Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[LansXero]

On Arena:

The price is steep, but I kind of understand why they put it there. (...) if you've been playing basic KT for a while and are seeking a more competitive style (...)

Its like the NOVA Open rules being available oficially for free didnt register with as many people as I though. Also, there is already a corridors & doors expansion, its called Rogue Trader, which comes with actual minis. Finally, there are a ton of Zone Mortalis terrain sets floating out there, which are exactly that.

Spoiler: Case in point:

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From our Kill Team league: https://www.facebook.com/events/331005750820862/

[Destro_Yersul]

Sanguinius has got a silly head, too, thus continuing the trend.

[Forum Explorer]

So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

Spoiler: 16. Imperium (Catachan)

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Cadian, Spearhead
(W) Creed
Master of Ordnance
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars

Catachan, Brigade
Company Commander; Power Sword
Company Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Straken

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword

Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Priest

Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon

Basilisk; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter

Krast
Knight Castellan

Sure thing.

Spoiler: 15. Chaos (Death Guard)

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Death Guard, Spearhead
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings; Sappurating Plate

Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe
Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe

Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought; Butcher Cannon Arrays
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

SHAD
Mortarion

SHAD
Magnus the Red

Spoiler: 14. Chaos Daemons (Nurgle Daemons)

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Daemons, Battalion
(W) Bloodmaster; Rage Incarnate, The Crimson Crown
Sloppity Bilepiper

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Nurgle, Battalion
Poxbringer
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Christ on a plate. 200 models and change. Fair play, mate.

Spoiler: 13. Chaos (Chaos Daemons)

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Thousand Sons, Supreme Command
Ahriman on Disc
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings
Sorcerer on Disc
Sorcerer on Disc

Chaos Daemons, Battalion
Daemon Prince with Wings; Axe, <Khorne> Pretty sure to get the <Titan>-killing Axe.
Poxbringer; Balesword

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x29); Champion
Pink Horrors (x25)

<Tzeentch>, Battalion
Changecaster
Sorcerer

Brimstone Horrors (x30)
Tzaangors (x29); Musician & Champion
Tzaangors (x21); Musician & Champion

It's lists like these that make me wish I played Chaos. I mean...Fluff is right out the window, 'cause who gives a ****? But each unit is different whilst still being effective at what it does.

Spoiler: 11. T'au Empire

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T'au, Battalion
Shadowsun
Darkstrider
Ethereal

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS (x2), ATS, Velocity Tracker Weird.

Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3), HYMP (x6), SMS (x6), ATS

T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
Coldstar; Burst Cannon, HOBC, Missile Pod, ATS

Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x5)

T'au, Outrider
Fireblade

Dahyek Grekh This is the dude from Blackstone Fortress.

Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x8); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone

I'm so confused. But that's ITC for you.

Y'all ready for this...

Spoiler: 10. Imperium (Adeptus Ministorum)

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Bloody Rose, Brigade
(W) Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Sword
Missionary

Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Arco-Flagellants (x6)
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Dialogus

Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword

Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)

Ebon Chalice, Supreme Command
Celestine
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Missionary

Imagifier Hahahahahaha. Index/2 doesn't invalidate Index/1.

Blood Angels, Supreme Command
Librarian Dreadnought
Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Tycho the Lost wat

Cue people thinking that Sororitas Storm Bolters aren't even good. Then again, if you know the meta is Fearless hordes, what's better than 9 Point chicks with Storm Bolters?

Spoiler: 9. Imperium (Knights)

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Krast, Super-Heavies
Knight Gallant
(W) Knight Crusader; Avenger, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber

Cadia, Battalion[/U]
Company Commander
Tank Commander; Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters (x3)

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Sniper Rifle

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars

Dark Angels, Air Wing
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2) I'm not sure if CanCon was using new Bolter rules, but these would be even better if it was the case.

I don't see anything wrong here. I like this list a lot. A place for everything, and everything in its place.

Spoiler: 8. Orks

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Evil Sunz, Battalion
(W) Warboss; Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy

Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa

Bad Moons, Battalion
Warboss; Shoota, Big Choppa, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)

Lootas (x15)
Lootas (x10)

inb4 Ork player; "I'm too good to use Grot Shields. #NotMyOrks."

Spoiler: 6. Chaos Daemons (Nurgle)

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Nurgle Daemons, Battalion
Poxbringer
Sloppity Bilepiper
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Chaos Daemons, Supreme Command
Bloodmaster
(W) Fluxmaster
Fluxmaster

Summoning (~500)

A key important rule is that Summoning doesn't count as Reinforcements, which means you're allowed to do it on Turn 1. Boom.
As always, you do not have to tell your opponent what you have 'in Reserve', because fact is, you don't know (although you definitely do).

Spoiler: 5. Orks

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Bad Moons, Batallion
(W) Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Tankbustas (x15); Rokkits (x15), Bomb Squigs (x6)

Lootas (x15)

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Warboss; Kombi-Skorcha, Big Choppa
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)
Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)

Blood Axes, Battalion
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Once again, 'real Ork players' have a cry about Gretchin being a competitive unit. What do you expect? They're 3 Points each and literally protect your other models. Whilst also being Objective Secured.

Spoiler: 4. Aeldari

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Harlequins, Vanguard
(W) Troupe Master; Power Sword, Player of the Twilight, The Storied Sword <Midnight Sorrow>

Solitaire; Cegorach's Rose <Midnight Sorrow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>

Ulthwé, Battalion
Eldrad Ulthran
Warlock Skyrunner

Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x10)

Prophets of Flesh, Battalion
Urien Rakarth
Haemonculus; Hexrifle, Venom Blade, Vexator Mask

Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade

Grotesques (x10)
Grotesques (x9)
Grotesques (x9)

It made Top 8 so I apparently don't know anything anymore.

Spoiler: 3. T'au Empire

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T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
(W) Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock
Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock

Shield Drones (x7)
Shield Drones (x6)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3); HYMP, SMS, ATS

T'au, Battalion
Darkstrider
Shadowsun

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Sa'cea, Vanguard
Ethereal
Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman

Seems legit. ITC is weird like that.

Spoiler: 2. Imperium (Deathwatch)

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Valhalla, Battalion
(W) Company Commander
Company Commander

Conscripts (x30)
Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad; Mortar

Wyvern; Heavy Bolter

Deathwatch, Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian with Jump Pack; Force Stave, Storm Bolter

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Krast
Crusader; Avenger Gatling, RFBC, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Maybe they are using the rules for Bolt weapons? If you know the meta is hordes, bring Storm Bolters...Deathwatch Storm Bolters. Use Combat Squads to have the Biker and Terminators run around with Relentless Storm Bolters, whilst your Veterans stay on points with the Watch Master. It's not rocket science.

---

Undefeated

Spoiler: 1. Tyranids (yes, really)

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Leviathan, Battalion
Neurothrope
(W) Malanthrope

Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x25)
Termagants (x25)

Biovores (x2)

Kraken, Battalion
Old One Eye
Broodlord; Ymgarl Factor

Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)

GSC, Supreme Command
Magus
Patriarch
Primus

Purestrains (x18); Rending Claws

Fearless hordes OP.
ITC is bat****. 'Nuff said.

Things I learned;
Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.

It really looks like I'm missing something with those Demon armies. Wouldn't they suffer horribly from morale? I mean, they aren't fearless and don't have a way to be fearless right?

To explain the Eldar list, is I think they are character hunting. Take Headhunter and Kingslayer, a ton of sniper rifles and other units that can target characters directly and go to town. All of these lists have a ton of characters after all, and most are pretty squishy. Then just use the Grotesques to tie units up and honestly do some pretty decent damage to the majority of these lists, while just capping a couple of objectives. I'm not surprised they didn't take first, but it's an interesting strategy. I wonder if they faced the Tyranid player, I feel they had the best chance of beating them. Though I also wonder why they didn't take Alaric.

I'm surprised the Knight list didn't do better. It looks like it would rip apart a couple of the other top lists. But maybe it was just a coincidence in matchmaking. After all, I think the 200 model army would wreck the Knight army.

I remember you describing the Iron Hands' list a few days ago and being confused as to what he was hoping to achieve with such a non-meta choice. Did that ever become apparent, or was it a radical experiment that was doomed to failure before it got off the ground?

He was just operating off of luck and my meta being soft. It seems he never got matched up with someone even relatively competitive during the season, or he was really lucky in those games. (Or someone being competitive. If his opponents continuously saw he was playing Iron Hands/Grey Knights, and then brought a weaker list to have a good game he could see the success that saw him to the finals, where the kid gloves came off, and he immediately lost.)

[Brookshw]

GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.

Seriously. $55 for some bikes? Sheesh. $35 for one bike w/ a sniper rifle? Bwah?

Let's see, $11/biker, maaaaybe a buck for a sniper rifle bit, EASY conversion work. I think I know what I'd do.

He can't be targeted, and even if he does get targeted, he's got 9 Wounds and Regen. He can't even be one-shotted by an Oathbreaker.
When you've got 100+ models in front of you, not being targeted is a big deal.

I mean, sure, but if he's not doing something useful then who cares?

Why do you even need Synapse?
A single Synapse model covers a 24" circle, not including Dominion or Synaptic Lynchpin.

If one model is within range, the entire unit is. With ~30 model units, you can cover the entire board, and still remain within range to a single Synapse model.

Yup, that's how synapse works, checks out.

The only reason you need more Synapse is if either
a) You're running Hive Tyrants and/or Swarmlord, who can be targeted, and therefore die on Turn 1 (or just straight up aren't on the board because they're in Reserve), or
b) You plan on moving the Synapse model, and thus, the Synapse circle changes position.

If you have a Synapse model that can't be targeted, and doesn't change position? Who cares how much Synapse you don't have. You have all the Synapse you need.

Remember how you just pointed out OOE isn't going to be taken out by an Oathbreaker? Guess what can? The other synapse.

He can't be targeted.

Or contribute much. Remember, other HQs are cheaper, synapse, psychic (mostly) they can do stuff to contribute while hiding.

He's an anti-Turn 1 Charge unit. If you Charge the Termagants, the Swarm opens up and your unit gets crushed.

if if a small squad hitting you, sure? 30 orks? 20 genestealers? You kill...5? Not really crushing it. What's he doing after T1, distraction carnifex?

The most important takeaway that I can impart is two-fold...
1. Tournament players don't play their Factions, or the game, the way a normal person would, and
2. ITC players definitely don't play the same way normal people do (and that's a big problem, IMO).

I get your point, who's bringing 200ish models to a game? Not many normal people. But even within the scope of ITC the opportunity cost on OOE over, say, another neurothrope and some more biovores? A squad of genestealers (hiding in nodes no less). Again, results speak for themselves though.

Were you there by any chance, and if so, what did OOE actually do? I think we're largely theory talking and knowledge of how it actually played out would be good.

[Cheesegear]

I mean, sure, but if he's not doing something useful then who cares?

He is doing something. Not dying. 'Not dying' counts as 'doing something' because it's ITC.

What's he doing after T1, distraction carnifex?

Being an untargetable model, I can't see how he'd be a distraction.
A model that's immune to shooting attacks would be really good at holding an Objective.

Were you there by any chance, and if so, what did OOE actually do?

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch, against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins)
Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does.

[Brookshw]

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch, against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins)
Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does.

Cool, I'll check it out.

[Avaris]

Hi all,

I’m trying to work out a ‘full points’ build for my Sisters to act as a guide to the final models I need to convert up in the current build. The idea is to have a 2000 point list I can then draw from for other games, including adapting it into a more MSU build if I want a brigade or multiple battalions instead of the below. Not aiming for WAAC competitive, just a hopefully solid build which can give good casual games. Any thoughts on the below? I’ve included some comments on why certain units are there. You’ll note I haven’t exactly built around Acts of Faith: found them fairly underwhelming so far!

Spoiler

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Battalion Detachment

Celestine 160
5 Seraphim, 4 Inferno Pistols, plasma pistol, power sword - 92
(Celestine and a few friends who will stay with the main ‘fortress’ initially, than sally out to strike high value targets)

Canoness, Power Maul, Storm Bolter - 51
Warlord trait: Indomitable Belief. Relic: Book of St Lucius
Holy Trinity Squad: 15 Sisters, 2 Flamers, Combi-melta, Simulacrum Imperialis - 15*9+2*6+15+10= 172
Support 1: 5 Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters, Combi-flamer - 5*9+2*2+8=57
Support 2: 5 Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters, Combi-flamer - 5*9+2*2+8=57
(‘Fortress’ with 5+ Invulnerable save, 4+ with Celestine around, with large squad available to use Holy Trinity when the enemy get close)


Canoness, Power Maul, Combi-Plasma - 60
6 Retributors, 4 Heavy Bolters, combi-plasma, Simulacrum Imperialis - 6*9+4*10+11+10= 115
(Long range fire support with canoness for re-rolls of 1s)

Penitent Engine - 100
Penitent Engine - 100

9 Repentia - 9*15 = 135
Mistress of Repentance - 35
Rhino, 2 Storm Bolters - 73+4=77

Outrider Detachment

5 Dominions, 4 Flamers, combi-flamer- 5*10+4*6+8=82
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

Canoness, power sword, inferno pistol - 56
5 Dominions, 4 melta guns, combi-melta - 5*10+4*14+15=121
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

Canoness, Storm Bolter, Power Maul - 51
5 Dominions, 5 Storm Bolters - 60
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

3 Immolator mounted squads to reinforce the lines and go hunting where necessary, with canoness support where re-rolls are useful. If facing a psyker heavy army one of the Canonesses will deploy with the fortress and take the Brazier

10 Seraphim, 4 Hand Flamers - 122
5
(For the deep strike hand flamer stratagem)


1997
Command points: 3+5+1 = 9
Faith points: 3+(76/10)=10

[Destro_Yersul]

I have also played around a bit, and come up with a list for that army blog thing I want to do. Pretty sure this is what I'm ultimately going with, which means the minis on this list are the ones I'll prioritise finishing. I'll still do the other stuff, of course. Thoughts on the list are welcome.

Unless they're 'buy more Tzaangors.'

Spoiler

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Thousand Sons (2006pts, 12CP)

(W) Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince (Wings, Sword) Helm of the Third Eye
Daemon Prince (Wings, Axe) Dark Matter Crystal
Daemon Prince (Wings, Talons)

Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)

Tzaangor Shaman
Helbrute (Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher)

Tzaangor Enlightened x9 (greatbows)

Predator (Autocannon, two Lascannons)

Heldrake (Baleflamer)

If I run up against anyone super uptight about 6 points over, either they can add something small or I can drop a single Tzaangor. I don't really expect to, though.

[Forum Explorer]

I have also played around a bit, and come up with a list for that army blog thing I want to do. Pretty sure this is what I'm ultimately going with, which means the minis on this list are the ones I'll prioritise finishing. I'll still do the other stuff, of course. Thoughts on the list are welcome.

Unless they're 'buy more Tzaangors.'

Spoiler

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Thousand Sons (2006pts, 12CP)

(W) Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince (Wings, Sword) Helm of the Third Eye
Daemon Prince (Wings, Axe) Dark Matter Crystal
Daemon Prince (Wings, Talons)

Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)

Tzaangor Shaman
Helbrute (Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher)

Tzaangor Enlightened x9 (greatbows)

Predator (Autocannon, two Lascannons)

Heldrake (Baleflamer)

If I run up against anyone super uptight about 6 points over, either they can add something small or I can drop a single Tzaangor. I don't really expect to, though.

6 points is high enough that you should expect people to call you out on it. It's, well it's basically a Tzaangor.

I don't like the Predator. They are too fragile for how many points they are. (Unless they dropped like 40 points or so). I'd prefer a Mutalith, mostly cause I think they are cool, or a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend.

[Brookshw]

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch, against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins)

Okay, watched it.

He is doing something. Not dying. 'Not dying' counts as 'doing something' because it's ITC.

Sure, but if you're looking for the best ROI, Not dying while contributing directly at the same times seems the preferable option, no? So, was there another alternative that would have been cheaper and "not died" by virtue of being 9 or less wounds character? Sure. Do those options have the same toughness and number of wounds? No.

Being an untargetable model, I can't see how he'd be a distraction.

Looks like that's exactly what he did for most of the game. Charged down one side, made his opponent pull back. Eventually used him and the gaunts to punch through the lines and then go punch the wyvern, and tied up a lot of attention for the nearby defenders in the process. So he was used (in this game at least) to apply pressure and distraction. Defenders couldn't ignore him or he'd get to their back line and had to deal with him instead of going after the objective the neurothrope was on. Didn't pay attention to the secondaries so not sure how that may have played a part.

A model that's immune to shooting attacks would be really good at holding an Objective.

Eh, very general statement. Applies just as much to a neurothrope as OOE.

Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does.

That's just daisy chaining, there's nothing special about that. The number of bodies on the table, that's what a normal person wouldn't do.

[Destro_Yersul]

6 points is high enough that you should expect people to call you out on it. It's, well it's basically a Tzaangor.

I don't like the Predator. They are too fragile for how many points they are. (Unless they dropped like 40 points or so). I'd prefer a Mutalith, mostly cause I think they are cool, or a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend.

Yeah, but it's just games with friends, and like I said dropping a single Tzaangor is an easy fix.

The predator I admit to not being super sold on. I do really like the Forgefiend mini, so I could certainly replace it with one of those, This also solves the points, since a Forgefiend with triple Ectoplasma cannons is still only 160. Gives me room for 2 extra Tzaangors to come in at exactly 2000. However, I don't yet have a Forgefiend, so that'll have to wait for a bit.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but if you're looking for the best ROI, Not dying while contributing directly at the same times seems the preferable option, no?

You can't use a Hive Tyrant, Tervigon or Swarmlord. They just die immediately.
That leaves a Broodlord - he already had two.
Tyranid Prime? ...Well, guy used to run 9 Warriors and a Prime. He took 'em out.

Do those options have the same toughness and number of wounds? No.

The only other option is the Neurothrope.

Looks like that's exactly what he did for most of the game. Charged down one side, made his opponent pull back.

Because if his opponent didn't do that, he would've lost the game even faster?
How is that a distraction?

Eventually used him and the gaunts to punch through the lines and then go punch the wyvern, and tied up a lot of attention for the nearby defenders in the process.

Can't find the distraction.

Defenders couldn't ignore him or he'd get to their back line and had to deal with him instead of going after the objective the neurothrope was on.

So basically he applied massive tactical advantage that if the opponent didn't deal with him, he would've lost the game even faster?
Once again, don't quite see where there was ever a point - except in the first turn - where I would've classed O1E as a 'distraction' from more important things.
O1E was the important thing, precisely because he could never be targeted.

The only other option in the entire Codex that could've done what O1E did, was a Tyranid Prime...And the dude took that out since last major tournament...For O1E.

That's just daisy chaining, there's nothing special about that.

Except for tournament play, I've never seen a Tyranid player chain a unit from one end of the board to the other, to tie up a shooty unit using 4 models out of a ~30 model unit.
Except for tournament play, I've never seen anyone wrap models. Wrapping models just isn't something that normal people do.

There is something special about what he did. That's why he went undefeated for 8 rounds. That's why the #1 player-in-Australia's only loss was to him.


In any case, I hope you enjoyed two Australians wearing singlets (because they're literally in a shed, in ~30 degree heat), with vulgarity and swearing, because they're not FLG. I know they tried to keep the vulgarity down. But...They're Australian - even our own MPs swear at each other while in Parliament.

[Brookshw]

That leaves a Broodlord - he already had two.

No he didn't, he had 1, a Neuro, and a Malanthrope. Or were you counting the Patriarch?

Because if his opponent didn't do that, he would've lost the game even faster?
How is that a distraction?

We're they really forced to deal with him though? They had the bodies to deny him the objective if they wanted to stay stationary or park the wyvern on it. Alternatively, just walk around him to go after the Neuro and force the opponent to decide whether to fall back or to defend it or keep pushing forward. (Not necessarily the easiest thing with the body count). Considering that a sole melee carnifex isn't actually all that killy (5 models/turn) the threat isn't really that much. That's why he's a distraction, threat perception exceeds actual danger and blinds you to opportunities. If you don't consider that a distraction then I guess we're just going to be in disagreement on that one.

The only other option in the entire Codex that could've done what O1E did, was a Tyranid Prime...And the dude took that out since last major tournament...For O1E.

Sure, and I'm trying to figure out why he valued OOE so much compared to the alternatives. But again, results speak for themselves. At any rate I'll consider throwing OOE into a few games and re-evaluating. In my experience to date, he's okay but not something I'm going to write home about.

Except for tournament play, I've never seen a Tyranid player chain a unit from one end of the board to the other, to tie up a shooty unit using 4 models out of a ~30 model unit.
Except for tournament play, I've never seen anyone wrap models. Wrapping models just isn't something that normal people do.

Well, if you say you've never seen it then I believe you've never seen it.

In any case, I hope you enjoyed two Australians wearing singlets (because they're literally in a shed, in ~30 degree heat), with vulgarity and swearing, because they're not FLG. I know they tried to keep the vulgarity down. But...They're Australian - even our own MPs swear at each other while in Parliament.

That was pretty good, yeah.

[Requizen]

Its like the NOVA Open rules being available oficially for free didnt register with as many people as I though. Also, there is already a corridors & doors expansion, its called Rogue Trader, which comes with actual minis. Finally, there are a ton of Zone Mortalis terrain sets floating out there, which are exactly that.

Spoiler: Case in point:

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From our Kill Team league: https://www.facebook.com/events/331005750820862/

Rogue Trader doesn't have a competitive ruleset and the boards clearly aren't designed for a balanced game. Zone Mortalis boards are awesome, I agree... but they also cost a lot even for this hobby and, depending on how nice you want it, can take up a lot of space and be a pain to haul around. I'm more than ok shelling out a bit for a ruleset designed for pick-up-and-play competition that has boards/terrain that are nice to look at while also being easy to take from A to B.

Of course, I'd like it to be cheaper, but again I'm just saying that I understand why they decided the pricepoint even if it is higher than what I was expecting.

[Cheesegear]

No he didn't, he had 1, a Neuro, and a Malanthrope. Or were you counting the Patriarch?

Broodlords and Patriarchs. Same thing.

We're they really forced to deal with him though? They had the bodies to deny him the objective if they wanted to stay stationary or park the wyvern on it.

Except that the opponent did park the Wyvern on an Objective.

Sure, and I'm trying to figure out why he valued OOE so much compared to the alternatives.

I genuinely don't think O1E is valued that highly. But, you watched the game. Let's go through this again.

1. Broodlords. Yep. Dude had two. They did fine.
2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it.
3. More Neurothropes. Why? For Synapse? You saw how the dude played. That's how most tournament Tyranids play. How much Synapse do you really need? ...Not much. Especially if you're running a Malanthrope.
4. ...That leaves Warrior Primes. Honestly, what's the point?

The problem is that you seem to think that O1E is good. He's not.
What he is...Is one of the best out of a bunch of bad choices. Tyranids don't really have good HQs, so being the one of the better ones isn't a high bar to clear.

Your only defence is "Why not take another Neurothrope?" ...Because you don't need to. You don't need more than the minimum Synapse. You don't need more than a few Psychic Powers, once you cast the two Powers that matter, your Psychic phase is over. You're not Thousand Sons. What you do need, is something that hits slightly harder than Termagants - but you can't use Toxicrenes or Carnifexes, because they can be targeted down. Me, personally? I'd go with a third Broodlord. However, I also see the value in not being lucky-Oathbreaker'd on Turn 1 in a bad match-up.

If you've got a Character with 7-9 Wounds in your book...Take them. O1E is one those Characters. Especially in ITC. This is where Kill 1/Kill More comes into play. This is why Venom spam isn't that popular in ITC. Sure, it can work. But in a bad match up, those Venoms are a whole bunch of free kills. Again, 'not dying' is 'doing something'...In the ITC. It doesn't matter than Termagants are only T3 and total garbage. There's 30 of them, and they're Fearless. If you want the Kill Point, you have to unload 30 failed saves into them.

This is why the ITC slouches towards horde armies. Killing stuff is the easiest way to earn points (they bring this up several times in the 'cast, often with negative connotations). Hordes - especially Fearless hordes - aren't easy to kill, thus, denying your opponent Kills, denying your opponent potential points. Not dying, is, doing something. If it was an Eternal War or Maelstrom tournament? You'd get different army archetypes. The other option is to spam MSU. Your opponent can kill one, three or six more units than you do...Doesn't matter - 'Kill more' is still only worth 1 Point, regardless of how hard you smash that button.

But, back to O1E. He doesn't hit the hardest. But he's almost impossible to kill unless you let him die.

Contrast this to an actual useless unit - the Rippers. Guy literally didn't even know what to do with them, so he just stuck them in the corners of the board. Where they stayed for the whole game.

That said, the vs. Deathwatch game was a bad game to showcase that, as the Deathwatch player had very little options with which to target Characters. The main reason I liked that game was it was because it ended up being the game where the eventual #1 and #2 of the tournament played. It also showcases really well how horde armies can literally run circles around their opponents and what exactly it is, that makes horde armies so strong.

Well, if you say you've never seen it then I believe you've never seen it.

It's just that in casual games, wrapping and screening units out of the game is pretty Bad Form, and unFun to play against. So most people don't do it.

That was pretty good, yeah.

Some people don't like it.

[Brookshw]

Broodlords and Patriarchs. Same thing.

Fair enough.

Except that the opponent did park the Wyvern on an Objective.

And then ran it away until OOE chased it down and punched.

My comments in blue.

I genuinely don't think O1E is valued that highly. But, you watched the game. Let's go through this again.

1. Broodlords. Yep. Dude had two. They did fine. - Agreed!
2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it. - Why do you keep bringing these up? No one's said they're good.
3. More Neurothropes. Why? For Synapse? You saw how the dude played. That's how most tournament Tyranids play. How much Synapse do you really need? ...Not much. Especially if you're running a Malanthrope.Also because they're the cheapest HQ and would free up about ~130 pts while actually doing something.
4. ...That leaves Warrior Primes. Honestly, what's the point? - No idea, removing one makes perfect sense to me

The problem is that you seem to think that O1E is good. He's not.

I....what? Where the heck did you get that? Are we fundamentally not having the same conversation? He's a point sink when there are cheaper HQ options available that would both be able to do things and free up points for additional units.

Your only defence is "Why not take another Neurothrope?"

Except that's not it. Yes, more synapse is good because synapse can be killed so redundancy is good, especially against armies that are more adept at sniping. BUT, and this maybe the critical bit we're disconnecting on, freeing up the points to invest in something that will grant a better ROI is very much a worthwhile endeavor. In the other page my example wasn't "take a Neurothrope, it was "take a Neurothrope and biovore" (techincally 2 biovores)

Me, personally? I'd go with a third Broodlord. However, I also see the value in not being lucky-Oathbreaker'd on Turn 1 in a bad match-up.

Sure, no argument here, Broodlords are good and came down in points.

But, back to O1E. He doesn't hit the hardest. But he's almost impossible to kill unless you let him die.

Okay, so to avoid giving up secondaries. That's the crux of your position? If so, okay, I get ya and it makes more sense.

[9mm]

2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it.

I play Guard and have been saying Pask sucks since the codex dropped.

[LansXero]

Rogue Trader doesn't have a competitive ruleset and the boards clearly aren't designed for a balanced game. Zone Mortalis boards are awesome, I agree... but they also cost a lot even for this hobby and, depending on how nice you want it, can take up a lot of space and be a pain to haul around. I'm more than ok shelling out a bit for a ruleset designed for pick-up-and-play competition that has boards/terrain that are nice to look at while also being easy to take from A to B.

Of course, I'd like it to be cheaper, but again I'm just saying that I understand why they decided the pricepoint even if it is higher than what I was expecting.

So, Necromunda?

Spoiler: Doors and Corridors, easy to take from A to B

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Also, I think most people are OK shelling nothing at all for a ruleset designed for tournaments, that was already live tested and that makes many of the changes of the previous versions (no verticalness, no scouting phase):
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/w...CompetPlay.pdf

Arena feels redundant and poorly thought out at the price they are asking for it. Oh, and just to double down on 'doors and corridors' with a 'tileset built with competitive play in mind' for cheaper, there are things like terrain crate:

Spoiler: terrain crate

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and heroclix maps, which are made with 1 vs 1 and tournament play in mind, while also being aproximately the right size for kill team:

Spoiler

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GW are good at certain things and for those things it makes sense to pay their premium prices. Tilesets and 'doors and corridors' are not amongst those things.

[Cheesegear]

I....what? Where the heck did you get that? Are we fundamentally not having the same conversation?

He's clearly a much, much better player than I am with an even greater understanding of the ITC format than I have. He wouldn't make **** army construction lists by mistake. Thanks to the magic of the internet, and a centralised tournament structure, I also know what other lists he would've been up against. Then, even better, unlike other tournaments where I have to guess why they succeeded, there's footage of him playing against the eventual #2 ranked player. So I can also guess that he played similarly against other players. However, since we saw his Deployment, we know that he leaves multiple gaps in his 'Gant Carpet and places his Characters last, based on his opponent. We know that 'horse shoes' are things he does all the time for board control until Turn 2-3. We know that he knows how to not only screen his own units, but he also knows how to wrap his opponents' units without losing Synapse.

Overall, we know he's legit.
(The only thing we can't infer from the footage, is what he does when his opponent can target Characters).

So to answer your question, I don't think we are having the same conversation.

Taking O1E was a choice he made.
It's not a question of why didn't he take anything else.
Since we know he's not a bad player; It's a question of why did he take O1E?

1. What are his other choices? What does O1E do, that they don't do? Considering the rest of his list...Where does O1E fit in?
2. What are the WinCons (i.e; How does ITC work)? How does that play into Question 1?
3. Footage.

There's only one acceptable reason to take a model that you don't actually want to; You don't have any other models to choose from.
Unfortunately, this is a major tournament, and no-one on the top tables is taking models they don't want to because they can't afford new ones.

[Forum Explorer]

He's clearly a much, much better player than I am with an even greater understanding of the ITC format than I have. He wouldn't make **** army construction lists by mistake. Thanks to the magic of the internet, and a centralised tournament structure, I also know what other lists he would've been up against. Then, even better, unlike other tournaments where I have to guess why they succeeded, there's footage of him playing against the eventual #2 ranked player. So I can also guess that he played similarly against other players. However, since we saw his Deployment, we know that he leaves multiple gaps in his 'Gant Carpet and places his Characters last, based on his opponent. We know that 'horse shoes' are things he does all the time for board control until Turn 2-3. We know that he knows how to not only screen his own units, but he also knows how to wrap his opponents' units without losing Synapse.

Overall, we know he's legit.
(The only thing we can't infer from the footage, is what he does when his opponent can target Characters).

So to answer your question, I don't think we are having the same conversation.

Taking O1E was a choice he made.
It's not a question of why didn't he take anything else.
Since we know he's not a bad player; It's a question of why did he take O1E?

1. What are his other choices? What does O1E do, that they don't do? Considering the rest of his list...Where does O1E fit in?
2. What are the WinCons (i.e; How does ITC work)? How does that play into Question 1?
3. Footage.

There's only one acceptable reason to take a model that you don't actually want to; You don't have any other models to choose from.
Unfortunately, this is a major tournament, and no-one on the top tables is taking models they don't want to because they can't afford new ones.

O1E can kill a Knight when he charges. Maybe that's why he took him. As some anti-Knight firepower. It's not like he has any other source of anti-Knight in his list.

[Wardog]

He's the Archangel Michael, to Horus' Lucifer. I know that image anywhere.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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...But, that said. Doesn't make it a good model, though.

That second Lucifer just looks bored.

[Brookshw]

O1E can kill a Knight when he charges. Maybe that's why he took him. As some anti-Knight firepower. It's not like he has any other source of anti-Knight in his list.

Could be. One of my original guesses was anti-tank. In the video he never went to engage the knight w/ OOE though.

[Cheesegear]

Could be. One of my original guesses was anti-tank. In the video he never went to engage the knight w/ OOE though.

My guess is that's because it wasn't a Gallant. It was a hard-shooty Knight, in which case all's you've got to do is surround your Characters with a ton of 'Gants, and since it wasn't a Character, it couldn't Heroically Intervene into combat, and Fall Back in his next turn. He would have to Charge in his turn, and allow his opponent to Fall Back into a wrap pattern and the whole thing starts over. So all's you have to do is wrap and/or screen it, and it's out of the game...Which is exactly what happened.

Had it been a Gallant, it would've done a first turn Charge against the horse shoe Gants. 'Gants would've Fallen Back, '6s wound anything time!' unloaded a ****-ton of dice, and then O1E would've Charged.

Like I said, O1E would've been a counter-Turn 1 model.

[The Robot Goat]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

The models aren't painted in Cadian or Catachan colors, they're all painted in orange prison jumpsuits, if that changes anything. I obviously want to save money, but I don't want to pull a fast one on whoever I play against. This is outside of tournament play, for the record.

[JNAProductions]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

The models aren't painted in Cadian or Catachan colors, they're all painted in orange prison jumpsuits, if that changes anything. I obviously want to save money, but I don't want to pull a fast one on whoever I play against. This is outside of tournament play, for the record.

If you say "These Cadian models are using Catachan rules, and these other, identically painted Cadian models are Vostroyans," you're a jerk.

If you say "All my guardsmen are Catachan," then I do not care, and likely your opponents won't either.

[Cheesegear]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

In most tournament formats, different Detachments must be easily differentiated. However you choose to do that, is up to you. And what constitutes as 'easily' apparently varies from player to player and TO to TO. In a casual setting, while that rule wouldn't be enforced, it would still be polite.
...Some tournaments go a step further, and say that units with 20 or more models must also be identifiably different.

So, you could say...
These green Cadians, are Catachans. But the orange Cadians, are Cadians. Same models. Different colours. Exactly the same way that Space Marine players would do it to represent different Chapters.

However, other players just paint the shoulder rims. The grey rims are Blood Angels, because the 8th/Grey Company is the Assault Company. The red rims are Blood Angels, because red = Blood Angels. This is important 'cause the only way you can win best painted is by having a cohesive looking army, and having an army with 3 major different colour schemes across multiple Detachments might be 100% fluff compliant, but it doesn't look good.

However,
These green Cadians, are Catachans, and these other green Cadians, are Cadians... What?

If you say...
Everything I own is Catachans. Doesn't matter what it looks like. Doesn't matter how it's painted. It's all Catachans.
There can't be any confusion, because it's all the same.

[The Robot Goat]

Thanks for the replies, I'll probably go ahead with the Start Collecting, seeing as they're all going to be painted the same and my whole army uses the Catachan rules.

[LansXero]

GW of the past: "Agents of Vect is too toxic, specially in the drukhari codex. We feel 4CP would make its use more infrequent and thus only for clutch plays and special cases"

GW of the now: "Lets give GSC Agents of Vect. 3 CP is fine, because they also have a model with the Culexus Assassin abiity, so it will be even more OP. We have to sell all these tooth & claw overstocks somehow, we'll just FAQ it later"

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, you know what GW's lead times are. Of course they're going to have to FAQ it. Or they could FAQ it as soon as its released like the Space Wolves and - oh no, everyone complained their asses off about that too.

I think the cult stuff looks cool! Getting down to a 7" charge from reserve is pretty nasty for a big squad of purestrains, but so is making them 4++ save, and getting everything a better save against low-rend. I might go with Rusted Cog for the paint scheme and bonus save, but Four-Armed-Emperor looks like the one to beat.

[LansXero]

I mean, you know what GW's lead times are. Of course they're going to have to FAQ it. Or they could FAQ it as soon as its released like the Space Wolves and - oh no, everyone complained their asses off about that too.

I've seen novels go from "final draft" to "on shelves now!" faster than the assumed lead time from GW. But even at 4 CPs, why would you give a codex that already makes strats more expensive agents of vect?