Sorcadin: Sentinel or War Caster?

[Xenthorn]

Hello all,

I am currently making a Paladin that I intend to dip Sorcerer at some point. I ran a human variant so I could pick up the Polearm Master perk to increase damage and the number of attacks of opportunity. The issue that I am having is what to do with my first ASI.

Now most of you who see this are probably thinking, "What? Why in earth would you choose War Caster over Sentinel for a Paladin?" The answer to that is it seems to me that Sentinel is redundant once you have both Polearm Master and War Caster, and War Caster seems to provide more benefits to Polearm Master than Sentinel does.

Sentinel
- When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
- Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
- When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.

War Caster
- You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
- You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
- When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature

So this brings me to my main issue. Once I dip Sorcerer, I can pick up the SCAG cantrips Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade. As such, with War Caster I can use Booming Blade on an attack of opportunity which will either stop the attacker or inflict a fair amount of damage if they choose to move. This can, in a sense, serve the same purpose as Sentinel's first ability, to a higher DPR degree. Second, my DM has never used the Disengage action with an enemy and I doubt he will any time soon. Our battles have a last man standing vibe. Third, being a tank, I'm skeptical of how often I will not be the target of choice for my DM on anyone who is 5 feet from me. Additionally, if I only receive one reaction a round, there will likely be some interference with Polearm Master.

War Caster, on the other hand, provides multiple benefits. First off, you gain proficiency on constitution saving throws as a first level Sorcerer. The advantage from War Caster on concentration checks from taking damage will all but negate the chances of dropping a buff spell. Second, I can perform somatic components of spells with a polearm in my hands. Third, I can cast a spell on an attack of opportunity, which can be either a nova spell, or the Booming Blade Cantrip, as discussed above, and with a 10 foot reach on attacks of opportunity.

I could theoretically take both feats, but I would have to take the hits to my ability scores. I am willing to do so, but it just appears to me that Sentinel is unnecessary. Sentinel also doesn't pair with War Caster at all, as the reaction round attacks caused by Sentinel do not count as attacks of opportunity and cannot be exchanged for a spell.

I have perused many guides on this and every one of them has said that Sentinel is a near mandatory feat to take as a Paladin, including most that reference Sorcadins. I agree that Sentinel is a very powerful feat, but it just appears to me that having both Polearm Master and War Caster fills in most of the needs Sentinel can. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

[HappyDaze]

Are you going to be using any (or many) Concentration spells? War Caster has a utility beyond just Booming Blade.

[Xenthorn]

We do have a cleric who will be providing buffs to the team, but I do intend to use many concentration limited spells to stack different buffs. My main point here is that it appears to me that Booming Blade with War Caster can, in a sense, fulfill the same role as sentinel, while also providing the other benefits. The concentration will go from hard to break to nearly unbreakable.

[HappyDaze]

So why overthink it? It sounds like you want to try out War Caster. Do it and see how it goes.

[Xenthorn]

I'm actually new to 5e and so the purpose of the post is I'm trying to optimize the character as much as possible. So I'm really just looking to hear people's thoughts on this and maybe hear some counter arguments.

[Aussiehams]

Just a couple of points:
1. You don't get Con save prof when you MC into Sorcerer.
2. You can do the somatic components of a spell with a 2 handed weapon by default, so you dont need warcaster for that.
3. The range of booming blade is only 5ft, so it doesn't work with the reach from your pole arm.

Warcaster probably isn't the best feat for your build. Maybe look at resilient Con or sentinel.

[Xenthorn]

Just a couple of points:
1. You don't get Con save prof when you MC into Sorcerer.
2. You can do the somatic components of a spell with a 2 handed weapon by default, so you dont need warcaster for that.
3. The range of booming blade is only 5ft, so it doesn't work with the reach from your pole arm.

Warcaster probably isn't the best feat for your build. Maybe look at resilient Con or sentinel.

Yes I missed the details under the multiclassing section that stated you don't get any new proficiencies with Sorcerer. I just assumed dipping gave you the proficiencies tied to that class. The somatic components were pretty low priority anyway. And I hadn't considered the range so that is disappointing.

I am looking at Sentinel clearly and I was looking on Resilient (con) until I found out about the Sorcerer con proficiency. But now I guess it's back on the list.

[CTurbo]

Go with Sentinel or +2 Str

[Citadel97501]

We do have a cleric who will be providing buffs to the team, but I do intend to use many concentration limited spells to stack different buffs. My main point here is that it appears to me that Booming Blade with War Caster can, in a sense, fulfill the same role as sentinel, while also providing the other benefits. The concentration will go from hard to break to nearly unbreakable.

Personally, I have a lot more respect for the lowly spear now that it has been errata'd to get Pole Arm Mastery bonuses. Additional Reaction Scale attacks are very nice, especially with Sentinel. Although the extra damage from Warcaster triggering Booming Blade post level 5, is also really powerful.

[CTurbo]

Spell Sniper with Booming Blade would be good

[djreynolds]

With aura of protection and war caster, there is little use in resilient con also

War caster is good, because there will be a time when you are going to fight sword and board regardless of having PAM. There will be a time you need defense, there is a time you might fight quarterstaff and shield (it is doable)

Also having smite spells ready to go require concentration as well.

I like war caster, it is very good

[saucerhead]

It really seems to depend on if you see yourself as more of a fighter or a caster. I like the sorcadin for doing both, but you say you plan on only dipping into sorcerer. Is that three levels? One level? Warcaster seems unnecessary if you are sticking mostly to mostly playing a paladin. You don't get many feats and a MC dip will possibly remove one.
Sentinel is one of the best for a tank, but tanks tend to sword and board, and take defensive fighting style. You've got PAM so, are you going for big damage and GWS?
If you are just thinking a one level dip for SCAG cantrips, you might be better off with going Hexblade.

[LudicSavant]

War Caster + Paladin Aura makes your Concentration very reliable and makes your OAs very punishing. A Booming Blade + Smite OA hurts, since they need to eat the rider if they actually want to move.

Sentinel's movement-stopping OA is utterly devastating to melee brutes who don't have special maneuverability options. However, I feel like these are pretty much the easiest enemies for a Paladin to fight anyways, and tend to prefer getting some more utility against enemies that are more challenging for Paladins.

Sentinel's "reaction on attacking an enemy near you" feature has its usefulness very dependent on your party composition and other build options (like how many good reactions you have already).

[Snowbluff]

... you've got it backwards. Sentinel is the feat then usually ends up being bad.

Plus, you can't cast the shield spell without an empty hand or the Warcaster feat. Warcaster always wins.

[LudicSavant]

... you've got it backwards. Sentinel is the feat then usually ends up being bad.

Plus, you can't cast the shield spell without an empty hand or the Warcaster feat. Warcaster always wins.

Who are you replying to?

I was recommending Warcaster...

[djreynolds]

War Caster + Paladin Aura makes your Concentration very reliable and makes your OAs very punishing. A Booming Blade + Smite OA hurts, since they need to eat the rider if they actually want to move.

Sentinel's movement-stopping OA is utterly devastating to melee brutes who don't have special maneuverability options. However, I feel like these are pretty much the easiest enemies for a Paladin to fight anyways, and tend to prefer getting some more utility against enemies that are more challenging for Paladins.

Sentinel's "reaction on attacking an enemy near you" feature has its usefulness very dependent on your party composition and other build options (like how many good reactions you have already).

You're right.

I even used to favor resilient con, but war caster is better because you have aura of protection already.

Also, I really like to have a smite spell under concentration, and war caster is nice.
A. cause I might keep it longer
B. You might get a chance to use it
C. You can go S&B, and still use those arcane spells you picked up

[Snowbluff]

Who are you replying to?

I was recommending Warcaster...

The OP, as I wasn't quoting anything.

Warcaster tends to be more broadly applicable.

[Sception]

If you're fighting with an actual polearm, like a halberd or glaive, I'd take sentinel. The movement cancelling opp attack is huge when you have reach and PAM, as is the reaction attack against an enemy in your reach that attacks an ally, and the ability to ignore disengage is also key. With sentinel, pam, and a reach weapon, enemies can't approach you or retreat from you or attack your friends as long as you havent spent your reaction yet. It's amazing.

Warcaster, on the other hand, is terrible with an actual polearm. As you're using a two handed weapon, you won't need warcaster to cast your somatic spells, since official ruling says you can take a hand off the weapon any time to cast a spell then go right back to wielding your weapon.

And the opportunity attack booming blade just flat out won't work, since booming blade is only 5' range, and you don't even get an opportunity attack to replace until an enemy is leaving your 10' reach. The best you could do is something like firebolt, which isnt exactly a big step up and certainly doesnt compare to just flat out cancelling the movement that the enemy thought was worth taking a hit regardless. Especially since you lose the option to stack divine smite onto the attack.

The only real benefit of warcaster when fighting with a two handed reach weapon is advantage on concentration saves, and if you're spending a feat to help concentration alone, then you should be taking resilient, which is a much stronger boost to concentration in the long run, plus applies to non-concentration con saves. Or maybe lucky, which is about as good as warcaster if you reserve the rerolls for concentration, but can also be used for other rolls in general if need be. Regardless, I wouldnt spend a whole feat on just fixing concentration saves before maxing your attack stat.

...

On the other hand, if you're fighting with a spear or quarterstaff and a shield, then you should absolutely take warcaster, as in that case you actually fo need warcaster to cast somatic spells. And since you have a 5' reach, so you will be able to use booming blade as your opp attack, which, yeah, is /almost/ as good as just stopping movement, though enemies will still be able to disengage to escape from you with no opp attack at all. And the concentration buff from warcaster isnt bad at all.
Mostly, though, it's the somatic spells that you just outright need warcaster for when fighting with a weapon and a shield.