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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Cheese/Drasius, will we see you here some day?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...ionship-store/

    I like how "Ample gaming space" is apparently enough for 24 people... my FLGS has almost twice that and isn't even the biggest in the area haha.
    space for 12 6x4 tables is way ample for me. I mean, I could get the space for an special event, but the rent for such a place on a daily basis seems like murder for profits (or would force a general price increase and that murders demand).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    So: Genestealer Cults. What are the competitive builds looking like for them? I'm thinking of starting a Cult army, and I don't know what "good" options I'd need to take (other than the obvious- genestealers, buffed Patriarchs, and 1st-turn-charge denial).

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Oooooh....

    I 'member that there was an Australian tournament system that went at least into 7th Ed. For the life of me I can't remember what it was called - maybe Drasius remembers?

    But a bunch of TOs and competitive players in Australia made a document that assigned 'broken points' (TPs?) to almost every good unit in the entire game. It gained a semi-infamous reputation for requiring a ****-ton amount of work and play-testing to create, and also it made list-building a total pain in the arse due to how convoluted it was. However, due to the fact that it was almost constantly updated by some of the best players in the country, it actually was relatively balanced at the higher end of the game.

    So, as long as you could get past the asinine list-building stage, I vaguely recall that it was okay? Unfortunately a lot of people couldn't get past the list-building stage...Hence its infamy.

    I think you got 20 (?) TPs (?) in most tournaments that used the system? ...****. I wish I could remember the name.
    I remember you talking about it, but can't recall the name. Comp or something.

    I also remember you talking about how exploitable it was
    Last edited by Tome; 2019-02-14 at 12:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    I remember you talking about it, but can't recall the name. Comp or something.

    I also remember you talking about how exploitable it was
    Community Comp?

    I remember reading that pack and thanking whoever would listen that we didn't use it around here.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatgrinder View Post
    So: Genestealer Cults. What are the competitive builds looking like for them? I'm thinking of starting a Cult army, and I don't know what "good" options I'd need to take (other than the obvious- genestealers, buffed Patriarchs, and 1st-turn-charge denial).
    Wait until the Errata drops. Will you be able to drop 20 hand flamers on a unit straight off the bat? Will 7" rerollable charges be a thing? Str 9 aberrants? Who knows, everthing is still subject to change!
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatgrinder View Post
    So: Genestealer Cults. What are the competitive builds looking like for them? I'm thinking of starting a Cult army, and I don't know what "good" options I'd need to take (other than the obvious- genestealers, buffed Patriarchs, and 1st-turn-charge denial).
    • Hordes, but you always set your horde up after your opponent. That and first-turn charge denial is worth taking Baneblade-chassis tanks rather than knights, right?
    • Sanctus and Jackal Alphus are both good snipers. If you can get a +1 to hit onto the Sanctus, he can arrive from reserve and double-tap for free - which is pretty good for sixty points.
    • Rusted Claw bikers can appear three inches away from the enemy, throw five demolition charges at +1 to hit and wound, and then make a move and advance away.
    • Stack leadership bonuses on yourself and penalties on your enemy, and turn a Patriarch into a cannon of literally infinite mortal wounds. Or hey, burn your familiar to make an enemy shadowsword shoot it's ally, and then glare it to death.
    • Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor can counteract enemy stratagems, and while I assume that ability will soon be nerfed to only be as good as the Kabalite version, who cares: you can make a battalion way more cheaply and stack the command points higher.


    I'm away from my book so can't name any more off the top of my head, but yeah: I can't speak for if GSC will become the list to beat, but i'm willing to bet they can fairly effortlessly play with the big boys.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2019-02-14 at 01:52 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Oooooh....

    I 'member that there was an Australian tournament system that went at least into 7th Ed. For the life of me I can't remember what it was called - maybe Drasius remembers?

    But a bunch of TOs and competitive players in Australia made a document that assigned 'broken points' (TPs?) to almost every good unit in the entire game. It gained a semi-infamous reputation for requiring a ****-ton amount of work and play-testing to create, and also it made list-building a total pain in the arse due to how convoluted it was. However, due to the fact that it was almost constantly updated by some of the best players in the country, it actually was relatively balanced at the higher end of the game.

    So, as long as you could get past the asinine list-building stage, I vaguely recall that it was okay? Unfortunately a lot of people couldn't get past the list-building stage...Hence its infamy.

    I think you got 20 (?) TPs (?) in most tournaments that used the system? ...****. I wish I could remember the name.
    As Requizen said, you're thinking of community comp, but it was a terrible system for terrible people and wasn't balanced at all, it just changed what was op.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Cheese/Drasius, will we see you here some day?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...ionship-store/

    I like how "Ample gaming space" is apparently enough for 24 people... my FLGS has almost twice that and isn't even the biggest in the area haha.
    It's in the capital of the state I live in, but it's also about 1600kms away (1000 miles for you Luddites), so probably only if I get sucked into the tournament scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Community Comp?

    I remember reading that pack and thanking whoever would listen that we didn't use it around here.
    Correct.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Cheese/Drasius, will we see you here some day?
    I've been there several times already. It's just over 100kms away, which means it's only about 90 minutes drive. I've been to a number of tournaments there.

    I like how "Ample gaming space" is apparently enough for 24 people... my FLGS has almost twice that and isn't even the biggest in the area haha.
    My local tournament venue houses 50 players due to health and safety and the fire code...The Brisbane players come to us, not us to them.
    What it isn't, however, is an official GW store where GW themselves can veto what can and can't be played, and have complete control over people (they come to us). What you can't do, is say "Mate, you're a ****head. This is the rule." You don't have to call a TO to settle disputes. You settle disputes yourself. However, in a GW store, where stock is sold (especially limited stock)...You don't really want to get banned from the store for six months due to bad language around 10 year-olds.
    ...Telling a Blackshirt that you're in Australia and the 10 year-old knows more bad words than I do anyway (especially in Queensland, at least)...Doesn't seem to work.

    My...Opinion...For why LVO banned Sisters of Silence conversions for Sororitas, is because GW said so.

    CanCon already happened. 24 people is a joke.
    That's why they have to run 'heats' instead of a single tournament.

    EDIT:
    Speaking of CanCon.
    CanCon was full of House Krast Crusaders. However, a few weeks later, LVO was full of House Raven Castellans (10% [63] of all lists at the tournament, had a Castellan). So they didn't disappear from the meta. What is Australia even doing?

    I heard a theory; People in Australia can't afford Castellans. Australia tax got 'em bad.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-14 at 08:49 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    I heard a theory; People in Australia can't afford Castellans. Australia tax got 'em bad.
    A castellan is 170 usd (about 238 aud) vs actual price of 280 aud. Given that the average wage here is higher, that theory doesn't appear to hold much water.

    Is lvo itc rules? Was cancon itc? Were players building lists appropriate for the mission pack and that's the difference?

    Edit: IK were already popular here with many players already having a knight or 5,while I understand that it wasn't quite as common in 'murica, so there could be an aspect of pragmatism in it.
    Last edited by Drasius; 2019-02-14 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    A castellan is 170 usd (about 238 aud) vs actual price of 280 aud. Given that the average wage here is higher, that theory doesn't appear to hold much water.

    Is lvo itc rules? Was cancon itc? Were players building lists appropriate for the mission pack and that's the difference?

    Edit: IK were already popular here with many players already having a knight or 5,while I understand that it wasn't quite as common in 'murica, so there could be an aspect of pragmatism in it.
    maybe their castellans melted? not joking, we are mid summer and anything not glued is falling apart (instead of magnets, many people here use bluetac to hold knights together)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    A castellan is 170 usd (about 238 aud) vs actual price of 280 aud. Given that the average wage here is higher...
    Don't say dumb stuff. The argument that starts there has been debunked over and over and over again. The more you say it, the more non-Australians will believe it. It's especially bad when an actual Australian says it.

    Australian pricing is because of the GFC. Our economy is volatile, companies can set their pricing at whatever our strongest currency was and gouge us. Because Australia didn't get hit by the GFC, we have a very strong 'high point', so companies set their prices there. However, with the GFC over, and our economy dropping like a rock, causing extreme casualisation of the workforce...

    {Self-Scrubbed}

    ...I think what you meant was, our minimum wage is higher (by $6 USD). However, that doesn't mean anything when your workforce is losing hours, and hiring people under 21 allows for up a 40% reduction of that wage.

    {Self-Scrubbed}

    Is lvo itc rules? Was cancon itc?
    Yes and Yes.

    Edit: IK were already popular here with many players already having a knight or 5
    Having 5 Questoris Knights doesn't mean anything anymore. Knights can be wounded by Lasguns now.
    Pure Knight armies are real terrible.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-15 at 12:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    My...Opinion...For why LVO banned Sisters of Silence conversions for Sororitas, is because GW said so.
    .
    Do you have any information on how the ban was applied in practice? From what I’ve seen it was a ban on proxies, so taking SoS that are close enough to the base model to be indistinguishable is a no, whereas a conversion based on a SoS, with various other adjustments, would be fine.

    (Mostly I’m curious as to how my SoB would fare: if being strict they would probably count as proxies, but there is no chance of confusing them with the base minatures the conversions are made from, as you can’t use AoS Chaos Warriors in 40k!)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My...Opinion...For why LVO banned Sisters of Silence conversions for Sororitas, is because GW said so.
    That sucks. :(

    It would be like banning the awesome Stormcast Primaris conversions my friends have made.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Don't say dumb stuff. The argument that starts there has been debunked over and over and over again. The more you say it, the more non-Australians will believe it. It's especially bad when an actual Australian says it.

    Australian pricing is because of the GFC. Our economy is volatile, companies can set their pricing at whatever our strongest currency was and gouge us. Because Australia didn't get hit by the GFC, we have a very strong 'high point', so companies set their prices there. However, with the GFC over, and our economy dropping like a rock, causing extreme casualisation of the workforce...

    {Self-Scrubbed}

    ...I think what you meant was, our minimum wage is higher (by $6 USD). However, that doesn't mean anything when your workforce is losing hours, and hiring people under 21 allows for up a 40% reduction of that wage.

    {Self-Scrubbed}
    Measure average disposable income vs the cost of the castellan. Total price, or even the exchange rate equivalent price means little in the grand scheme of things (though that does tend to be how it gets measured). IIRC, Aussies have about 8% more disposable income than yanks, adjusting for income vs local costs.

    I am intruiged by what you deleted though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yes and Yes.
    Well, guess I won't be going to cancon for 40k then. When did this cancer invade Oz?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Having 5 Questoris Knights doesn't mean anything anymore. Knights can be wounded by Lasguns now.
    Pure Knight armies are real terrible.
    No, but if you already have 5 questoris knights and 0 castellans, it's a rather pragmatic choice to simply grab your best painted crusader and save 1/4 of an army in $'s, while if you don't have any knights, a castellans and a box of armigers is a perfect plug-in for any imperium army.

    It's not that they don't want to spend the money, it's that they don't need more ik, and what they already have does most of the job for cheaper.

    Either that or the meta evolved to make characters less of a focal point, making a castellan less important. Maybe saving cp by only using 1cp for rotate ion shields and blowing bulk cp on their non-knight, non-guard units became a consideration?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    • Rusted Claw bikers can appear three inches away from the enemy, throw five demolition charges at +1 to hit and wound, and then make a move and advance away.*
    * For 4 CP. Still can't get within 3" so bubble wrap can keep them off real targets if the opponent knows the gimic.

    Still cute, and 75 points of questionable bikers can pop a russ if the opponent forgets his protective layer of infantry. Heck, pay 3 more to get a grenade launcher on one of them for turns later if they survive.

    Been reading over the codex... really weird stuff.

    Spoiler: Overview
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    Spoiler: HQs
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    Patriarch: Big nasty psyker, that also buffs genestealers... except a Primus provides the same buff plus another one, and does it for everyone. Can be built around to nuke super heavies with the Mental Onslaught bomb. Otherwise I guess it has a bunch of attacks?

    Magus: Psyker for less then the Patriarch. Also Can get some of your other units denying powers. Since GSC powers are pretty great, he seems pretty great.

    Primus: Buff half of a patriarch, without the personal stats but handing out rerolls to wound. Seems pretty important, and is cheaper, so you can get a couple.

    Acolyte Iconward: Cheapest HQ, hands out a 5+ FNP and re-roll moral. Also rr1s the aberrant FNP. Seems pretty great in general.

    Abominant: Can get to strength 8, so 2x knight toughness with weapon. Buffs other Aberrants, so possibly an option to send it+smaller aberrant squad to crunch a knight? Needs more mathhammer.

    Jackal Alphus: 1 shot of sniper is irrelevant. Now handing out +1 to hit in shooting is pretty great... except most of the shooty units in the codex are brood brothers. I assume stacking bonuses to hit count, so send it along with the Jackal demo-pack delivery service? Not much else for it to buff.


    Spoiler: Troops
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    Acolyte Hybrids: Cheapish assault infantry. Issue is if you want to charge out of reserves you are competing for expensive stratagems. If you aren't, then you are guardsmen footslogging across the board. I guess they are cheap enough you can just tell them to make their 9" charge, and creeds can help?

    Neophyte Hybrids: 5ppm infantry squads, but they have better deployment options. I guess the weapon options are... different? Most of the mining weapons seem bad. I guess webbers are cool/cheap?

    BB Infantry Squads: I feel like cheese asked this question effectively. Are guardsmen with no synergy good? 4ppm, but not affected by any leadership/sub-faction/buff auras. Just 10 dudes, standard IG options. They are only 40 points, and they do fill out troop slots/provide flexibility with ambush deployments. Unlike IG, GSC seems CP hungry, so the 10point/squad discount might be enough for them to be taken.



    Spoiler: Elites
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    Hybrid Metamorphs: Not Purstrains, so why bother?

    Aberrants: Honestly seems mainly a way to answer knights. If the knight has sanctuary, a max squad of power hammers needs a primus and a bit of help to bring it down. Otherwise they manage pretty well. Still, that is over 300 points to just killing a knight, that doesn't work through bubble wrap. Common theme in this army.

    Purestrain Genestealers: Classic standard. Take 20 and ram them into whatever. Well... not knights. Everything else is blender meat. This is the codexes main gimick, don't see a problem with it now.

    Clamavus: 55 points for a weird pile of things. +1 Leadership for the Mental Onslaught bomb. +1 charge range for making those 9" charges out of ambush, combo with 4 armed emperor to make them 7" charges(super doable). Also pushes back other reserve trickery, which is nice to prevent the counterstrike I guess? Finally, it shoots mortal wounds at all enemies within 12". not likely to trigger often, but 1 MW every other turn is outperforming bolt pistols. Seems pretty much an auto include, probably 2 or 3.

    Locus: 40 points for another source of -1 leadership. Nothing really exciting beyond that. Kinda flimsy, but character.

    Sanctus: I don't think GW understands the problem with sniper weapons. They need volume of fire to matter. So it is swinging a bio-dagger, which is great. 2+ poison is fun. Except, to do its job it wants to use A Perfect Ambush... and it can for free. Except you could ambush in 20 purestrain on that turn, or 10 Aberrants to break a knight. GSC get 1 shot at a sub-9" charge from deepstrike per turn. The Sanctus doesn't seem worthy of that very special honor.

    Kellermorph: So... a really weird sniper. 12" range means it can normal ambush on a non-bubble wrapped character, so thats cool. It can murder about 2 company commanders when it pops up, if the dice are right. Anything much bigger will only take a few wounds. If those CCs are bubble wrapped though, it is way less effective on the guardsmen. Also not great against space marines because T4, and terminators because 2+ save. Also, minus to hit reduces its volume of fire, so eldar can kinda ignore it. Man though, IG characters it will eat. 60 points seems a lot for something with that specific of a target.

    Nexos: hey, more ambush token manipulation. If you are already taking 40 point units to squat on a back field objective and do nothing, 50 points for a charicter to sit on said objective and maybe regenerate some CP seems fine. Given you will be burning through them pretty quick, the 1 per turn might help? I suspect brigades are a thing GSC want, so you need elites, and this is a pretty cheap one. The ambush token move seems... cute? Probably fine if seen as an added bonus.

    Biophagus: Random tables, YAY! Given you can command re-roll the death of an aberrant, you basically spend 35 points to give the unit a random bonus... also fill out another elite slot in your brigade. I guess +1S is kinda neat, and +1 attack isn't bad. +1 T seems really good on a unit that will be eating heavy weapons fire. Dunno, probably worth it as an elite choice. The buffs are kinda secondary.



    Spoiler: Fast Attacks
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    Achilles Ridgerunners: The chassis is 50 points, and it has 1 real gun. I really like the idea of the Heavy mortar, but given I need to spend 59 points on other stuff for each one I take... well no I don't like it that much.

    Atalan Jackals: I swear GW just wants you to cross reference more then read the rules. Bikes, so 2 wound T4 guardsmen that can get some... interesting gear. Also gets a random -1 to hit against shooting, so seems pretty good. Honestly, the Incinerator stands out as a neat. 12" heavy flamer for the same cost as standard, on a 14" body. Not sure if the -1 to hit and extra wound, and toughness really makes them durable though. As I say all that it seems a bit silly, but still they only have a 5+... unless you give them one of the defensive cults.

    The unit also has a gimick, which seems cute. You need a 5 man unit of bikers, each with a demo-charge. Nothing else really matters, and more models doesn't really add anything. They get set up underground, waiting till turn 2. when they pop up, use Lying In Wait for 2cp. This lets them set up 3" from enemy units, but they can't charge. You need to get within 3" of the target, so bubble wrap can block this. Now use Extra Explosives for 1CP. This lets up to 5 models through their demo charges, rather then 1 per round. Finally, Drive-By Demolitions for 1 more CP. All those demo charges get +1 to hit/wound, and after you throw them the unit gets to imediately move as normal for the movement phase. These bikes have a 14" move, so they can leg it a good distance. This shouldn't kill a knight, but it should pop a russ equivalent, and can nearly pop a octo-blade equivalent. Minimum unit is 75 points, 4cp to do it. The bikes need to get within 6" of the target, so bubble wrap can keep them off easily. I guess you need to focus on removing that before you bring them in, or hold till turn 3 and hope a path is cleared.

    I guess you can also just make up a couple 75 point distraction unit, with demo charges and standard stuff. Roll around threatening any heavy targets while hiding behind cover. It is only 2cp for a unit already on the board.

    Cult Armored Sentinels: Can't be cadian, so plasma cannons stop being great. This and the scout version are the cheap option for FA slots in your brigade... though you can make Atalan Jackals pretty cheap, and also get -1 to hit. Heck, their heavy flamer has a 12" range. OTOH the sent has a 3+ save and is a pain to kill efficiently.

    Cult Scout Sentinels: weird interaction with cult ambush. If you want to scout move, you don't ambush. Scout move is the ENTIRE point of the scout sentinel, ambush seems a bit redundant.


    Spoiler: Heavy Support
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    BB HWTs: So, if your HWT isn't rerolling to hit or wound, is it still valuble? OTOH, 1 unit for 2CP/turn can Lurk in the Shadows and be pseudo characters. 3 Lascannons that don't immediately implode seems cool, but they still get no modifications to shooting. Honestly not sure if that is worth it. In any event, the 39 point mortar squads are cheap and fill brigade heavy support choices.

    Cult Leman Russ: Loses vehicle squadron(ouch) and sub-faction(double ouch). Honestly, cult ambush might make up for losing re-rolls. You get to put your tanks down wherever they have targets, rather then getting stuck if your opponent outmaneuvers you. OTOH, if you deploy well, that shouldn't happen anyway. Still, you're russes aren't getting alpha-ed off the board before they shoot. Honestly seems like an interesting unit now.

    Goliath Rockgrinder: I think I just ignored this in the index. What is this thing? Has some weird creed interactions*. Clearance incinerator seems like the choice for winners on main gun. Though if you pimp it out with the mining laser, democharges, something to throw said charges, and 3+cp to get close enough out of reserves... it should kill a russ on the charge. If that russ is bubble wrapped though, I go back to seeing it as kinda jank.

    *Twisted Helix trucks are also jucing for more strength, Bladed Cog have cyborg truck parts.




    Brood brothers units seem kinda bad, besides the sentinels. Infantry squads are cheap, but don't get any synergy buffs. I guess

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    re: crusaders vs castellans

    Crusaders are less CP hungry which is why armies planning to use cps for anything other than making the super knight have moved to the crusader.

    Also Pretty:
    Last edited by 9mm; 2019-02-15 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Anyone used much AdMech in Kill Team? I really like the UR-025 model from Blackstone and I feel like it would be a fun Kill Team to build and utilize, got a good mix of shooting and melee (my preference in all games).

    What's a good way to start? I was thinking of getting the new Theta 7 Acquisitus box (only a bit more than getting the Ruststalkers/Infiltrators to get the fancy Character, Tokens, and extra Tactics) plus a box of Vanguard/Rangers to mix and match.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Just noticed, pg 75 of the GSC Codex, "the rising tide" box makes reference to a genestealer cult start collecting boxed set, with the picture apparently offering 1x acolytes, 1x neophytes, 1x iconward & 1x rockgrinder. Not a terrible start collecting, I'd buy it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Anyone used much AdMech in Kill Team? I really like the UR-025 model from Blackstone and I feel like it would be a fun Kill Team to build and utilize, got a good mix of shooting and melee (my preference in all games).

    What's a good way to start? I was thinking of getting the new Theta 7 Acquisitus box (only a bit more than getting the Ruststalkers/Infiltrators to get the fancy Character, Tokens, and extra Tactics) plus a box of Vanguard/Rangers to mix and match.
    Vanguard/Rangers are borderline useless in Kill Team a lot of the time. Unless you get a really favorable map. Stick to Ruststalkers/Infiltrators.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Vanguard/Rangers are borderline useless in Kill Team a lot of the time. Unless you get a really favorable map. Stick to Ruststalkers/Infiltrators.
    Useless in the same way that scions with plasma guns are useless? Being able to stick plasma (or any other special weapon, but probably plasma) onto a relatively cheap body with BS +3 is amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YossarianLives View Post
    Useless in the same way that scions with plasma guns are useless? Being able to stick plasma (or any other special weapon, but probably plasma) onto a relatively cheap body with BS +3 is amazing.
    Maybe grab one or two, but Ruststalkers and Infiltrators are amazing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Had a draw against T'au today using my non-Guilliman Space Marines. It was 11-0 at the bottom of Turn 3. However, once I lost my ability to do things (e.g; Masterful Marksmanship, Mortal Wounds, etc.) the game went downhill, really fast, ending at 15-15, with my opponent tabling me at the bottom of Turn 5, and getting two free turns as the game continued to Turn 7 without me.

    In this game, I really noticed how much the Bolter rules have ruined my enjoyment my army, at least as far as playstyle goes.

    Normally, at some point, being a gunline, in an edition where Melee is quite a strong and neccessary way to contest and hold Objectives (ITC notwithstanding ), I can usually count on my opponents coming to me, allowing Space Marines to do what they do best - Melee, without having to move. However, against T'au? In the classic gunline vs. gunline match, I started to remember why I hated the majority of 5th Ed.

    But couldn't you just move?
    But I'm playing Ultramarines with re-rolls to hit. Without moving, I double my firepower for free.
    I'm playing Raven Guard, where staying outside 12" gives my opponent -1 to hit...And I double my firepower for free.

    Also...
    It's only two Riptides, that's fine. I can deal with that.
    Oh wait. 30 Shield Drones.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Anyone used much AdMech in Kill Team? I really like the UR-025 model from Blackstone and I feel like it would be a fun Kill Team to build and utilize, got a good mix of shooting and melee (my preference in all games).

    What's a good way to start? I was thinking of getting the new Theta 7 Acquisitus box (only a bit more than getting the Ruststalkers/Infiltrators to get the fancy Character, Tokens, and extra Tactics) plus a box of Vanguard/Rangers to mix and match.
    I was playing Kill Team only last night and we had pretty much this same discussion. There general consensus is that Ad.Mech are a Glass Cannon team with a preference for shooting, as opposed to GSC who are Glass Cannons for CQC.

    Ad.Mech's close combat units are... okay. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a Trap, but 'okay' isn't really good enough to build a battle plan around, especially not when their long ranged stuff is significantly better than average. If you can take a couple of 'brick' units to tie up your opponent's CQC experts rather than give them free reign to rampage through your warband that's decent, but ideally you should be falling back and then shooting them in the face.
    And then cry when you're playing Arena, unable to LoS or Overwatch through tight corridors and have to try and take an objective on the other side of the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Had a draw against T'au today using my non-Guilliman Space Marines. It was 11-0 at the bottom of Turn 3. However, once I lost my ability to do things (e.g; Masterful Marksmanship, Mortal Wounds, etc.) the game went downhill, really fast, ending at 15-15, with my opponent tabling me at the bottom of Turn 5, and getting two free turns as the game continued to Turn 7 without me.
    Honestly it just sounds like you tried to out-shoot Tau and the game went as "trying to out-shoot Tau" is supposed to go.

    You say that Ultramarines get bonuses for standing still and Raven Guard want to dance around in Rapid Fire range, and it screwed you over. All I can think of is, if you were playing Blood Angels or Black Templars then your game plan wouldn't have been "let my opponent do exactly what he wants to do for 5 turns in a row" and it would have gone very differently.

    It's almost as if front-loading on only one type of fighting - Shooting or Melee - leaves you vulnerable when you need to do the other one. Who knew?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Honestly it just sounds like you tried to out-shoot Tau and the game went as "trying to out-shoot Tau" is supposed to go.
    Almost every good army can out-shoot T'au. Do you think this is 6th Ed.?
    T'au are real bad.
    ...Then again, so are Space Marines.

    You say that Ultramarines get bonuses for standing still and Raven Guard want to dance around in Rapid Fire range, and it screwed you over.
    Space Marines get bonuses for standing still. Space Marine units will dunk on T'au units.
    Where Space Marines fail, is at Fire Warriors vs. Scouts. That is, how do I hold Objectives using 11 Point models?

    All I can think of is, if you were playing a different army [...] it would have gone very differently.
    Sound advice. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    The issue is that when you're playing Space Marines, you're playing a gunline - even when you're playing Black Templars. Except S4, AP- is really bad. So the Space Marine gunline only really works when you run Guilliman. Except when you don't run Guilliman, you fall behind really fast.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Almost every good army can out-shoot T'au. Do you think this is 6th Ed.?
    By "supposed to" I should have clarified that I mean "thematically". You met a Tau list that worked like Tau are supposed to in the fluff, and implied by their lack of CC mechanical options. I realise how dumb that sounds in the crunchy thread, but... Well, some armies are always good and then there are the ones where the game has to "go right" for them to show off. Sounds like this is what happened.

    Sound advice. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    You're being sarcastic, but am I really all that wrong? You built an army that is vulnerable to getting shot, and then got shot - what else were you expecting to happen?

    I mean, you said it yourself - you took 11pt models without backup from a powerhouse like Guilliman, and they were crap. I know that Scouts are generally pretty good in the meta, but Tau are pretty much outside of the meta entirely so whatever they do is likely to be something weird. Just one of those things - sometimes you meet the end of the bell curve and life is bad.

    I'm not trying to be deliberately confrontational about this, or y'know... "well, duh!" or anything like that. It just sounded like "Bad Army met another Bad Army that happened to be slightly better", and I wasn't sure if we were meant to be amazed by the revelation or just frustrated by the inconvenience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I know that Scouts are generally pretty good in the meta
    No they aren't?

    but Tau are pretty much outside of the meta entirely
    What is this, pre-CA'18 times?
    T'au are like...High Tier 3/Lower Tier 2 now. Especially if you're willing to spam Shield Drones - which you should be.

    I wasn't sure if we were meant to be amazed by the revelation or just frustrated by the inconvenience.
    Moreso...This is confirmation of things that we already knew. No-one should be surprised.
    What you should feel is either; Called it! Or I knew it.
    (No see, you can't just say things. You have to play-test, you have to try it out. 'Wait and see')

    Bolter Buffs didn't change anything.
    Bolter Buffs caused Space Marines to be more boring to play (IMO).
    The Bolter Buffs encourage you play into a play-style that is better done by T'au, of all Factions, and T'au aren't even that good of shooty army.
    Space Marines can't compete without Guilliman (also, Bolter Buffs don't change anything).
    11 Points per model (minimum) for a Troops unit that is only S4, AP- is too expensive.

    ...Why are you even still playing non-Guilliman Space Marines? Did you know that Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Deathwatch exist?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...Why are you even still playing non-Guilliman Space Marines? Did you know that Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Deathwatch exist?
    Got a list? 'non-Guilliman Codex Marines' can mean anything.

    For the record, I tried a sisters brigade the other day, vs Raven Guard. Bolters are trash, and a large volume of bolters with more AP and damage is still trash. Won, but all the heavy lifting was done by non-sister units, and our lady and saviour Celestine, she who keeps getting nerfed without ever deserving it. Acts of Faith were kind of redundant, and the strats arent as gamechanging as others, but I made do.

    Granted, my opponents list was hellblasters / devastators against a horde, so it wasnt ideal, but if SM cant even keep up with sisters, then there is a problem.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    ...Why are you even still playing non-Guilliman Space Marines? Did you know that Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Deathwatch exist?
    I understand this sentence, but part of me still wants to say: 'those are all Space Marines.' Other than Deathwatch, they are basically the same army with just a different faction trait.

    On a different note, how's the Mathhammer for Devastator Centurions? They dropped a full 40 points a model, and they benefit from the new bolter rules, so I'm curious to see where they are at now.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    'those are all Space Marines.' Other than Deathwatch, they are basically the same army with just a different faction trait.
    Would it that it was so, but you dont get Raven Guard Darkshrouds or White Scar Talonmasters or Ultramarine Librarian Dreads, so its not quite the same army. There is more to it than just the chapter traits, units and strats also make quite a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Would it that it was so, but you dont get Raven Guard Darkshrouds or White Scar Talonmasters or Ultramarine Librarian Dreads, so its not quite the same army. There is more to it than just the chapter traits, units and strats also make quite a difference.
    I know. But pretty much everything in the Space Marine codex can be taken as Blood Angels or Dark Angels. Also, even if the other Space Marine factions had access to those units, Blood Angels and Dark Angels still have much better faction traits.
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