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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    In any case, I was planning on getting a few of the cult bikers to use as Rough Riders, but with all these other models coming out, and depending on what the actual rules are, I may well end up adding a whole GSC detachment to my Guard army.
    Unless they drastically change the brood brother rules, won't you basically not be playing guard at that point?
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    In any case, I was planning on getting a few of the cult bikers to use as Rough Riders, but with all these other models coming out, and depending on what the actual rules are, I may well end up adding a whole GSC detachment to my Guard army.
    GSC currently make Guard worse. Brood Brothers is a trash rule for trash people.
    You add Guard to GSC. Not the other way 'round.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Reviews of Kill Team Arena are starting to drop

    huh, not quite what I was expecting.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Kill team Arena looks interesting. Not a thing I'm at all interested in playing myself, but I'm curious to see how it develops. Definitely fits into my theory of how GW is wanting competitive play to develop towards smaller scale systems that can be a more controlled experience: assuming Arena proves to actually be a vaguely balanced experience it is a much more viable proposition for tournaments that can complete in a day. The strictly symmetrical set up and rules around kill team selection sound like a good prospect for competitive gaming which is more balanced than base 40k, so I wish it well!

    I feel the pricing might be a barrier though: needing to have one pack for every two players is a significant cost. Presumably the hope is for interested players to pick copies up themselves and bring them along to tournaments, rather than it all being on the TO, but for what you get £55 seems quite steep.

    ION, played the second session of the narrative escalation game I'm participating in. Two games, 1000 points, my Sisters remain undefeated.

    Game 1 was against the same Nids player as last time: his army remains solely close combat, and I was lucky enough that the first turn charges he got weren't especially effective, primarily due to his Broodlord getting overwatched to death when it double-charged my Penitent Engine and Immolator, and having a bubble within which all my Sisters had a 4+ invulnerable save. Sufficient close range firepower basically had him table at end of my turn 2.

    Second game was against Death Guard: much closer, I won due to being more mobile so reaching the objectives first. It was a scenario that awarded points at the end of each turn, so by turn 5 I had accrued an unassailable lead. Struggled against his armour though!

    Suspect I'll sub in a knight next time... 1250 points seems a reasonable point to do so.
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Welp, here we go again.

    I'm getting back into 40k after a couple year's hiatus. It started with just kill team, but I kept browsing fluff and army guides, and I finally picked up some rules last night. Of course, there's some sticker shock there, as aside from 2 codexes (Space Wolves and Necrons) and the rulebook, there's also these newfangled indexes and those Ancient Chapter Approved things have made a comeback. Right now, all I have is Index: Imperium I (Don't worry, I did my research. The unit that really sold me on 8th is index exclusive), but I'll be picking up the codexes and rulebook over the next few months. I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?

    Edit: Preliminary 750 point list obviously innacurate due to using the index, but I thought I'd submit it for appraisal. The bikers are kind of the centerpiece of the list (They're what drew me back), but the troops are just what I thought would go well with them. I'm also not 100% sure what wargear to use for the bikers. Should I keep them cheap with Chainswords, or give them some extra durability with storm shields?

    Patrol Detachment (Space Wolves)

    HQ: Wolf Lord on Bike -125 points
    -Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter

    Troops: 6 Grey Hunters -219 points
    -Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
    -Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
    -Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

    6 Grey Hunters -219 points
    -Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
    -Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
    -Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

    Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Bikers -180 points
    -Storm Bolters

    Total: 743 points
    Last edited by Squark; 2019-01-27 at 04:22 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?
    You wonít need 2017: both Necrons and Space Wolves had their codexes released in 2018, so they werenít included in the 2017 edition. Iím not actually sure thereíll be any updated points values for them in 2018 either: GW has stupid lead times on printing, so they might be too recent.

    In any case, I wouldnít recommend Chapter Approved of any year if the only thing your after is points values. By all rights they should be freely available, and there are other means of getting them. Iíd certainly consider CA for the other content, missions and battle zones for example, but it isnít a necessary product.

    Edit:
    The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.
    At the price point you can easily buy into Kill Team as a brand new player for about £100, which feels sort of ok compared to buy in for semi-competitive 40k, but Iím still conflicted. For what you get in Arena, it should be about £30 I reckon, particularly as this is a product GW needs to have good uptake for if they want their competitive Kill Team environment to exist.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-01-27 at 05:36 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    So the doubles tournament I hosted was yesterday. Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights were a really popular combo for some reason, but the winner was Orks backed by a Russ Spearhead.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    At the price point you can easily buy into Kill Team as a brand new player for about £100, which feels sort of ok compared to buy in for semi-competitive 40k, but Iím still conflicted. For what you get in Arena, it should be about £30 I reckon, particularly as this is a product GW needs to have good uptake for if they want their competitive Kill Team environment to exist.
    Its too much for what you're getting. Starter Sets for 40k are at a similat price point so they're competing with themselves, not to mention the fact that if I want to do Kill Team I can just buy a box or two and go play Heralds of Ruin Kill Team, and the rules for that are free.

    Basically, cut the price in half and we'll talk.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Its too much for what you're getting. Starter Sets for 40k are at a similat price point so they're competing with themselves, not to mention the fact that if I want to do Kill Team I can just buy a box or two and go play Heralds of Ruin Kill Team, and the rules for that are free.

    Basically, cut the price in half and we'll talk.
    The rules for everything are free. unless TOs / Store Owners want to stick their heads in the ground and pretend otherwise, but thats not healthy for business. You work around that, not pretend it doesnt exist.

    Arena is really underwhelming, but so have been most Kill Team releases: the boxed sets, commanders and now this.

    On related news, second round of our 3-week league is underway. Heroclix maps make surprisingly good mats for Kill Team and help a lot with noting down terrain, special locations, etc.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Welp, here we go again.

    I'm getting back into 40k after a couple year's hiatus. It started with just kill team, but I kept browsing fluff and army guides, and I finally picked up some rules last night. Of course, there's some sticker shock there, as aside from 2 codexes (Space Wolves and Necrons) and the rulebook, there's also these newfangled indexes and those Ancient Chapter Approved things have made a comeback. Right now, all I have is Index: Imperium I (Don't worry, I did my research. The unit that really sold me on 8th is index exclusive), but I'll be picking up the codexes and rulebook over the next few months. I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?

    Edit: Preliminary 750 point list obviously innacurate due to using the index, but I thought I'd submit it for appraisal. The bikers are kind of the centerpiece of the list (They're what drew me back), but the troops are just what I thought would go well with them. I'm also not 100% sure what wargear to use for the bikers. Should I keep them cheap with Chainswords, or give them some extra durability with storm shields?

    Patrol Detachment (Space Wolves)

    HQ: Wolf Lord on Bike -125 points
    -Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter

    Troops: 6 Grey Hunters -219 points
    -Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
    -Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
    -Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

    6 Grey Hunters -219 points
    -Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
    -Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
    -Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

    Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Bikers -180 points
    -Storm Bolters

    Total: 743 points
    It's easy enough to find the point changes from Chapter Approved 2018 online. I wouldn't buy it it that's all you are after. Chapter approved also put in all the point changes from 2017, so you only need the one. You do need the Codex though.

    Anyways, I would suggest picking up Power Fists in each squad. The Space Wolf bonus is +1 to hit, so it makes Power Fists actually pretty decent.




    In other news today was my tournament! And to start I didn't get to play because my alarm didn't go off!
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    These phones have the worst default features. It's loud, I have to manually turn off the beeping (very loud beeping) for every single app for notifications. I have to delete each timer before I can use the next. And for some stupid reason the default alarm only runs from Monday to Friday. So it didn't go off, I didn't get to play. Stupid phone, and stupid me for not catching that at 1:00 in the morning.


    So I got replaced by what I think was a Deathwatch player, but might have just been Space Marines. His stuff wasn't painted. But I did get a game in (it was also open gaming) and got to watch the tournament.

    Round 1:
    (Tyranids vs Guilliman) = Guilliman victory!
    Apparently the Tyranid player had some awful rolls, being needing to fight twice and shoot twice to kill a single squad of Hellblasters and a Dreadnaught respectively. And then to Smite down Guilliman he rolled double 1s with his Neurothrope into double 2s. Still a close game, and if he took Recon instead of Big Game Hunter he would've won.

    (Iron Hands/Grey Knights vs Sisters of Battle) = Sisters of Battle victory! The Grey Knight's luck finally ran out I guess.

    (Drukhari vs Deathwatch?) = Deathwatch victory! No idea what happened here.

    (Thousand Sons vs Ultramarines) = Thousand Sons Victory! Guess what happened.

    Round 2:
    (Guilliman vs Deathwatch?): The Deathwatch player had a lot of bikes. He got toasted.

    (Thousand Sons vs Sisters of Battle): Sisters of Battle are a hard counter to Thousand Sons with that relic. Which of course he took. And he was rolling hot for his Denies. The Thousand Sons player didn't get off a single power turn 2.

    Round 3:
    (Sisters of Battle vs Guilliman): Guilliman won. The Sisters player misunderstood Kingslayer, and selected it against Guilliman thinking it was every 2 wounds, not every 4 wounds. He also put one Pentient Engine in the corner to collect Recon points instead of a 5 man sister squad. So Guilliman smashed him. He lost all his Hellblasters, but still had all of his Dreadnaughts and Guilliman killing stuff.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

    Honourable Mentions

    Spoiler: T'au Empire
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    T'au, Battalion
    Fireblade
    (W) Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

    Strike Team (x10)
    Strike Team (x10)
    Strike Team (x5)

    Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock
    Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock

    Shield Drones (x7)
    Shield Drones (x6)
    Shield Drones (x6)

    Broadsides (x3); HYMP, SMS, ATS

    T'au, Battalion
    Darkstrider
    Shadowsun

    Strike Team (x5)
    Strike Team (x5)
    Strike Team (x5)

    Sa'cea, Vanguard
    Ethereal
    Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

    Firesight Marksman
    Firesight Marksman
    Firesight Marksman

    Seems legit. ITC is weird like that.


    Spoiler: Imperium (Catachan)
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    Cadian, Spearhead
    (W) Creed
    Master of Ordnance
    Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
    Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
    Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars

    Catachan, Brigade
    Company Commander; Power Sword
    Company Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
    Straken

    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword

    Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
    Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
    Priest

    Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
    Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
    Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon

    Basilisk; Heavy Bolter
    Manticore; Heavy Bolter
    Manticore; Heavy Bolter

    Krast
    Knight Castellan

    Sure thing.


    Spoiler: Chaos (Death Guard)
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    Death Guard, Spearhead
    (W) Daemon Prince with Wings; Sappurating Plate

    Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe
    Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe

    Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought; Butcher Cannon Arrays
    Plagueburst Crawler
    Plagueburst Crawler

    SHAD
    Mortarion

    SHAD
    Magnus the Red


    Spoiler: T'au Empire
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    T'au, Battalion
    Shadowsun
    Darkstrider
    Ethereal

    Strike Team (x5)
    Strike Team (x5)
    Strike Team (x5)

    Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS (x2), ATS, Velocity Tracker Weird.

    Shield Drones (x8)
    Shield Drones (x8)
    Shield Drones (x6)

    Broadsides (x3), HYMP (x6), SMS (x6), ATS

    T'au, Battalion
    Fireblade
    Coldstar; Burst Cannon, HOBC, Missile Pod, ATS

    Strike Team (x12)
    Strike Team (x12)
    Strike Team (x5)

    T'au, Outrider
    Fireblade

    Dahyek Grekh This is the dude from Blackstone Fortress.

    Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
    Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
    Pathfinders (x8); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone

    I'm so confused. But that's ITC for you.


    Y'all ready for this...

    Spoiler: Imperium (Adeptus Ministorum)
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    Bloody Rose, Brigade
    (W) Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
    Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Sword
    Missionary

    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

    Arco-Flagellants (x6)
    Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
    Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
    Dialogus

    Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
    Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

    Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
    Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
    Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword

    Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
    Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
    Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)

    Ebon Chalice, Supreme Command
    Celestine
    Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
    Missionary

    Imagifier Hahahahahaha. Index/2 doesn't invalidate Index/1.

    Blood Angels, Supreme Command
    Librarian Dreadnought
    Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
    Tycho the Lost wat

    Cue people thinking that Sororitas Storm Bolters aren't even good. Then again, if you know the meta is Fearless hordes, what's better than 9 Point chicks with Storm Bolters?


    Spoiler: Orks
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    Evil Sunz, Battalion
    (W) Warboss; Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Attack Squig
    Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

    Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
    Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
    Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs

    Evil Sunz, Battalion
    Weirdboy
    Weirdboy
    Weirdboy

    Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
    Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
    Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa

    Bad Moons, Battalion
    Warboss; Shoota, Big Choppa, Attack Squig
    Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

    Gretchin (x30)
    Gretchin (x30)
    Gretchin (x30)

    Lootas (x15)
    Lootas (x10)

    inb4 Ork player; "I'm too good to use Grot Shields. #NotMyOrks."




    Spoiler: 8. Imperium (Mars)
    Show
    Krast, Super-Heavies
    Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber
    Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber
    (C) Knight Crusader; Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubbers (x2), Ironstorm Missile Pod, RFBC

    Mars, Battalion
    Belisarius Cawl
    (W) Tech-Priest Enginseer

    Skitarii Rangers (x5)
    Skitarii Vanguard (x5)
    Kataphron Destroyers (x3); Cognis Flamers (x3), Plasma Culverins (x3)

    Cybernetica Datasmith; Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

    Kastelan Robots (x2); Heavy Phosphor Blasters (x6)
    Onager Dunecrawler; Cognis Heavy Stubbers (x2), Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether
    Onager Dunecrawler; Cognis Heavy Stubbers (x2), Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether

    Assassins, Vanguard
    Callidus
    Culexus
    Culexus


    Spoiler: 8. Chaos Daemons (Nurgle Daemons)
    Show
    Daemons, Battalion
    (W) Bloodmaster; Rage Incarnate, The Crimson Crown
    Sloppity Bilepiper

    Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

    Nurgle, Battalion
    Poxbringer
    Spoilpox Scrivener

    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

    Fortification
    Feculant Gnarlmaw

    Christ on a plate. 200 models and change. Fair play, mate.


    Spoiler: 7. Aeldari
    Show
    Harlequins, Vanguard
    (W) Troupe Master; Power Sword, Player of the Twilight, The Storied Sword <Midnight Sorrow>

    Solitaire; Cegorach's Rose <Midnight Sorrow>
    Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>
    Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>

    Ulthwť, Battalion
    Eldrad Ulthran
    Warlock Skyrunner

    Rangers (x5)
    Rangers (x5)
    Rangers (x10)

    Prophets of Flesh, Battalion
    Urien Rakarth
    Haemonculus; Hexrifle, Venom Blade, Vexator Mask

    Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
    Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
    Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade

    Grotesques (x10)
    Grotesques (x9)
    Grotesques (x9)

    It made Top 8 so I apparently don't know anything anymore.


    Spoiler: 6. Chaos (Chaos Daemons)
    Show
    Thousand Sons, Supreme Command
    Ahriman on Disc
    (W) Daemon Prince with Wings
    Sorcerer on Disc
    Sorcerer on Disc

    Chaos Daemons, Battalion
    Daemon Prince with Wings; Axe, <Khorne> Pretty sure to get the <Titan>-killing Axe.
    Poxbringer; Balesword

    Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x29); Champion
    Pink Horrors (x25)

    <Tzeentch>, Battalion
    Changecaster
    Sorcerer

    Brimstone Horrors (x30)
    Tzaangors (x29); Musician & Champion
    Tzaangors (x21); Musician & Champion

    It's lists like these that make me wish I played Chaos. I mean...Fluff is right out the window, 'cause who gives a ****? But each unit is different whilst still being effective at what it does.


    Spoiler: 5. Imperium (Knights)
    Show
    Krast, Super-Heavies
    Knight Gallant
    (W) Knight Crusader; Avenger, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod
    Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber

    Cadia, Battalion[/U]
    Company Commander
    Tank Commander; Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters (x3)

    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
    Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
    Infantry Squad; Sniper Rifle

    Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars
    Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars

    Dark Angels, Air Wing
    Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
    Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
    Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2) I'm not sure if CanCon was using new Bolter rules, but these would be even better if it was the case.

    I don't see anything wrong here. I like this list a lot. A place for everything, and everything in its place.


    Spoiler: 3. Chaos Daemons (Nurgle)
    Show
    Nurgle Daemons, Battalion
    Poxbringer
    Sloppity Bilepiper
    Spoilpox Scrivener

    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
    Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

    Fortification
    Feculant Gnarlmaw

    Chaos Daemons, Supreme Command
    Bloodmaster
    (W) Fluxmaster
    Fluxmaster

    Summoning (~500)

    A key important rule is that Summoning doesn't count as Reinforcements, which means you're allowed to do it on Turn 1. Boom.
    As always, you do not have to tell your opponent what you have 'in Reserve', because fact is, you don't know (although you definitely do).


    Spoiler: 3. Orks
    Show

    Bad Moons, Batallion
    (W) Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
    Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun

    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)

    Tankbustas (x15); Rokkits (x15), Bomb Squigs (x6)

    Lootas (x15)

    Evil Sunz, Battalion
    Warboss; Kombi-Skorcha, Big Choppa
    Weirdboy

    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)

    Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)
    Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)

    Blood Axes, Battalion
    Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
    Weirdboy

    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)
    Gretchin (x10)

    Once again, 'real Ork players' have a cry about Gretchin being a competitive unit. What do you expect? They're 3 Points each and literally protect your other models. Whilst also being Objective Secured.


    Spoiler: 2. Imperium (Deathwatch)
    Show
    Valhalla, Battalion
    (W) Company Commander
    Company Commander

    Conscripts (x30)
    Infantry Squad; Mortar
    Infantry Squad; Mortar

    Wyvern; Heavy Bolter

    Deathwatch, Battalion
    Watch Master
    Librarian with Jump Pack; Force Stave, Storm Bolter

    Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
    - Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
    - Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
    - Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
    - Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

    Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
    - Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
    - Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
    - Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
    - Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

    Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
    - Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
    - Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
    - Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
    - Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

    Krast
    Crusader; Avenger Gatling, RFBC, Stormspear Rocket Pod

    Maybe they are using the rules for Bolt weapons? If you know the meta is hordes, bring Storm Bolters...Deathwatch Storm Bolters. Use Combat Squads to have the Biker and Terminators run around with Relentless Storm Bolters, whilst your Veterans stay on points with the Watch Master. It's not rocket science.





    Undefeated

    Spoiler: 1. Tyranids (yes, really)
    Show
    Leviathan, Battalion
    Neurothrope
    (W) Malanthrope

    Termagants (x27)
    Termagants (x27)
    Termagants (x26)
    Termagants (x26)
    Termagants (x25)
    Termagants (x25)

    Biovores (x2)

    Kraken, Battalion
    Old One Eye
    Broodlord; Ymgarl Factor

    Rippers (x3)
    Rippers (x3)
    Rippers (x3)

    GSC, Supreme Command
    Magus
    Patriarch
    Primus

    Purestrains (x18); Rending Claws

    Fearless hordes OP.
    ITC is bat****. 'Nuff said.


    Things I learned;
    Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
    The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

    Things I learned;
    Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
    The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.
    The strat that lets it ignore all -to hit is welcome as well. Silly lists, we'll likely have a ton of fun trying new things from them, but damn do they look nothing at all like what we play / consider good.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Silly lists [...] but damn do they look nothing at all like what we play / consider good.
    They're silly lists because the ITC is silly.

    The ITC format is supposed to 'fix' what's wrong with 40K at any given time. In a way, the ITC competitors are supposed to be on the cutting edge of the game...With which FLG can take that data back to GW where GW can do nothing make changes as they see fit, based on whether or not something was intended to be that way.

    The way to do this, obviously, was to allow Factions to play to their strengths. "Choose how you win." That way, say, just castle up and win a T'au army doesn't need to cross the board to win games. That's all well and good, and I fully support it, and give it an 'A' for effort...

    But a 'D' in execution. Fact is, 40K is still a game, where statistics and numbers rule. With one of the core tenets of the game being "Whoever has the most models on the board, is more likely to win games." The ITC doesn't change that...In fact, it pretty much reinforces it. Just cluster everything around one or two Objectives in your own DZ and kill 1-4 units per turn. You can kill more than 4 units per turn, but there's no real reason to do. So why bother? Just keep everything cheap so you can have more of it.
    After all, no matter how many units you take...It still isn't worth your opponent's time killing more than 4 units per turn - if that. Unless they're going for a tabling. Except if you've got 150 models on the board...Your opponent isn't going to table you anytime soon...So just go back to killing the minimum you need to.

    inb4 Age of Sigmar defense;
    There's no to wound modifiers except on specific units, which makes no sense.
    Multi-Damage weapons carry over into the next model, which makes no sense.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-28 at 04:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    snip
    Huh, not much synapse in that nid list. And what was OOE for. looks like ork #8 should have been able to give them a run for their money.

    Oh, hey, a wyvern!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Wow, what are all these different Daemon characters suddenly? What's a fluxmaster? Did their codex add stuff?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Huh, not much synapse in that nid list.
    There's loads of Synapse. Conga line one model to the Synapase and you're done.
    Welcome to ITC.

    And what was OOE for.
    He's a Character with 9 Wounds. What do you mean what's he for?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Wow, what are all these different Daemon characters suddenly? What's a fluxmaster? Did their codex add stuff?
    Bloodmaster = Herald of Khorne
    Skullmaster = ...on Juggernaut
    Blood Throne = ...on Chariot

    Changecaster = Herald of Tzeentch
    Fateskimmer = ...on Chariot
    Fluxmaster = ...on Disc

    Poxbringer = Herald of Nurgle.
    Sloppity Bilepiper = Different Herald.
    Spoilpox Scrivener = Even more different Herald.

    Basically...Blame Age of Sigmar, and the fact that they need to sell the same model over two systems.

    Heralds of Slaanesh still exist because GW forgot to make new Sigmar models for Slaanesh until five seconds ago.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    And here I was thinking a fluxmaster was a particularly expensive brand of headphones. Odd that they renamed everything for 40k but didnt bother for AOS.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    And here I was thinking a fluxmaster was a particularly expensive brand of headphones. Odd that they renamed everything for 40k but didnt bother for AOS.
    lol
    In AoS it appears they renamed the Khorne and Nurgle ones.
    But not the Tzeentch ones.
    Weird.

    EDIT:
    To know that...I checked the webstore. Not Battletomes.
    Marketing might not match up with the game.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-28 at 09:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Flux can mean change, but it can also mean dysentery. Kind of ironic that a Tzeentch name would fit Nurgle almost equally well.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There's loads of Synapse. Conga line one model to the Synapase and you're done.
    Welcome to ITC.
    Hard to argue with results at any rate.


    He's a Character with 9 Wounds. What do you mean what's he for?
    And? He priced higher than other HQ units, provides no synapse, synergizes Carnifexes which are non-existent in this army. I guess he's the only anti-tank they have, but this isn't an army built on killing things so not sure why one unit of anti-tank is needed in the first place.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    SECTOR MECHANICUS TECTONIC FRAGDRILL $60,00
    CODEX: GENESTEALER CULTS (HB) (ENGLISH) $40,00
    DATACARDS: GENESTEALER CULTS (SPANISH) $15,00
    DATACARDS: GENESTEALER CULTS (ENGLISH) $15,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS CLAMAVUS $25,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS LOCUS $25,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS MAGUS $25,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS NEXOS $25,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS SANCTUS $25,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS BROOD BROTHERS $40,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS ATALAN JACKALS $55,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS JACKAL ALPHUS $35,00
    GENESTEALER CULTS DICE $30,00
    GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.

    More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

    Sources:
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...stealer-cults/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/
    Last edited by LansXero; 2019-01-28 at 10:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.
    I don't think that I will be alone in saying that I'll be quite happy to wait for a week and then pick up the book/tiles/cards for peanuts on eBay after everyone else has done breaking down the sprues and selling the miniatures to collectors.
    I want to play Kill Team: Arena, but I'm not prepared to put down that amount of money to then have yet more models that - as pretty as they are - I have no interest in building, painting or playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    (Iron Hands/Grey Knights vs Sisters of Battle) = Sisters of Battle victory! The Grey Knight's luck finally ran out I guess.
    I remember you describing the Iron Hands' list a few days ago and being confused as to what he was hoping to achieve with such a non-meta choice. Did that ever become apparent, or was it a radical experiment that was doomed to failure before it got off the ground?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    And? He priced higher than other HQ units
    He can't be targeted, and even if he does get targeted, he's got 9 Wounds and Regen. He can't even be one-shotted by an Oathbreaker.
    When you've got 100+ models in front of you, not being targeted is a big deal.

    provides no synapse
    He can't be targeted.

    Why do you even need Synapse?
    A single Synapse model covers a 24" circle, not including Dominion or Synaptic Lynchpin.

    If one model is within range, the entire unit is. With ~30 model units, you can cover the entire board, and still remain within range to a single Synapse model.

    The only reason you need more Synapse is if either
    a) You're running Hive Tyrants and/or Swarmlord, who can be targeted, and therefore die on Turn 1 (or just straight up aren't on the board because they're in Reserve), or
    b) You plan on moving the Synapse model, and thus, the Synapse circle changes position.

    If you have a Synapse model that can't be targeted, and doesn't change position? Who cares how much Synapse you don't have. You have all the Synapse you need.

    synergizes Carnifexes which are non-existent in this army
    He can't be targeted.

    I guess he's the only anti-tank they have
    He's an anti-Turn 1 Charge unit. If you Charge the Termagants, the Swarm opens up and your unit gets crushed.


    The most important takeaway that I can impart is two-fold...
    1. Tournament players don't play their Factions, or the game, the way a normal person would, and
    2. ITC players definitely don't play the same way normal people do (and that's a big problem, IMO).

    I can't stress this anywhere more obviously than with Orks.
    Gretchin are one of the best units in the book.
    But who plays Orks to put ~100 Gretchin on the board?

    T'au; It's all cheap Infantry and Shield Drones. Where's all the 'Suits? Oh wait. 'Suits aren't cheap Infantry holding Objectives.
    See that big fancy Hive Tyrant you've got? ...It's garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.
    He's the Archangel Michael, to Horus' Lucifer. I know that image anywhere.

    Spoiler
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    Spoiler
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    ...But, that said. Doesn't make it a good model, though.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-01-28 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.
    I'm *really* not a fan of the "I'm flying around with a pointy rock stuck RIGHT up my butt" poses. Some miniatures get away with it by virtue of being nicely balanced on the base, like Astorath the Grim, but it looks a bit weird most of the time.

    A model as big and as prominent as Sanguinius needs to look it's absolute best, and I think that they ought to have had him standing upright with his wings aloft, beatific and regal. I know they're going for a dynamic pose in order to have him in a diorama with one of his brothers as they did with Ferrus/Fulgrim and Magnus/Leman Russ, but if you're NOT using the diorama then I think this pose looks very awkward and static. Not one of the better sculpts, I think.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I don't think that I will be alone in saying that I'll be quite happy to wait for a week and then pick up the book/tiles/cards for peanuts on eBay after everyone else has done breaking down the sprues and selling the miniatures to collectors.
    I want to play Kill Team: Arena, but I'm not prepared to put down that amount of money to then have yet more models that - as pretty as they are - I have no interest in building, painting or playing.
    I donít think there are any models in Arena that collectors will be after though? Itís just the scenery: the newly spoiled kill teams are seperate. Which is why itís really overpriced for what it is, should be half as much IMO.

    I mean, if anything is going to be a loss leader, this should be it: sell KT Arena Ďcheaplyí, encourage purchase of models for the kill teams themselves. The current price point will just discourage take up.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Ambush looks properly tricky. Is that the most "complex" Faction Ability we've seen? Mostly they're just like stat bonuses or extra usable abilities, this one completely changes the early phase of the game.


    On Arena:

    The price is steep, but I kind of understand why they put it there. From a sales standpoint, it's a box that will be a one-off purchase for players, there's no reason to buy multiple unless you reeeeaally want that specific terrain, which I can't see anyone caring about. And if you have a small, more casual community, you might also only see half sales since they specifically state two people can use one box to play the full experience. So for a box that gets you a full competitive experience focused on balance, a one-time buy in of $90 is pretty cheap.

    Of course, that assumes there won't be expansions. Underworlds is only $90 if you buy the core box and one expansion of your choice, but everyone knows that if you want to keep up there's a few sets you really should purchase for the cards (I've bought everything because I love the game, but I understand the frustration with that system). I think it's safe to assume that if the game does well, there'll be card and probably board expansions. The frequency and cost of these will really be the deciding factor in whether the cost of the core game is worthwhile.

    IMO if it's a one-time $90 for the core box and then once or twice per year after a $30 expansion for new missions etc, that's a pretty reasonable price for a full competitive ruleset with boards/minis/cards/etc that will last you for a long time. It's a bit steep for just a board game, especially considering you still need to buy other models, but I think if it's a one-off or once-per-year thing, then it's not that bad for people that already have Armies or Kill Teams. The price will drive away newcomers, but if you've been playing basic KT for a while and are seeking a more competitive style, or are new and are only coming in for a competitive ruleset, I don't think it'll prevent you from getting onboard.

    As for the rules:

    -Inclusion of rules on how to run a Tournament is great. Dunno how great they are, but it's a solid gesture for a company that's basically given tourney scenes the cold shoulder until the past year or so.
    -Removing the Scouting phase is something I like. I feel like it adds some fun, but you can basically tell what most people would use and it got a bit repetitive.
    -I quite like the way choosing your objectives works, and it can add some tactica to picking your Command Roster and what not.
    -Better clarification of what "being in cover" means is only a good thing. Should have been there in the first place, but thanks, Arena.
    -Requiring tokens is questionable, but I like it since it prevents "did that guy run? I can't remember" syndrome which I saw too many times at my store
    -I really like the corridor and door setup. It feels much more tactical than the regular kill team box, which often just felt like running in circles around one giant piece of terrain and huddling behind random scatter stuff. The halls feel much better designed for movement and line of fire tactics.
    -Not sure about some of the random Killzone stuff, but it adds some variance to the game, at least.

    Overall I want to play some games to see how it feels. I'll definitely be buying it (especially since I have a bunch of store credit to burn through), so I'll give more thoughts on it later.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    So, let me see if I've read this right:
    1) You take 3 units with Cult Ambush (in a minimum Battalion with a couple of Pysker HQs cause why not).
    2) You pay 1CP, and put down a line of 6 Ambush markers across the front of your DZ.
    3) The opponent isn't allowed to come within 9" of the markers during their movement phase, making 1st turn charges almost impossible.
    4) You pay 1CP, pick up all the markers and say "whoops, they were in Reserve all along".
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.

    More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

    Sources:
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...stealer-cults/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/
    I mean, at least it has an *ok* tip for thrusting. Its still obviously a cutter first and foremost, but its not a bad sword from what I can see so far. I agree with the rest though, he looks so...boring. Should looked like one of these:

    Spoiler: Good poses
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