights can't really Heroically Intervene because Terrain and model-placement will rarely ever let them do that. Worse, is the fact that the movement is random.

    However, additionally, <Mechanicus> Knights gain another slight benefit because of how they interact with Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus. However, due to the AdMech book, not really being that good, you shouldn't really take that into consideration over the benefits of Stratagems and Relics. However, if you have decided that you'll like to be a Mechanicus House...That's cool. You have a few extra options.

    Questor Mechanicus
    • Benevolence of the Machine God; Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for a phase. Normally, Stratagems like this only work in the Psychic phase. But you can actually do this one whenever you want, multiple times per turn. Particularly against armies like Death Guard who do Mortal Wounds both in the Psychic and in the Fight phase.
    • Machine Spirit Resurgent; At the start of the turn, one of your Knights may spend the whole turn in the 'top row' of its damage table.
    • Cognis Heavy Stubbers; Garbage.


    Order of Companions; For 3 CPs, a <Raven> unit re-rolls all 1s during the entire shooting phase; Number of shots, to hit, to wound and Damage. This can be extremely strong.
    Our Darkest Hour; When a <Taranis> Knight dies and doesn't explode; On a 4+ get back up. Since Stratagems are used per phase, not per turn, a Knight can potentially get up two or three times in the same turn. However, for 3 CPs using this Stratagem multiple times in the same turn is extremely CP hungry.
    Saturation Bombardment; When a <Vulker> unit rolls an unmodified 6 to hit in the Shooting phase, do 2 hits.
    Controlled Aggression; When a <Krast> unit rolls an unmodified 6 to hit in the Fight phase, do 2 hits. Or, against <Chaos> units, 3 hits.


    Spoiler: Heirlooms of the Noble Houses
    Show
    Sanctuary; Makes your Invulnerable work in Melee. This will almost always be your main Heirloom, as in Melee are where Knights are weakest - and even then, not even that weak!

    Ravager; This Relic is super strong. However, the big problem with Ravager is that to get it...You need a Reaper Chainsword. When it comes to comparing Chainsweep vs. Death Grip...The Thunderstrike Gauntlets are just better. Speaking of which...

    The Paragon Gauntlet; This is by far the best Heirloom in the entire book...On the right model. For any model that isn't a Gallant, go with Sanctuary. On the surface, it's just a Thunderstrike that doesn't take the neg to hit, right? Sure it is. But not taking negs to hit is really important, when you're WS2, and you're trying to use Death Grip. At this point we can pretty much stop, because all the best Heirlooms are the first three...

    Armour of the Sainted Ion; 2+ Save. This is good for Dominus Knights who typically don't like getting into Melee. However, getting into Melee isn't always your choice, and suddenly you wish you'd had Sanctuary. At the end of the day, Knights don't need a 2+ Save.

    Endless Fury; 14+(14/6) = 2 extra shots, plus 2 extra hits. So for the price of blowing your Heirloom slot, pick up 4 extra attacks over a normal Gatling Cannon. Not really worth it.

    Judgement; No.

    Skyshield; Hell no.

    Questor Imperialis
    • Helm of the Nameless Warrior; You take this for 'friendly' games where you want to take a Knight, but you don't hate your friends so much that you take a Knight Gallant.
    • Banner of Macharius Triumphant; It's a nice idea. But, if you're using <Imperium> Allies, they shouldn't even really be taking Morale tests anyway, and if you want to hold Objectives, do it the normal way - spam cheap Infantry. Don't blow your Heirloom on something that sucks.
    • Traitor's Pyre; This one is okay. Again, if you've picked up the Knight Valiant, that's fine. Re-rolling to wound makes it slightly better.

    Thunder of Voltoris; Look, if you're running Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons, you're doing it wrong. If you're running <Terryn> RFBCs, you're doing it double wrong. If you're blowing your Heirloom on a House Terryn RFBC...Something is wrong.
    Mark of the Lance; It's <Griffith>'s Warlord Trait, except better.
    Angel's Grace; This is the only reason to play <Hawkshroud>. It protects your Knight against Psychic Mortal Wounds - which happens to be the worst match-up for Knights. Very much worth taking over Sanctuary, even if you do plan on getting your Knight into Melee.
    The Hunter's Eye; <Cadmus> model ignores Cover. Remember what this was a White Scars Relic?
    Honour's Bite; <Mortan> Chainsword that isn't as good as Ravager. Next.

    Questor Mechanicus
    • Mark of the Omnissiah; Regen wounds per turn. Not worth it. Either your opponent plinks away at you dealing very little damage anyway. Or your Knight is so blasted that healing 1 - even D3 - Wounds wont help.
    • The Helm Dominatus; This is actually really good, if you're planning to run Armigers. Either because you're running solo-Knights (strongly not recommended), or you're making a Super-Heavy Detachment using a single Titanic Knight and multiple Armigers. Very useful. Rather than making your individual Knight win more (e.g; The Paragon Gauntlet), you can force multiply your Armigers which is always handy.
    • Cawl's Wrath; Nope.

    The Banner Inviolate; <Raven> models get re-roll 1s to hit in the Fight phase. It's like The Helm Dominatus, but you don't need to take Armigers.
    Fury of Mars; It's a Thermal Cannon that can roll an extra D6 on Damage all of the time, instead of only under half range. 'It has its uses', sure. That is, it goes on a Knight Crusader, and that's it, where it can sort of match the range of the Gatling Cannon on the other arm. Do not ever put 'Fury on a Knight Errant. You're using your Errant totally wrong.
    The Headsman's Mark; <Krast> gets +1 Damage against models with 10 wounds or more. +2 against <Titanic> units. This can be really strong...Or it can do nothing at all.
    The Auric Mask; Your <Vulker> model can go jump off a cliff, and taking the dumb Heirloom with it.


    Spoiler: Armiger Class
    Show
    Armiger Helverin: Helverins are great. Mathematically, they output more firepower than an Avenger Gatling Cannon, and dunk on Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons. So, take that for what you will. However, that's on a Damage-per-point basis, so it only works if you actually invest the same amount of points. That is, for you to replace a Knight Warden in your army list, you must do it using two Armigers. Not one. Still, with the way that the Knights' Codex is set up, Helverins don't Melee very well. So their main role in the Codex is to be outsourced to other Factions to make almost every <Imperium> Heavy Support and almost all Dreadnoughts totally useless.

    Helverins also go great with a Knight Warden/Crusader or Dominus with The Helm Dominatus (Mechanicus). However, since these are shooty Knights, they shouldn't be your Warlord's Faction, which means blowing a CP on Heirlooms of the Household.

    Armiger Warglaive: Slightly cheaper than the Helverin - already off to a good start. Warglaives come with super-rad Chain-cleaves that are either straight-up Thunder Hammers, or, they have a truckload of S6 attacks at AP-2. 'Always bring Warglaives'. Don't know what else to say. If your Knight is a Warlord, they want to complete Charges, they want to fight in Melee. They go well with almost every House Tradition.
    Sally Forth! (Imperialis) works great.

    Remember, Heavy Stubbers are Heavy weapons. Yes, they're cheaper than the Meltagun. But you're also taking -1 to hit every time you move.


    Spoiler: Questoris Class
    Show
    Knight Preceptor: The Las-Impulsor is great. Unfortunately, you're paying 100 extra points for it, which also includes the ability to give Armigers within 6" re-roll 1s to hit. So, yeah. You're basically paying an extra 25-35 Points over a normal Questoris Knight just to hand out re-roll 1s to Armigers. They're just not that good. Armigers don't need the help.

    Questoris Knights: T8, 24 Wounds, 3+ Save, 5+ Invulnerable. Yep. What else do you want? Reaper Chainswords are cheaper, but Thunderstrike Gauntlets enable for The Paragon Gauntlet, with Death Grip. So, really, you'll only ever need one model in your army with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet, and it's really obvious what that model should be. Other than that, you're basically just going to end up what ranged weapon you want.
    • Knight Paladin: The Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon looks really good...Right up until you see 'D3 Damage', and for 100 Points. No.
    • Knight Errant: The Thermal Cannon 'does the job' you think it does. Getting within 18" of anything is super easy if you're a Knight, and if you think that an Errant doesn't do well against lots of Infantry models? Well, that's what the Titanic Feet are for - and they're free - and even then, Knights are still Super-Heavies and can Fall Back and Charge whenever they want.
    • Knight Warden: The Avenger Gatling Cannon always has 12 shots, and always does 2 Damage. The trade-off to the RFBC is that an AGC doesn't wound opposing Vehicles on 3s and 4s. But that's okay, because that's why you always have 12 shots. Now, if your RFBC can reliably roll higher than 9 (yeah, right), then its bonkers. Ideally, the '1' Damage rolls should be averaged out by the '3' rolls...Against single targets. But against heavy units (e.g; Blightlords, Custodes, Shining Spears, etc.) you can't afford to be rolling 1s and 2s, even if the next roll is a 5+. 1+3 = 2 Damage. Because this isn't Age of Sigmar where Damage carries over and everything is easy-mode. So, while the Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon can hit single targets really hard if it rolls hot, the Avenger Gatling Cannon is more consistent, more often - even against single targets - for less points.
    • Knight Crusader: Now, unlike the Paladin/Warden debate, you don't have to choose one or the other. Get both! However, the reasoning behind taking the RFBC over the AGC, is that it works better against single targets, right? ...Well, that's where the Thermal Cannon comes in, again, for less points. So, between the AGC - and Titanic Feet - the Knight Crusader still works very well against massed Infantry, even if the other hand has a Thermal Cannon on it. If your opponents are all-hordes, all-the-time, then sure. Run the RFBC and AGC. However, in most peoples' experiences, almost every horde in the game has a few 'big' models that actually walk around and do Damage. So...Yeah. Don't use the Knight Paladin, and don't use the RFBC.

    Take the Hull weapons if you want. Except don't.

    Knight Gallant: The Knight Gallant gets its own section. That's just how 'not the same' it is. For starters, it's 40 Points less than even the Knight Warden. It's roughly 10% cheaper than all other Knights. 10% off! What a deal! However, not only that, but a Knight Gallant also has a extra attack (or three, if using Titanic Feet), and hits using WS2. So, in essence, the Gallant is the cheapest Knight, and the best Knight in Melee, in a Codex which loves having Knights in Melee. The Knight Gallant is the epitome of what the Knights' Codex wants to you to do...For the cheapest points.
    But let's also have a look at a particular tactic that's currently ruining the game (that's not a joke, if you do this, you're an a*hole);
    • Landstrider: Warlord Trait. +2" to Advance and Charge. Before you've rolled any dice, add +4" to your distance. So far, your Knight is moving 16" on Turn 1. This is important, because Knights can use Exalted Court to give Warlord Traits, even when they're not the Warlord.
    • Full Tilt: For 2 CPs, you're Advancing and Charging in the same turn. Now, on average, you'll roll a 3.5 to Advance, and a 7 to Charge. 12+3.5+7+4 = 25-26" Charge. That actually gives you a 1" grace on your dice rolls, even in the full 24" Deployment maps. Not to mention the 18" Deployment maps. Now, if you stopped here, you'd be fine. First-turn Charge. Lots of armies do that. You need only a tiny bit of luck, and you're blowing 3 CPs to do it. It's at least possible to fail, slightly less than half the time (on 24" maps, on 18" maps you're done). 20-Genestealer blobs can make a 40" Charge. What's the problem?
    • House Terryn; Roll an extra D6 discard the lowest when Advancing and Charging. Cool. Now your averages are slightly higher. So, now you're all but guaranteed that Turn 1 Charge. Not even finished...
    • Glory in Honour! House Terryn, Fight immediately again. Not at the end of the phase. This is brutal if you've declared a Charge on multiple units - which you should have, because they're hitting on 6s and you're T8 anyway.
    • The Paragon Gauntlet + Death Grip.
    • Overall you've probably used somewhere between 2 and 7 CPs. On/Before Turn 1. Hope your army has 14 CPs, minimum...Oh wait, that's easy!


    Canis Rex: For even more points than a Knight Preceptor, lose the ability to buff Armigers and gain a lame ability to bring <Imperium> models back during the Morale phase...Barely ever. If Canis Rex doesn't explode, you get to have a fruity little Character running around the battlefield with a S5, AP-2, D2 Pistol. He's just...Not worth it. He's a fun idea. But unfortunately he's way over-costed (because Preceptors are over-costed to begin with) and doesn't do even that much. To make matters worse, he's a <Freeblade> which means that he's taking a Leadership test every turn to not do something you probably don't want to do. The Charging the closest unit is normal. Shooting the closest unit, with a Las-Impulsor, is probably not going to be very ideal.

    Can GW please think of any animal other than Wolves? That'd be great.


    Spoiler: Dominus Class
    Show
    Knight Castellan: The Plasma Decimator is equivalent to the Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon on the smaller Knights. However, the main headbuster on the Castellan is the Volcano Lance... Pick a single target and kill it. You've got a whole bunch of other weapons, too. But they all pale in comparison to the Volcano Lance. You're basically a Shadowsword with a better BS and an Invulnerable save. If you also have a bunch of CPs - somehow - fire off those Oathbreaker Guidance System'd Shieldbreaker Missiles every turn.

    Knight Valiant: Which a much shorter range than the Castellan, the Valiant makes itself that much more vulnerable. The Conflagaration will kill pretty much anything it's pointed at, whilst the Thundercoil Harpoon will make a mess of pretty much everything. With the Shieldbreakers and the Twin Meltaguns it has all the same secondary weapons - including Oathbreakers - that the Castellan has, so it will still churn out a ton of firepower if your opponent lets it.
    However, with the shorter range, the Valiant's WS4 really does matter. Hopefully you roll a lot of shots on that Conflagration Cannon, and you'd be hope for a lot that your opponent doesn't 'No Overwatch'. The bane of Valiants' existence are Blood Angel Smash Captains.


    Spoiler: Sacristan Forgeshrine
    Show
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!





    Guide to Index: Renegade Knights
    Questor Traitorus

    Spoiler: Special Rules
    Show
    Renegade Knight Lance: You'll want to pick up at least one non-Armiger Knight. With a pair of Armigers, you'll get the 3 Command Points. Without at least one <Titanic> unit in your Detachment, you get nothing. But that's cool. 'Cause Traitor Knights don't really get all that many Stratagems. However, you do still get the <Character> Keyword in non-SHADs, though. So you can Heroically Intervene. But, without Exalted Court or Heirlooms of the Household, all's your really doing is preventing your huge Knights from blocking for your Daemon Princes.

    Warlord Trait: A Traitor Knight Warlord gains Objective Secured and counts as 10 models. Pfft.

    Relic: The **** is this!?

    Stratagems
    Rotate Ion Shields; Yep. Get your +1 Invulnerable save.
    Trail of Destruction; For 2 CPs, re-roll all to hits for the phase. Nice.


    Spoiler: Renegades
    Show
    Renegade Knight: Unfortunately, GW forgot that datasheet caps are thing. So while your Imperial counterparts can have four or even five Knights (though they absolutely shouldn't), you're pretty much limited to 2 or 3, depending on the points limit, because all your Knights are called the same thing.
    • As before, your choices are between the Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon or Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon. Same as before, the Avenger Gatling Cannon is the best option. However, what sets Renegade Knights apart from their counterparts, is that they can have two Avenger Gatling Cannons. With Trail of Destruction, you can strafe units for days. This is a fairly strong choice, made all the more palatable because Imperials can't do it. It's actually something <Chaos> gets that actually is a nice thing!
    • Yes, if you have a Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, +1 Attack and WS2. But without Landstrider and Full Tilt, what's the point?

    Magnetising or 'not gluing' Renegade Knights is strongly recommended, as they are in the 'Index phase', and subject to change.
    It's important to remember that when you're dealing with Renegade Knights, don't forget that the Khorne Lord of Skulls exists in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It has more Wounds, and sort of barely regenerates. However, the main benefit it has is that it has the <Heretic Astartes> - and <Legion> - Keywords, allowing for Warptime, and Chaos Lords handing out re-rolls to hit. As a <Daemon Vehicle>, the Lord of Skulls also has access to Daemonforge for 1CP (which also gives re-rolls to wound as well), instead of Trail of Destruction, for 2. Point is, remember that the Lord of Skulls exists, and is actually quite good.

    Renegade Knight Dominus: Unlike the smaller Renegade Knights, you don't get to pick and choose which weapons you get. You're basically running either the Knight Valiant or the Knight Castellan, with the same benefits and drawbacks of each (see the Dominus Class section, above). However, losing access to Oathbreaker Guidance System really is a kick in the junk, and you should just keep your Siegebreaker Cannons.
    ...For now. See; 'Still in Index phase of development'.

    Renegade Armiger: Here, the datasheet cap will really kick you in the junk, because 'Helverins' and 'Warglaives' are actually the same thing with Traitors. But, in reality, it's unlikely you're even going to want more than 2 units anyway.
    • Chaos Space Marine Forgefiends are not as good as 'Helverins'. However, Maulerfiends are much better than 'Warglaives'...Interestingly, so are Defilers. <Daemon Vehicles> are generally pretty good, especially with the same 5+ Invulnerable that Armigers get, except it works in the Fight phase, too - and even then it's unlikely you'll be burning Rotate Ion Shields on an Armiger even in the Shooting phase. Just so long as your opponents aren't stacking negs to hit. However, negs to hit in the Fight phase are generally pretty rare.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-19 at 07:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    A guy at the local store decided to won't be starting a guard army and made a fire sale on a bunch of his impulse purchases. Thus I manages to snatch 3 boxes of Ogryns.

    Here comes the question how to equip them? I gues clubs are a must, but the harder part is the shield brute, slab or mix?
    Looking at the book there seem to be able to stack retarded amount of armor buffs, but on the other hand 4++ is always nice to have.

    The local meta tends to have an almost equal mix of armies spamming AP -/-1 and plasma/knight lovers (eldar are not popular around here).

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31 View Post
    A guy at the local store decided to won't be starting a guard army and made a fire sale on a bunch of his impulse purchases. Thus I manages to snatch 3 boxes of Ogryns.
    You don't have Ogryns. You have Bullgryns. Every Ogryn you make, is a Bullgryn you didn't make.
    As always, S4 AP- isn't a thing - especially at BS4.
    All of your Bullgryns have Bullgryn Mauls. Maybe you throw in a Grenade Gauntlet or two for Overwatch (remembering that the Frag Bomb also counts as another one, basically).

    Generally it's pretty safe to go half/half on Bullgryn Shields and Slabshields, and you just take the save on whatever is better (or worse, depending on what the rest of the phase is going to throw at you). With 27 T5 Wounds in the squad, you have a lot of wiggle room.*
    At the very least, it only matters if your opponents shoot AP-3 weapons at you. If they're shooting AP-2 at you - which should be the meta - then it makes no difference whether you use a 2+ Save or a 4+ Invulnerable. But, when your opponent start shooting Plasma guns at you, you'll want the Invulnerable. A Smash Captain is killing one Bullgryn per wound, so that Invulnerable is at least better than a 5+.

    Basically it's up to you. Bullgryns are a fantastic unit and in the current meta, a 2+ Save or a 4+ Invulnerable is basically the same thing...Unless, your opponents are shooting AP- weapons at multi-wound models with a 2+ save. In which case they deserve to lose games. However, **** gets real when you add in a Primaris Psyker (Psychic Barrier), for that sweet 3+ Invulnerable. Nightshroud also isn't bad either.

    *Most people are willing to accept Slabshields as Brute Shields. Slabshields just look better. However, if you're going to go half/half, then WYSIWYG absolutely does matter.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-19 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Thanks for the sugestions Cheese. Since Bulgryn came out I've competely forgotten that the normal Ogryn existed, the armored variant looks soo much better. Also fully agree on the slab shield being the much better looking option.

    I do have 4x Primaris Psykers converted from the scion and command squad box with GS an tend ro bring at least one in most lists. So the potential 3++ looks really good.

    Was the Take cover strategem FAQed to only work on armor saves or is it still a flat +1?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31 View Post
    Thanks for the sugestions Cheese. Since Bulgryn came out I've competely forgotten that the normal Ogryn existed, the armored variant looks soo much better. Also fully agree on the slab shield being the much better looking option.

    I do have 4x Primaris Psykers converted from the scion and command squad box with GS an tend ro bring at least one in most lists. So the potential 3++ looks really good.

    Was the Take cover strategem FAQed to only work on armor saves or is it still a flat +1?
    Honestly? Ogryns serve no purpose anymore. Bullgryns have utterly eclipsed them as a unit and being "cheaper" doesnt help them. Its rather sad really, cuz Ripper Guns used to at least be not crap.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I'll let you read Swooping Assault again, and then let you answer the question.
    The key hint is that you just answered it.
    I'm asking to confirm that my reading is correct (or incorrect), since I'm not familiar enough with this edition yet (still haven't played a game of it) to assume that I'm reading it right.

    My understanding is this:
    I deploy my army, which let's say is 900 points of things going into reserve, ~880 points of other stuff, and the Flyrant. Flyrant is deployed on the board normally, so I have more than have my army's points on the battlefield.

    Deployment ends, and it checks to see if I complied with the 50% rule. I did, so it goes on its merry way none the wiser.

    After Deployment, but before the first turn, Alien Cunning allows me to set up my Flyrant again. I do so, but now I set him into Reserves with Swooping Assault. Swooping Assault says 'during deployment', but Alien Cunning says to set them back up 'as described in the deployment section of the mission you are playing.' My understanding is that the options available to me in Deployment (including Swooping Assault) are available to me with Alien Cunning, which would indeed let me deploy it into reserve.

    I did Google this before asking, but the results were inconclusive. Some people on reddit 18 months ago seemed to think yes (but 18 months ago, so . . .) and some people on the tyranid hive website tangentially argued about it (but spent more time debating if this circumvented the Deep Strike limitations) without coming to a real conclusion. After that the search degraded pretty hard - D&D and random video games started showing up on page two. I would just like to know if there is an official stance on this or if this is the kind of thing you discuss with your opponent. I'm also open to the possibility (probability?) that I'm misreading it because Magic has trained me to read rules in silly ways.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Baratheon View Post
    I deploy my army, which let's say is 900 points of things going into reserve, ~880 points of other stuff, and the Flyrant. Flyrant is deployed on the board normally, so I have more than have my army's points on the battlefield.
    None of that matters.

    After Deployment, but before the first turn, Alien Cunning allows me to set up my Flyrant again. I do so, but now I set him into Reserves with Swooping Assault. Swooping Assault says 'during deployment', but Alien Cunning says to set them back up 'as described in the deployment section of the mission you are playing.'
    Swooping Assault; During Deployment, you can set up a Hive Tyrant with wings...
    Alien Cunning; At the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins... (cont.) set them up again as described in the Deployment Section of the Mission.

    So, during Deployment, you set up on the board.
    At the start of the first battle round, set up again, as per the Deployment of the Mission.

    The Deployment Section of the Mission says nothing about Warlords' abilities.

    My understanding is that the options available to me in Deployment
    Then your understanding is wrong, because it is no longer Deployment. It is the first turn.

    Some people on reddit 18 months ago seemed to think yes
    Yes. If you were reading the Index rules, pre-Errata. 'Set up again', isn't the same as the Errata'd version 'set them up again as described in the Deployment section of the mission you are playing'. The fact that people were arguing about it with no clear decision, is the reason it was Errata'd in the first place. I know what you're trying to do, and it was removed from the game for a reason. You can't trick your opponent. And I know that that's what you're trying to do. Put them in Reserve. Or don't. It's that simple.

    A similar thing used to happen to Craftworlds' players combining Phantasm with Webway Strike...No. Reason being that the Deployment Section of the Mission doesn't have a provision for Webway Strike...Or Swooping Assault.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    None of that matters.

    Swooping Assault; During Deployment, you can set up a Hive Tyrant with wings...
    Alien Cunning; At the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins... (cont.) set them up again as described in the Deployment Section of the Mission.

    So, during Deployment, you set up on the board.
    At the start of the first battle round, set up again, as per the Deployment of the Mission.

    The Deployment Section of the Mission says nothing about Warlords' abilities.

    Then your understanding is wrong, because it is no longer Deployment. It is the first turn.

    Yes. If you were reading the Index rules, pre-Errata. 'Set up again', isn't the same as the Errata'd version 'set them up again as described in the Deployment section of the mission you are playing'. The fact that people were arguing about it with no clear decision, is the reason it was Errata'd in the first place. I know what you're trying to do, and it was removed from the game for a reason. You can't trick your opponent. And I know that that's what you're trying to do. Put them in Reserve. Or don't. It's that simple.

    A similar thing used to happen to Craftworlds' players combining Phantasm with Webway Strike...No.
    Okay, thanks for the clarification. I'm not trying to trick anyone - I just wanted to have a lot of reserve units, which FWIW were going to be Warriors and Trygons, and not have the Flyrant get shot down on turn one.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Baratheon View Post
    I'm not trying to trick anyone
    Saying that one thing is on the board, letting your opponent deploy, and then removing it from the board, is a trick.

    I just wanted to have a lot of reserve units
    Which GW hasn't wanted anyone to do since FAQ 1. Because null-deployments aren't fair.
    Hence the whole, 'half your units and half your points', and then additionally nerfing any ability that gives SUA on Turn 1.

    That said, getting your whole army shot off the board in 2 turns because you weren't allowed to be in Reserve, is also not fair. But that's why huge swathes of the meta no longer exist, and with less and less Reserves being allowed, T'au get better and better.
    The idea, pretty simply, is that Tyranids' strengths do not lie in massive amounts of Reserves.
    Reserves pretty much died as an army concept 9 months ago. Except for Scions, which are 10 Points each, so if you put 5 units in Reinforcements, it'll barely even register as far as your army list is concerned (What's a Knight? 8 units' worth of Power Rating? That's that sorted. Now put Officers and Heavy Weapons Teams on the board and you're good to go), and then you come down spraying AP-2 'YA BOO SUX! Sixes Wound Anything!'

    But the whole point of individual Datasheets and no more universal special rules was so that GW could say "No Reserves on Turn 1. But this unit can."
    ...But then GW ignored that and completely missed the upside to no universal special rules and having each unit individual to one another.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-19 at 01:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Honestly? Ogryns serve no purpose anymore.
    that's been true since they stopped coming with Viking horn helmets...

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That said, getting your whole army shot off the board in 2 turns because you weren't allowed to be in Reserve, is also not fair. But that's why huge swathes of the meta no longer exist, and with less and less Reserves being allowed, T'au get better and better.
    The idea, pretty simply, is that Tyranids' strengths do not lie in massive amounts of Reserves.
    Reserves pretty much died as an army concept 9 months ago. Except for Scions, which are 10 Points each, so if you put 5 units in Reinforcements, it'll barely even register as far as your army list is concerned (What's a Knight? 8 units' worth of Power Rating? That's that sorted. Now put Officers and Heavy Weapons Teams on the board and you're good to go), and then you come down spraying AP-2 'YA BOO SUX! Sixes Wound Anything!'

    But the whole point of individual Datasheets and no more universal special rules was so that GW could say "No Reserves on Turn 1. But this unit can."
    ...But then GW ignored that and completely missed the upside to no universal special rules and having each unit individual to one another.
    That's unfortunate - I always liked the options that Reserves gave you and thought they added an interesting level to the game. However, assuming the people that were in it in 7th are the people in it now, my meta is pretty soft - I've played against literal Angry Marine meme lists before - so I should be able to make a subpar Jormungandr Trygon/Warrior list work passably just by dint of not doing things for the lolz. If not, I'll just move on to something else that works better. C'est la vie and all.
    Last edited by Bobby Baratheon; 2019-01-19 at 01:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    While on the topic of debated rules, movement after disembarking from a moving valkyrie, yea/nay, where do people weigh in?
    Last edited by Brookshw; 2019-01-19 at 06:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    While on the topic of debated rules, movement after disembarking from a moving valkyrie, yea/nay, where do people weigh in?
    Where does it say you can't? What interpretation of the rules do I need to read?
    How is this rule debated?
    I don't know what the problem is.

    Grav-Chute Insertion is a weird rule. But it wasn't nerfed - even though it should've been. Fact is, GW didn't nerf it because Guard are allowed to do anything they want.


    Speaking of Fliers; Since you no longer lose from tabling, people are saying that Stormravens might come back into the meta because they're not ~320 Point failwhales anymore.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Where does it say you can't? What interpretation of the rules do I need to read?
    How is this rule debated?
    I don't know what the problem is.
    brb faq says riding in a vehicle counts as moving. Disembarking normally lets you move after. So do you get two move actions?

    Here's the debate, starts towards the bottom of page 1 and goes from there. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforu.../0/767982.page
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    brb faq says riding in a vehicle counts as moving. Disembarking normally lets you move after. So do you get two move actions?
    Normally, you need to disembark before the transport moves so its a non-issue. The BRB is about the interaction with heavy weapons and the like. Grave-chute insertion or the new Scions formation has nothing to do with that.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    I have no interest in reading back-and-forths on Dakka. I assume that the first thing that happened after say, the first three posts didn't give a definitive answer, the OP went immediately to GW's Facebook (or the ITC/FLG), right? And since the discussion was tabled to a higher authority, the matter was resolved until further notice, right?

    But, I was specifically given the FAQ, and 'move normally' as my clues what to look for.

    Transports, page 183.
    Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves.

    Grav-Chute Insertion
    Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move...

    So far, so good...

    Rulebook FAQ, page 6.
    Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count
    as also having moved?

    A: Yes.

    Transports (cont.)
    Units that disembark can then act normally.

    Can a unit move after Grav-Chuting?
    Yes; A unit that disembarks can move normally.
    No; A unit that has already moved, can't move again.

    Why even debate this? There are no other examples with which to draw from.
    It's not like Alien Cunning getting its wording Errata'd to match Phantasm and then Phantasm disallowing Webway Strikes for the same reason as Alien Cunning getting nerfed.
    Go straight an authority figure. Either Facebook or the ITC. Don't screw around on forums.
    End.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-19 at 11:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Speaking of Fliers; Since you no longer lose from tabling, people are saying that Stormravens might come back into the meta because they're not ~320 Point failwhales anymore.
    The old missions didn't stop existing. Just to screw with everyone, the mission pack for next week's tournament uses each of the three extant deployment/first turn methods over the three rounds, and only one uses Acceptable Casualties.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2019-01-20 at 09:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Had a game vs Eldar Soup yesterday. Since I could not find my Chapter Approved, we used one of the rulebook eternal war missions. (score at end of game, 1 objective each)

    Here are the lists:

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    3x T'au Sept Battalions

    Shadowsun
    Darkstrider
    XV8 Commander w/ missiles
    Coldstar w/ Fusion (had vectored thrusters, but I never used them. )
    2x Cadre Fireblades (1 warlord with Through Unity, Devestation)

    Kroot
    2x10 Strikers
    6x5 Breachers

    Crisis Suits w/ Missile, Plasma, Plasma each
    2x Ghostkeel
    2x3 Stealth Suits
    3x Farsight Marksmen

    Gun Drones
    3x Pathfinder squads, 2 ion, 1 rail rifles


    Dank Eldar:
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    Black Heart Spearhead
    Archon, (warlord, CP trait, book of vect's poetry)
    3x Dissy ravagers

    Coven Battalion (the 4++ one)
    Special Character Heamunculus
    Regular Haemunculus
    3x Wrack units
    7 man Grots
    3 man Talos

    Alitoc Battalion
    Farseer on bike
    Warlock on bike
    3x Rangers
    Crimson Hunter exarch
    Forgeworld transformer plane


    It was a good game. Took a while since we went sort of slow. I definitely need to figure out how to roll faster.

    The lists felt reasonably balanced vs. each other. I ended up giving him a thrashing by the end, but a big part of that was terrible luck on his part. Well, bad luck at least. He got laser focused on taking down my Ghostkeels and they kept on shrugging everything off. It did not help that he got distracted after shooting a couple shield drones and failed to deal with the rest of the drones (the stealth squads and shadowsun all brought drones to protect the ghostkeels) including ignoring the stealth drones.

    On my side, I completely wiffed with my crisis suits when I brought them in. I dropped them next to his crimson hunter. And then he used the hit penalty strat when another squad fired at them, so I should have just aimed elsewhere, though the only other things around for the plasma rifles were some rangers and wracks, but definitely I should have shot the missiles at a ravager. I mean, I specifically included those missiles because of the range (and because I think that anything besides missiles as a third weapon looks pants) and I was like, "no must shoot everything at the plane in front of me!"

    On the other hand, even though he vect'ed my focused fire strat on his wracks, I still blew through them and the talos in my first turn.

    Overall, everything in my army seemed to perform roughly to expectations, aside from the big wiff on my crisis suits. Also my pathfinders seemed to do less in this game, but eldar -hit hurts them bad since they need to overcharge for max damage, and after the first turn his stuff was mostly across the board so I had to move towards him.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaktan View Post
    Had a game vs Eldar Soup yesterday. I ended up giving him a thrashing by the end, but a big part of that was units from the DE codex other than Ravagers that could've been Harlequins or more Craftworld instead
    Emphasis mine, I think thats the reason anyways.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2019-01-20 at 09:23 PM.

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