Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Cheesegear]

7 points would more than see them out of the meta, it would see them out of the game entirely. 5 would be a good start, 6 is probably going too far. 7 is bringing very lop-sided comparisons to Fire Warriors where the only thing guard have on their side is being Imperium aligned.

That's just it. Either you make everyone the same, or you accept the fact that they're not the same.
A Guardsman is 4 Points. Fine. Could it be five? Maybe. Six? Probably not. Seven? I'm burning my Guardsmen now.
But, while a Guardsman is less than 7 Points...No matter what you do, it's less than 7 Points, and once the army-bulding 'phase' is over, the rules default to 1 model = 1 model.
Slowly but surely, Orks are making their way up the meta because Gretchin are 3 Points. 90+ Gretchin is the new normal. Do they need to be 5 Points, too? **** no.

The people crying that Guardsmen need to cost more points, are missing the problem. Not saying that Guardsmen couldn't be 5 Points...But that wont actually fix the issue. The problem, is people playing the game in order to win. And the way you win, is by having more models than your opponent. Not more wounds (sorry Primaris Marines), more models. This was even a problem back when the Grey Knights Codex was actually good. Why would anyone ever take Terminators, when you could get two Strike Knights for the same cost? Same amount of wounds, right? But more models, which is what actually counts. GW needs to change the fact that more models = more winning. Otherwise, people are just going to keep doing it. Guardsmen are just the obvious problem because they can ally with Knights.
But at CanCon this year we saw 150+ model armies be a regular thing. Tyranids - not Guard - went undefeated. Why? ~200 Fearless models. That's why. 200 models doesn't care about a Knight. Not even one with a Gatling Cannon.

Orks aren't happening overnight. You don't just show up one day with a 200-model army. But it is happening. Every pay cycle my friend is showing up with 10-20 more Gretchin he had than last time I saw him. Remember the 100 Poxwalker blob? I do. No-one has 100 Poxwalkers ready to go the day after the buff. Two months later? Three months?
You think GSC players aren't stockpiling Acolytes for the September tournament season?

If you 'set the minimum' for Troops to be five points...Well guess what? 5 Points is the new maximum, too. Troops that cost 8 Points or more are still going to be **** because you haven't actually fixed the problem. Maybe we should raise the minimum cost of Troops to 6 Points? 7? **** it. The new cost of Troops is 21 Points and now 1 model really does equal 1 model...Unless you're Custodes.
No wait. Why can't the minimum cost of Troops be 50 Points? Now Custodes can play, too!

...This is why you never go to BoLS. ...Also the ads.

we might as well put power level to good use. Make it so the power level of the unit in range of the objective is the deciding factor. Double or more than the opponent lets them control the objective regardless of numbers.

I think I like it.

[Requizen]

I'm up for making hordes more killable.

Make overkill damage roll over onto the next model. (Perhaps with the restriction that it only works on units with more than 10 models)

I have no idea why this is the case in AoS and not 40k.

[Turalisj]

That would still put a huge focus on playing hordes, you just have more bodies to spend.

[Cheesegear]

Make overkill damage roll over onto the next model.

Models that cost more points, need more shots.
High Damage weapons need to matter vs. models with only 1 wound.
Morale test motherf*er, DO YOU TAKE IT!?

[LeSwordfish]

Models that cost more points, need more shots.
High Damage weapons need to matter vs. models with only 1 wound.
Morale test motherf*er, DO YOU TAKE IT!?

Morale tests should, (and they'd need to work differently for this) key off Damage taken, not models killed. Nuking Guardsman Steve with a melta should be just as bad for morale as killing three or four of his mates less destructively.

[Requizen]

Models that cost more points, need more shots.
High Damage weapons need to matter vs. models with only 1 wound.
Morale test motherf*er, DO YOU TAKE IT!?

Yeah, there's lots of things that could change, just suggesting something to do with #2 there.

For #3, that's just something GW loves to do, give units a supposed weakness and then make that weakness basically nothing. "Hordes are weak to morale! Except the ones we've made immune to it." "Big things are weak to heavy weaponry! Except the ones we gave really reliable Invulns/Shrug Saves to." I doubt that'll ever change.

[Cheesegear]

Morale tests should, (and they'd need to work differently for this) key off Damage taken, not models killed. Nuking Guardsman Steve with a melta should be just as bad for morale as killing three or four of his mates less destructively.

I once had a DM who made a houserule...
If you kill a hostile in one hit, the amount of extra damage you deal counts as a die roll for an Intimidate check.

So, if a hostile has 10 HPs, and you deal 20 damage; You count as having rolled a 10 (plus your bonuses) on an Intimidate check against every other hostile of the same group within x ft.

So when you deal like 35 damage to a Goblin and splatter its guts all over the walls, the rest of the Goblins are like Holy f***. Let's get out of here, right now.

[LeSwordfish]

I once had a DM who made a houserule...
If you kill a hostile in one hit, the amount of extra damage you deal counts as a die roll for an Intimidate check.

So, if a hostile has 10 HPs, and you deal 20 damage; You count as having rolled a 10 (plus your bonuses) on an Intimidate check against every other hostile of the same group within x ft.

So when you deal like 35 damage to a Goblin and splatter its guts all over the walls, the rest of the Goblins are like Holy f***. Let's get out of here, right now.

The best way I can think of to make this "patch" work in the current rules (which is not the best thing to do IMO) would be to allow you to add the maximum "Overspill" dealt to the number of models killed, perhaps, which would rarely be more than an extra 2-3 and require you fire your D6 damage gun at mooks rather than at enemy tanks. The only problem is, it affects more expensive 1-wound models more, because they have only a little more defense against lascannons etc.

[Forum Explorer]

Unfortunately, then it all just boils down to every game being about tabling, which is boring.

Not necessarily. Hordes could still hold objectives really well, just by dint of body blocking the elite army away from the objective. Which would require them getting to it first though.

[9mm]

Morale test motherf*er, DO YOU TAKE IT!?

No relevant faction ever has taken Morale tests.

[Forum Explorer]

No relevant faction ever has taken Morale tests.

Yes, but some factions should.

[Cheesegear]

No relevant faction ever has taken Morale tests.

It can argued quite reasonably, that Factions are relevant because they don't take Morale.

Why did Iyanden become the new hotness? Why did Alaitoc fall out of style?
(Alaitoc didn't neccessarily fall out of style. But it become really apparent that Iyanden was very viable in the ITC meta, as 20-blobs of Guardians don't give up KPs.)

[LansXero]

It can argued quite reasonably, that Factions are relevant because they don't take Morale.

Why did Iyanden become the new hotness? Why did Alaitoc fall out of style?
(Alaitoc didn't neccessarily fall out of style. But it become really apparent that Iyanden was very viable in the ITC meta, as 20-blobs of Guardians don't give up KPs.)

But Alaitoc's trait is straight inmunity, no 1 model lost. Granted, smaller bubble, but still xD.

[Cheesegear]

But Alaitoc's trait is straight inmunity, no 1 model lost. Granted, smaller bubble, but still xD.

But if you do that, neither Eldrad or Yvraine is your Warlord. With a Ynnari Deatchment, and an Iyanden Detachment, you get both.

[Forum Explorer]

But Alaitoc's trait is straight inmunity, no 1 model lost. Granted, smaller bubble, but still xD.

Or take an Avatar. Or use Will of Asyuran. Eldar might just have the most ways to ignore morale. I think they have 4.

[LansXero]

But if you do that, neither Eldrad or Yvraine is your Warlord. With a Ynnari Deatchment, and an Iyanden Detachment, you get both.

Does Yvraine have to be my warlord for anything? Whats Eldrad fixed trait?

[Forum Explorer]

Does Yvraine have to be my warlord for anything? Whats Eldrad fixed trait?

Eldrad's is kinda bad, get 1 CP on a 6 at the start of each turn. Yvraine can only have the 3 basic traits in the rulebook. I don't know why you'd want either as your warlord.

[The Patterner]

Models that cost more points, need more shots.
High Damage weapons need to matter vs. models with only 1 wound.
Morale test motherf*er, DO YOU TAKE IT!?

I like these.

Altough I still think that blast weapons like frag grenades, battle cannons etc should autohit just like flamers.

I'll however admit that armies like AM would benefit from that as well, but it would still feel more natural than what we have now.

[Cheesegear]

Does Yvraine have to be my warlord for anything? Whats Eldrad fixed trait?

Eldrad is T4 with a 3++.
Yvraine regens wounds.

As Eldrad and Yvraine have no use for making attacks, they also don't ever need LoS to anything (not even Doom has to target a visible unit...It just does), conversely, nothing will ever have LoS to them, either.

They're your Warlord because they don't give up KPs.

[Gauntlet]

Does Yvraine have to be my warlord for anything?

The Ynnari characters can only be included in a detachment of Craftworlds/Drukhari/Harlequins if your Warlord is one of the Ynnari characters, and there has to be one of them in a detachment for that detachment to gain Strength From Death. So if you want to run Ynnari, your Warlord has to be one of those three.

[Avaris]

Interesting update: all the Indexes, aside from Index Imperium 2, have disappeared from the webstore, both physical and pdf. Really wish GW would officially alert us to this sort of thing. Don't think it means the rules are no longer useable, but indicates they no longer feel the need for them.

[LansXero]

Interesting update: all the Indexes, aside from Index Imperium 2, have disappeared from the webstore, both physical and pdf. Really wish GW would officially alert us to this sort of thing. Don't think it means the rules are no longer useable, but indicates they no longer feel the need for them.

the cycle of codex releases is complete, what need would there be of indecies anymore?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

For those extra units that didn't make it into Codices. We were talking earlier about whether or not they were going to phase out still-legal index-only units. This seems like strong evidence that they will.

[Requizen]

the cycle of codex releases is complete, what need would there be of indecies anymore?

Ynnari, Inquisition? That's all I can think of that isn't elsewhere, and maybe Inq is partially in Guard/Sisters Beta?

[Avaris]

There are the various odd units that are no longer in their main codexes. In terms of things which are in indexes but not in a main codex yet it is mostly Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Ynarri and Legion of the Dammed off the top of my head. Would not be surprised to see rules for some or all of these in WD over the next few months.

[Forum Explorer]

There are the various odd units that are no longer in their main codexes. In terms of things which are in indexes but not in a main codex yet it is mostly Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Ynarri and Legion of the Dammed off the top of my head. Would not be surprised to see rules for some or all of these in WD over the next few months.

I maintain that the only way to balance Ynnari is if they become an entire faction unto them ownselves rather than becoming a massive buff for Eldar and Dark Eldar armies. Because giving units shoot twice or fight twice when they really shouldn't have it, surprise surprise, is so OP Ynnari have been at the top competitive level since they came out.

[Cheesegear]

For those extra units that didn't make it into Codices. We were talking earlier about whether or not they were going to phase out still-legal index-only units. This seems like strong evidence that they will.

It wouldn't be fair if some players had access to rules, while other players didn't.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Exactly, that's why I see this as evidence that they will soon declare them no longer legal.

[Cheesegear]

One thing I noticed...

WC
Whether you’re using them as an army in their own right, or as allies to a wider Chaos force, the Fallen are as effective on the battlefield as they are inscrutable

What about as allies to an Imperium force?

[Blackhawk748]

It wouldn't be fair if some players had access to rules, while other players didn't.

And since when has GW cared about fair?