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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Only if they break Cults - which they almost definitely wont.
    If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded.


    No-one runs GSC for Psychic Powers.
    As memory serves Magus were the number 1 HQ choice in 2018 LVO for GSC despite cheaper alternatives, and I seem to recall someone from FLG specifically bringing them for a Magus (maybe I'm thinking of SoCal). Mind Control is good, especially if you hit a knight or big shooty thing with it.



    Good.
    Purestrains should be Ambushing. Not riding around in Chimeras.
    Rules be damned I thought it was funny.


    What should they be, then? 6?
    If Cultists are 5, with Tide of Traitors being a thing, how much is a Guardsman that can Ambush?
    (1) One dumb decision doesn't erase another, it just means you have 2 dumb decisions. See also: whataboutism. (2) They aren't guardsmen, e.g., no orders, unlike faction traits, application of faction traits to available units are vastly different.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31 View Post
    I've bought stuff from Anvil and it's great, used their shotgun kit for my IG vets and their heads/torso/equipment ranges are very useful, but it's not that cheap. You'd need 4 gun sets to convert the 20 cultists, puting you behinde another 12 pounds, it's basically 60% the way to another cultist box.
    You could theoretically get away with 3 sets by coming up with extra bitz from somewhere to make up the two. That puts it at 29 pounds, which is more or less on par with Kairic Acolytes. In any case, it's probably one of the cheaper options if you want to give them all guns.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded.
    Fabius Bile doesn't break <Legion>.
    Anrakyr doesn't break <Dynasty>.
    Celestine doesn't break <Order>.
    MTs don't break <Regiment>.
    Be'lakor explicitly does break <Allegiance>. Except who cares? Loci bonuses aren't even good.

    If Genetstealers don't break <Cult>, then who cares if they don't have it? If anything, Purestrains aren't part of a Cult, they're part of a Hive Fleet. They shouldn't have the Cult Keyword.
    Now that I've thought about it, I agree.

    As memory serves Magus were the number 1 HQ choice in 2018 LVO for GSC despite cheaper alternatives
    Yeah. Deny the Witch is pretty useful in all armies.

    Mind Control is good, especially if you hit a knight or big shooty thing with it.
    Will that be in the Codex, then? If it is, then there's no problem.

    (1) One dumb decision doesn't erase another, it just means you have 2 dumb decisions. See also: whataboutism.
    That's irrelavent, and doesn't answer my question.
    How many points should they be?

    (2) They aren't guardsmen, e.g., no orders, unlike faction traits, application of faction traits to available units are vastly different.
    Infantry Squads don't have Orders. <Officers>, do. Orders have nothing to do with Infantry Squads, and everything to do with Company Commanders. Can you have Infantry Squads without <Officers>? ...Yes. If anything, it should be <Officers> that cost more (and they absolutely should), not regular Infantry or Heavy Weapon Teams (however HWTs should cost more for different reasons). Should Bullgryns cost more because Priests give +1 Attack? Or should Priests just cost more in the first place?
    Should Hellblasters cost more because Captains hand out re-roll 1s to hit? Re-rolling 1s to hit has nothing to do with Hellblasters.

    Everyone gets Faction Traits. If GW started including Faction Traits into points costs, everything would go wrong. We've already seen Craftworlds players cry because why did non-Ynnari Dark Reapers go up in points? You can't apply Strike From the Shadows across the board because it affects units differently, and, as yet, we haven't seen "If a Vanguard Veteran squad has the <Raven Guard> Keyword, increase by 5ppm."

    If a Blood Angels Captain doesn't have <Death Company>, should his points cost still be raised?

    "If an Infantry Squad has the <Catachan> Keyword, increase its cost to 5ppm."
    "If a <Leman Russ> has the <Cadia> Keyword, increase its cost..."

    Just...No.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-04 at 12:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    For those who use Battlescribe to plan army lists, how do you report flawed battlescribe army data? Im trying to use it to build a tyranids list, and its data doesnt match up with what my codex says is possible. Its trying to tell me I can only have one Monsterous Bio Cannon on my Hive Tyrant, when my codex clearly says I can have 2. I checked the Errata, and it says nothing about the hive tyrant, so unless it was in a Chapter Approved, which I dont think changes Weapon Options in its updates, this is Battlescribe giving false data.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    Its trying to tell me I can only have one Monsterous Bio Cannon on my Hive Tyrant, when my codex clearly says I can have 2.
    Are you talking about Stranglethorn Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons?
    Take a closer look at Page 83. It has nothing to do with the Hive Tyrant's rules. Looking at the Hive Tyrant's datasheet wont explain why you can't have 2 Cannons.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-03 at 11:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again. And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote. Well, at least it was the one from a Start Collecting box, so I sort of got it for free? But yeah, thats a waste of a model right there, cause I overlooked a footnote, and now am down a giant expensive model. I have had horrible luck trying to remove already glued parts, as when I tried to remove rending claws from my warriors. So I guess that model is basically garbage until they add that option.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again.
    No worries. Happens to us all.

    And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded..
    Ooh, can you link these please?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    I mean, a Hive Tyrant is large enough you could probably have a bit more luck with the scalpel... But yeah that suuuuucks.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    After a disastrous loss last Saturday, I'm realizing that my Primaris battalion needs some fast-moving beatsticks to apply pressure where my "gunline" can't. A supreme command of Custodes jetbike captains is still good, right? Is there anything else that does the same thing better or for less points (and the same $ price )?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatgrinder View Post
    After a disastrous loss last Saturday, I'm realizing that my Primaris battalion needs some fast-moving beatsticks to apply pressure where my "gunline" can't. A supreme command of Custodes jetbike captains is still good, right? Is there anything else that does the same thing better or for less points (and the same $ price )?
    Blood Angels Captains.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Really, any captain with a jetpack/powerfist/storm shield combo works fine. It's just that blood angels deathcompany captains are the best at it right now.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Ooh, can you link these please?
    Codex review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FReFkWVy6Zw
    Batrep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmXshIdUANM

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Fabius Bile doesn't break <Legion>.
    If Genetstealers don't break <Cult>, then who cares if they don't have it? If anything, Purestrains aren't part of a Cult, they're part of a Hive Fleet. They shouldn't have the Cult Keyword.
    Now that I've thought about it, I agree.
    So you think they should have gotten a Hive Fleet adaptation instead?


    Will that be in the Codex, then? If it is, then there's no problem.
    Sure. And the new powers are still pretty "meh".

    That's irrelavent, and doesn't answer my question.
    How many points should they be?
    Don't bring up comparisons if you don't want me to reply to them
    Probably keep them at 4 points honestly.



    Infantry Squads don't have Orders. <Officers>, do. Orders have nothing to do with Infantry Squads, and everything to do with Company Commanders. snip
    Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in. Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely. AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now? It's not like a stratagem even, they're available as long as you have officers and use up non-finite resources. Arguing that guardsmen are just a stat block for comparison is ridiculous.

    So are orders the equivalent of ambush? Isn't that the real question? If you think ambush is more valuable than orders in general than orders then that's a reasonable stance and would justify a 1ppm increase. I wouldn't 't agree ambush is more valuable than orders, but I could respect that position. (yes, I'm ignoring unquestioning loyalty here).

    In regards to the other matter of points reflecting armies, this is the problem with allies and you know it. No one's suggesting a convoluted multivariable point calculation system to build your army. But if an army has some underpriced and some overpriced units, and is somehow prevented from spamming the underpriced, then it's a non-issue and it generally balances out. When you can cherry pick the underpriced units to use with allies and avoid the downsides of a particular army, then that does become an issue. Change the context and the problems start.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    So you think they should have gotten a Hive Fleet adaptation instead?
    I think that Purestrains, as they are, are already one of the most powerful units in the book.
    They don't need any more bonuses.

    I don't think that they should have Hive Fleet bonuses. But if GW says that they don't have Cult bonuses, I'm cool with that, too. Because Purestrains aren't part of the Cult.

    Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in.
    No. They aren't.

    Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely.
    Yes. And you can see that Synapse doesn't cause 'Gants and Gaunts to increase in price. You can see that neither <Kraken> or The Swarmlord causes Genestealers to increase in price.

    AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now?
    No they aren't. Officers are designed to use Orders.

    But my point is, that Orders are not factored into their points cost. That's why they cost 4 Points, not 5, or even 6. The cost of the 'Orders' are factored into the model that gives them, not into the unit that receives them. Because how much is a unit of Guardsmen that doesn't get Ordered?

    Ambush is an ability that Neophytes have. Independent of a unit giving it to them. That's why they're an extra point.
    That's why Comissars increased in points, while Conscripts, didn't. Then also Conscripts went up, because 30-models are strong no matter what they're made out of.

    So are orders the equivalent of ambush?
    GW has decided that a Company Commander is 30 Points*, and gives two Orders per turn. So, 15 Points an Order. So, a Guard squad, that 'includes Orders' is worth 55 Points. Squads don't have Orders, unless someone gives them one. You have to take a seperate model, that costs more points - that's the points cost. This is why Dark Angels are better than normal Marines. They just get re-roll 1s without having to spend ~80 Points for a Captain. Re-rolling 1s isn't a native ability that Space Marines have. It's given to them, for the cost of ~80 Points, or roughly 25 Points per unit. It's not cheap. Hence, Dark Angels are good. Those ~80 Points aren't spent on something else to compensate...Dark Angel models aren't all 1 or 2 points higher that their counterparts...It's straight up, 80 free'd up points you can spend on something else.

    However, points and Orders being zero-sum, it's entirely possible that you'll have a number of Guard units - especially in a Brigade, or a Battalion where the 'other' HQ is a Psyker - not receiving Orders, because there aren't that many to go 'round. Are Guard units not receiving Orders still worth more points? ...No.

    Ambush, costs an extra point per model. So, 15 Points translates into 3 extra models per unit. But, you have Ambush all the time. Whether you choose to use it is up to you. But you always have that choice available to you.

    Meanwhile if there's 3 Squads to a Company Commander, one of those units is just going to look at their Commander like a bunch of stunned mullets, unless there's an investiture of more resources. Again, Guard have to pay extra points for Orders. They don't just get them. If one of your Guard HQs is a Primaris Psyker for Deny the Witch (really common), you have less Orders. That is, you're not paying for Orders you don't have. That is, forcing models to pay for Orders you can't give them, would be extremely stupid.**

    Orders are not inherent to Guard units. Orders are inherant to <Officers> only. That's why Officers cost points. If Orders were free, then everyone would be running around with Primaris Psykers as their HQs. Orders are not free - you must take Officers. Other units abilities (e.g; Voice of Command) are not factored into a different, separate unit's points cost. That's why the other unit costs more or less points (again; for an in-Codex example, look at Comissars and Conscripts).***

    This is why Guard units don't pay for Orders, whilst Neophytes do have to pay for Ambush - they just get it.

    What if you don't want to use Ambush? Then sure, get mad that you have to pay for ability you're not even using. That's fine. But, fact is, even if you don't use Chaos Cultists with Tide of Traitors, or Veterans of the Long War, or even Cacophony...With Abaddon. With Ignore Wounds (5+). With 30-model units. Cultists are still going to be 5 Points whether you use their abilities or not.
    GW didn't so much as 'nerf Cultists', as they did force everyone who was using Cultists wrong, to use them right, or pay extra points for no reason...So you may as well use Ambush all the time - you're paying for it, after all.

    If you still don't agree with anything I've said...Then Guard are just broken. While that's not untrue per se. I think Orders is the wrong hill to die on.
    Other than that, I hope you're writing to GW about how you feel, because I can't help you beyond this point.


    * Remember, Company Commanders are a known issue within the game. 30 Points is too cheap for what they do (then again, rules sell models and GW is totally on board with Guard models in every Imperium army - they said so themselves). On the other hand, Infantry Squads are not a problem, and they can stay fine as-is at 4 Points a model. Company Commanders are the problem - not the units. Similarly, Heavy Weapon Squads do just fine without a babysitter - they need a points increase, but not because they can take Orders.
    ** See non-Ynnari Dark Reapers getting nerfed for no reason and how mad that made everyone.
    *** See Razorbacks and Stormravens, and Guilliman get nerfed, and how mad that made everyone. Coinciding with the above, Razorbacks and Stormravens are still nerfed, even if Guilliman isn't in the army.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-04 at 12:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Didn't Tzaangors originally come with Chainswords and Pistols in a regular box? Like, before Tzeentch hit for AoS and when they first came out alongside Magnus and 1k Sons, wasn't there a 40k box for them? I see the upgrade pack online and I feel like I'm remembering something from an alternate timeline.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    I remember that, but I think it was just the standard box with a few upgrades in.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Didn't Tzaangors originally come with Chainswords and Pistols in a regular box? Like, before Tzeentch hit for AoS and when they first came out alongside Magnus and 1k Sons, wasn't there a 40k box for them? I see the upgrade pack online and I feel like I'm remembering something from an alternate timeline.
    They still do. I bought two boxes a month or so ago and there's a small sprue of chainsword and pistol options in the box.

    Maybe my store just had the old box, 'cause the ones I bought were the white AoS boxes, but since you'd have to be a bit tilted in the head to give 'em guns for pretty much any Thousand Sons force I can think of, it really didn't matter which one I grabbed, so the extra sprue was just a happy coincidence.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    My experience with most arm connections, particulary in Tyranids, is that if you are willing to sacrifice the arm being removed, you can pull them off and leave the base figure in good shape.

    On a slightly related note, I am currently working on a 20-man acolyte GSC hand flamer squad for deep-strike/ambush schenanigans. Average of 80 hits, average of 13 wounds ( vs Toughness 6 or more). Plan is to run them as a big old distraction carnifex, and for lols.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    I think my issue with removing Tyranid arms is that the socket joint is filled with dried glue, and I really dont want to use super glue. Plastic glue ends up being worthless with that as a base, so the new part will refuse to stick. It being a socket joint means the knife cant at all get in there to remove it. Other lines with the flat contact point means I can easily scrape the old glue off.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Think I'm going to pick up a couple Kill Teams this week. Very excited for Arena! Looking at some Tyranids (actually have some Hormagaunts) and either Marines or AdMech, but all I have right now is my Necrons, here's my current roster:

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    Deathmark (Leader) - 15
    Deathmark (Sniper) - 15
    Deathmark (Comms) - 15
    Deathmark - 15
    Flayed One (Leader) - 10
    Flayed One (Combat) - 10
    Flayed One (Zealot) - 10
    Flayed One (Veteran) - 10
    Flayed One - 10
    Flayed One - 10
    Flayed One - 10
    Immortal (Leader, Gauss) - 16
    Immortal (Comms, Tesla) - 16
    Immortal (Veteran, Gauss) - 16
    Immortal (Gauss) - 16
    Immortal (Gauss) - 16
    Immortal (Tesla) - 16
    Warrior - 12
    Warrior - 12
    Warrior - 12


    I did see that the Blackstone Fortress models got rules for Kill Team. Most of the units look pretty terrible (the Legionaries in particular are just... CSM with basic stuff), but there's some reasonable stuff there. Flamers on cheap bodies are of course, always good, especially with Arena's small hallways. Rogue Psykers are great because MWs are great. Negavolts and Beastmen aren't great but I can see uses for them. A roster just based on what models are in the box:

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    Rogue Psyker (Leader) - 20
    Rogue Psyker - 20
    Traitor Sergeant (Leader) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman Gunner (Scout, Flamer) - 8
    Traitor Guardsman Gunner (Flamer) - 8
    Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Zealot, Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Combat, Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
    Traitor Guardsman (Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
    Negavolt Cultist (Combat) - 9
    Negavolt Cultist (Zealot) - 9
    Negavolt Cultist - 9
    Negavolt Cultist - 9
    Chaos Beastman (Zealot) - 7
    Chaos Beastman - 7
    Chaos Beastman - 7
    Chaos Beastman - 7


    Leader Psyker, two Flamers, and two (specialist) Cultists comes out to 54, which I would imagine would be the general core, and then decide what to bring from there. It's not great, but I think there's enough ok stuff there to get a game or two in to try something different.
    Last edited by Requizen; 2019-02-04 at 05:57 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    I think my issue with removing Tyranid arms is that the socket joint is filled with dried glue, and I really dont want to use super glue. Plastic glue ends up being worthless with that as a base, so the new part will refuse to stick. It being a socket joint means the knife cant at all get in there to remove it. Other lines with the flat contact point means I can easily scrape the old glue off.
    Are you adverse to magnetizing? If not, toss a tiny ball of green stuff in there and a magnet (I'd say 4mm, but 3 might be okay), you wont need to worry about the glue (in fact, put more glue to help hold the magnet in place. Trim the ball joint flat at an angle reflective of the magnet, attach magnet to remainder of ball joint. The loss of width on the ball will prevent the joint sticking out awkwardly. Attach magnet to limb (check polarity, in fact, try to keep polarity the same across all bugs you magnetize). Use some more green stuff around the side of the ball joint magnet to help keep in place (and glue).

    Or lightly drill the joint hole and use green stuff as gap filler (careful limbs are supported while it dries so you don't get weird sagging issues)

    Or simple green or some other product that can deal with super glue.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Going to miss the dice from the OP kit. Of all the things to keep, why keep the objective markers? literally nobody uses those, while you can never have too many dice.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again. And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote. Well, at least it was the one from a Start Collecting box, so I sort of got it for free? But yeah, thats a waste of a model right there, cause I overlooked a footnote, and now am down a giant expensive model. I have had horrible luck trying to remove already glued parts, as when I tried to remove rending claws from my warriors. So I guess that model is basically garbage until they add that option.
    What sort of glue did you use? Many types have a debonding agent that you could, with patience, work into the joint to release the arms without damage to either part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Are you adverse to magnetizing? If not, toss a tiny ball of green stuff in there and a magnet (I'd say 4mm, but 3 might be okay), you wont need to worry about the glue (in fact, put more glue to help hold the magnet in place. Trim the ball joint flat at an angle reflective of the magnet, attach magnet to remainder of ball joint. The loss of width on the ball will prevent the joint sticking out awkwardly. Attach magnet to limb (check polarity, in fact, try to keep polarity the same across all bugs you magnetize). Use some more green stuff around the side of the ball joint magnet to help keep in place (and glue).

    Or lightly drill the joint hole and use green stuff as gap filler (careful limbs are supported while it dries so you don't get weird sagging issues)

    Or simple green or some other product that can deal with super glue.
    An added benefit of magnetizing is that you can reconfigure your Tyrant between games, as long as you've similarly magnetized and painted other arm options. I've only done this with tanks in 3e (when I last played), but it's wildly useful if your table assumes WYSIWYG.

    MY OWN QUESTION:
    What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

    Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?
    Last edited by Occasional Sage; 2019-02-05 at 03:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Occasional Sage View Post
    MY OWN QUESTION:
    What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

    Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?
    I tend to use points per dead marine or guardsman, and then points per wound dealt to tank and knights.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in. Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely. AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now? It's not like a stratagem even, they're available as long as you have officers and use up non-finite resources. Arguing that guardsmen are just a stat block for comparison is ridiculous.
    Tyranids is a bad example, because they used to pay through the nose for Synapse. Like, their only good HQ choice was the Hive Tyrant because the Broodlord, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime were all a ridiculous amount of points. Then the Neurothrope dropped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ** See non-Ynnari Dark Reapers getting nerfed for no reason and how mad that made everyone.
    Normal Dark Reapers were nerf worthy as well. They are a pretty insanely good unit being able to target pretty much any kind of unit.

    Ynnari just need a massive nerf of their own. My favorite is actually making them a proper unit, so their units are designed to work with Soulburst, and are thus balanced appropriately. But failing that, I'd deny them all Aspect Warrior squads.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Occasional Sage View Post
    MY OWN QUESTION:
    What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

    Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?
    The usual way is to look at common stalines you'll face. Marine EQuivalent is T4 3+, Guard EQuivalent is T3 5+, most main battle tanks and monsters are T7 3+ with stuff like IK and Russes at T8 3+. These are pretty common targets and 8th means that the math-hammer is easier than ever since there's no difference between a T5 and T7 target against a Str 4 weapon.

    Take the same sort of calcs for hits per point you're already doing and apply another set for wounds and saves for each type of target.

    So, for a MEQ bolter vs a GEQ, it's 2 attacks * 4/6 to hit = 1.33 hits * 4/6 to wound = 0.89 wounds * 4/6 failed saves = 0.59 dead GEQ /13 points per MEQ bolter = 0.046 dead GEQ per point Generally speaking, most people perfer points per unsaved wound (so, divide number of points over wounds inflicted), as it's easier to visualise taking ~22 points of MEQ to kill a GEQ than it is to imagine one twentieth of a guardsman killed per point of marines.

    For a (BS3+) missile launcher vs a knight, it's 1 attack * 4/6 to hit = .67 * 3/6 to wound = .33 * 4/6 failed saves = .22 * 3.5 average damage = 0.78 damage. Then divide that by however many points your missile launcher model is OR, times the number of wounds by the number of missile launchers in a squad and then divide by the price of the entire squad if comparing unit to unit instead of comparing weapon vs weapon.

    Edit: Should probably mention, if you can use excel at even a basic level, this is actually pretty quick and easy to make lots of different comparisons, but sitting there with a calculator can make it rather tedious. Even then, it's not going to tell the whole story, 'cause range and movement profiles are a factor, as is enemy army composition, since it's no good being the king of anti-hoarde if your meta is full of treadheads.
    Last edited by Drasius; 2019-02-05 at 03:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Occasional Sage View Post
    MY OWN QUESTION:
    What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency?
    ...None? Take a look at everything in the meta (or your meta) and group everything into groups of things that need killing.

    but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).
    Column
    F = T3
    G = T4
    H = T5
    I = T6
    J = T7
    K = T8

    L = 6+
    M = 5+
    N = 4+
    O = 3+
    P = 2+

    Q-through-Y = 9 combinations of Toughness and Saves you feel you need to worry about in the meta*. Just worrying about GEq and MEq is dead. The game is so much bigger than two armies. You have to deal with Objective Secured Custode Jetbikes, now! Not to mention altering the formula whenever something commonly has -1 to hit (e.g; Venoms) or taking into account how D3 Damage weapons work against models with 2 Wounds (i.e; Frustratingly. You can use the Average of '2' Damage - because obviously - however in the real world that's not actually how it works, math-hammer isn't perfect), and how multi-Damage weapons don't do **** against 1-wound models. Also, some of the more problematic models in the game have Invulnerables or Ignore Wounds (Daemons, Knights, etc.). Once your have your string of columns with the formulas, you can just click and drag - don't forget your '$' marks. Then just copy-paste in your 'special' strings on the weapons that need it.

    =$C3/($D3*$E3*F3*M3)
    Where C3 = $B$1 + B3.

    Another option is to divide by points cost (that's C3, for me), and that will give you how many models you need of that type, in order to deal 1 Damage to your target.
    However I've found that to be less useful, and you can pretty much do it by eye anyway.
    If a Space Marine with a Boltgun is 58.8 Points per Damage, against opposing Marines (that's not good, BTW, see below)...It takes ~5 Marines to kill an opposing single Marine using Boltguns. Gross...
    That is, Boltguns are pretty bad...Unless you're killing T3 models, in which case you don't need be 13 Points a model to kill Guardsmen and Aeldari.

    Z = Basically the 'special' column that lets you know how to copy-paste. '1 Damage & MW on 6+ to wound' wont be the same formula as '1 Damage'.
    6+ to wound equals +1 Mortal Wound, isn't the same as 6+ to wound equals Mortal Wounds instead of normal damage, etc.
    ...Just...Mark your columns.

    * I picked 9 because that's the amount of columns needed to reach 'Z'. You could quite easily do less if your meta is really shallow (mine isn't). You could also do every combination of saves if you really felt like it. However I can't think of many T3 / 2+ Save models I need to worry about, especially after Celestine's been nerfed.

    Commonly, in the math-hammer community...
    <25 Points per Damage against your intended target, is good (however you should still take into account how it works against everything, because some weapons really are good against everything [S5/6, AP-2])
    26<55 Points per Damage is 'not hot garbage'
    200+ Points per Damage, it's time to pack up and go home.

    Many of your better Spreadsheet programs will offer colour gradient formatting. It's immensely helpful.

    (Also remembering that math-hammer in Age of Sigmar is basically playing the game on easy mode.)

    EDIT: Doing Math-hammer ad hoc is for chumps. Always use Spreadsheets to get a better picture... That said, that is my old government job talking.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-02-05 at 06:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yes. And you can see that Synapse doesn't cause 'Gants and Gaunts to increase in price.
    I can see Gaunts are reasonably differentiated and weaker than Guardsmen but priced the same.

    But, fact is, even if you don't use Chaos Cultists with Tide of Traitors, or Veterans of the Long War, or even Cacophony...With Abaddon. With Ignore Wounds (5+). With 30-model units. Cultists are still going to be 5 Points whether you use their abilities or not.
    You were doing so well right up to the point where you acknowledged that non-datasheet abilities & rules should impact the cost of models. The genestealers infiltrated your position, didn't they


    While that's not untrue per se. I think Orders is the wrong hill to die on.
    Other than that, I hope you're writing to GW about how you feel, because I can't help you beyond this point.
    Oh don't be so melodramatic. Someone asked for opinions on the new codex, I gave mine. You then disagreed with several points prompting a boring longer conversation
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Blood Angels Captains.
    True.

    I don't know if I have the CP to effectively use them, though. I've only got the one battalion, and I really only have enough models for 1000 points.

    Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatgrinder
    Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many?
    More than 3. Rule of threee after all.

    To play your friend opponent again at a later date, You are likely okay with just one.

    You can go one Captain and then do a BA Librarian Dread. At that points level they are almost interchangeable, and you will get less death threats.
    Last edited by Ornithologist; 2019-02-05 at 12:59 PM.
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