Banjo the Clown and the Sixth Quiddity

[HackneyedTrope]

I'm just gonna...huh. I'm just gonna throw this out there. I'm just spitballing. But are we sure that we need the Dark One in order to provide the fourth quiddity? Because I can think of one other god who has ascended without any sponsorship from existing pantheons, in fact, this particular god was specifically denied membership in the Northern Pantheon: Banjo the Clown, God of Puppets.

No, hear me out. Banjo DOES have divinity, we can see an example of this HERE (can't post links yet, but it's in comic #80). Furthermore, Banjo is the rival of Giggles the Clown (God of Slapstick), who is currently worshipped by an entire tribe of orcs. Based on the Rule-of-rivals-always-being-of-equal-or-greater-power-than-you (can't remember exactly which comic this is from, if someone could find that, it would be great), Banjo MUST be of at least equivalent power. And as we can see that both ascended completely independently of any established pantheon (Hinjo, #563; as well as the fact that Elan was attempting to bring Banjo into the northern pantheon in #137), they would, by their very nature, have a unique quiddity of, I dunno, orange or something (actually, it would have to be orange, unless you move into tertiary colors). It would be pretty easy, or at least Not Impossible, a deity who is roughly in line with Banjo's principles to command one of their more powerful clerics (17th level or above) to temporarily become a Banjoist, or at least a Gigglist, in order to trap the Snarl

So, what do you think? Does Banjo have the potential to save the world (or possibly even kill the Snarl, given that with the Dark One, they would have a sum total of 5 unique quiddities), or is the God of Puppets really no more than that which he represents?

Lastly, would that make this the longest call-back in webcomic history, given that Banjo first demonstrated his power in 2004, and was shown to be unaffiliated with any current pantheon in 2005?

[1659PT 01/19/2019]

[Caerulea]

No. He is a puppet, not a god. Also, I think it would not fit well with OotS, to have a joke solve something that has dramatic stakes.

[HackneyedTrope]

No. He is a puppet, not a god. Also, I think it would not fit well with OotS, to have a joke solve something that has dramatic stakes.

Care to explain your reasoning?

EDIT: No, he's specifically shown to be able to smite people, as in comic #80. Just curious, did you mean to write in white text? 'Cause it's kinda invisible on the background.

[1709PT]

[Caerulea]

Care to explain your reasoning?

I did. (Read the white text)

[Draconi Redfir]

probly not going to happen for the same reason Banjo was not the deciding vote

[Caerulea]

EDIT: No, he's specifically shown to be able to smite people, as in comic #80. Just curious, did you mean to write in white text? 'Cause it's kinda invisible on the background.

I don't think he, even accepting that he is a god, which I do not, and assuming that he has a different quiddity than the others (he doesn't) would be powerful enough to patch the rifts. Even assuming that somehow he was, he only acts as Elan dictates, who does not know enough to direct him to patching the rifts. Furthermore, the Creed of Stone would have a better chance, because of their (previous) number of worshipers.

Yes.

[HackneyedTrope]

Ah, but he was not the deciding vote because he wasn't part of the Northern pantheon. Also, he didn't currently have a cleric capable of casting Summon Proxy. It would be easy not too difficult for one of the gods to command a cleric of theirs to become a Bajoist for long enough to recieve a 9th level spell slot.
[1712PT]

[Caerulea]

Ah, but he was not the deciding vote because he wasn't part of the Northern pantheon. Also, he didn't currently have a cleric capable of casting Summon Proxy. It would be easy not too difficult for one of the gods to command a cleric of theirs to become a Banjoist for long enough to receive a 9th level spell slot.
[1712PT]

I don't believe he has the power to grant the equivalent of 9th level spells. I took the only scene where he displayed any sort of power at all to mean that it was the limit of his power. One more worshiper wouldn't increase it much. Additionally, there is the issue that he only does things Elan instructs.

Also, if there were a third pantheon that voted against the destruction of the world, the vote before the northern pantheon would be 2 against, 1 for, and there would be no way in Hel that Hel could destroy it. At least, not without significantly more effort.

Edit—Missed your original points about giggles:
One Orc tribe does not grant unlimited power. In fact, it does not grant any power (besides that of assulting your enemies with a horde of angry Orcs. Which, while not to be underestimated, does not enable one to repair rifts in reality.) In the words of Durkon, "thar not real gods! Thar puppets!" (561)


Why are you ending your posts with a four digit number in brackets, followed by "PT"?

—Caerulea

[hroþila]

Since everything including the gods are shaped by belief, there is no agreement on whether the tiny powers displayed by Banjo are real, or merely a product of Elan's magic. But even if Banjo had some of the same quality that makes the gods divine, that wouldn't mean he has enough in terms of quantity to count as a god. Even in a "Banjo is a god" scenario, he's clearly not powerful enough and he has no clerics, so it's a dead end.

Also, the rivalry rule is one-way - the "protagonist" can cefinitely fall behind, even if their rival will always be a threat no matter what newfangled ultimate x-treme training the protagonist went through.

Just curious, did you mean to write in white text? 'Cause it's kinda invisible on the background

Writing in white is kind of a thing in this forum when you want to be coy or just feel like including easter eggs for the most dedicated forum readers

[Draconi Redfir]

if Banjo DOES have any level of Divinity, it's less then that of the Demi-gods. And they were only brought in as emergency backup voters, not being full gods yet, and even less likely to survive the destruction of the world then the Elves or the Dark One.

long story short, there is just no way an inanimate hand-puppet with worship from maybe 50 ish orcs and one bard will somehow outclass the demigod of all frost-giants, who wasn't even important enough to be invited to the primary voting.

[HackneyedTrope]

Refutations and concessions in no particular order:

Also, the rivalry rule is one-way - the "protagonist" can cefinitely fall behind, even if their rival will always be a threat no matter what newfangled ultimate x-treme training the protagonist went through.

Is Banjo the protagonist of his rivalry? Banjo's alignment seemed to be relatively neutral, given that he condoned both Belkar's sacrifices and "hates killing". Most likely, his rivalry with Giggles is more of a "Red vs Blue" thing than straight good vs evil.

I don't believe he has the power to grant the equivalent of 9th level spells.

Digging up my copy of Deities & Demigods now...
Found it. According to this, a demigod (Divine Rank 1-5) can grant spells. However, it does also mentions that people with a Divine Rank of "0" cannot grant spells unless specifically allowed by that campaign, which is what Banjo/Giggles might be. DR 1 is also mentioned to be a few hundred devout worshippers (Worship), and even more people who know of the god (Belief). He's also got no Dedication yet, which is a problem, though if Elan somehow manages to gather up a bunch of worshippers, I'm sure Belkar would be happy to turn them into Dedication

if Banjo DOES have any level of Divinity, it's less then that of the Demi-gods. And they were only brought in as emergency backup voters, not being full gods yet, and even less likely to survive the destruction of the world then the Elves or the Dark One.

He doesn't need to survive the world's destruction, just donate a "drop of power" before it according to Thor.

Even in a "Banjo is a god" scenario, he's clearly not powerful enough and he has no clerics, so it's a dead end.

Clerics can change faiths. I'm pretty sure this requires an Atonement spell, however, so it's not foolproof.

One Orc tribe does not grant unlimited power. In fact, it does not grant any power (besides that of assulting your enemies with a horde of angry Orcs. Which, while not to be underestimated, does not enable one to repair rifts in reality.)

Clerics can change gods.

One Orc tribe does not grant unlimited power. In fact, it does not grant any power (besides that of assulting your enemies with a horde of angry Orcs. Which, while not to be underestimated, does not enable one to repair rifts in reality.)

Their belief adds to his power, increasing his divine rank

long story short, there is just no way an inanimate hand-puppet with worship from maybe 50 ish orcs and one bard will somehow outclass the demigod of all frost-giants, who wasn't even important enough to be invited to the primary voting.

He doesn't have to, he just needs to be in a distinct pantheon from him.

Additionally, there is the issue that he only does things Elan instructs.

That IS a problem, and possibly a deal-breaking one.

Oh, and the thing with the numbers is a habit I picked up from fanfiction.net's PM system, which only records the date, and not the time. The numbers and letters are my current time and timezone.

[1804PT]

[CriticalFailure]

I doubt it.

What I do think is decent likely is that someone/something will end up receiving green quiddity and restoring it at some point, so that there ends up being all five known quiddities available to the Gods and potentially worked into the world at the end. The snarl-world seems like it will be important, and the possibility of something in the snarlworld, made of the four original quiddities, being taken back could be a way to bring green back into the world. For example, I could see a situation where V or V and Redcloak or whatever end up trying to separate a sample back into the constituent 4-colored strings, or something like that.

Obviously anything could happen, but when it comes to wild theorize for my own entertainment I think that there's a pretty strong possibility of green being restored to the world as the result of material from the snarl world being brought back through the rift and all five colors eventually being brought together.

[HackneyedTrope]

@CriticalFailure Good point. I didn't think of that.

[Morty]

Jokes are one thing, but does anyone actually expect the world to be saved by a gag from the very earliest days of the strip?

[HackneyedTrope]

I dunno. If jokes and gags can summon a 100ft tall demon from the Abyss...

[hroþila]

Is[/I] Banjo the protagonist of his rivalry? Banjo's alignment seemed to be relatively neutral, given that he condoned both Belkar's sacrifices and "hates killing". Most likely, his rivalry with Giggles is more of a "Red vs Blue" thing than straight good vs evil.

Being the protagonist has nothing to do with being Good or Evil, though - Belkar is a protagonist. Banjo is more of a "protagonist" than Giggles because he's the puppet of a member of the Order of the Stick. And if none of them count as "protagonists", then the "rule" doesn't apply in the first place.

(The comic in question talked about "PCs" rather than "protagonists", but they're functionally the same in this context)

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think that there will be a sixth quiddity and I place Banjo very low on the list of candidates for receiving green quiddity or becoming a god in any pantheon. While not at the top of said list I would consider Giggles as a viable candidate for deification, though, given that it's been established that the monstrous humanoid races are an afterthought to the gods and thus have not worshiped them, with the exception of the goblins after deifying The Dark One. So there would be a decent reason and a legitimate need being filled if that were to happen.

[Peelee]

I dunno. If jokes and gags can summon a 100ft tall demon from the Abyss...

Starting a problem and solving a problem are in very different leagues.

No, he's specifically shown to be able to smite people, as in comic #80.

Unless that was a Prestidigitation, which Elan has access to. I have to note it causes Roy zero pain, which is inconsistent with a smite and consistent with Prestidigitation limits. Also, it is remarkably difficult to accidentally talk in white text. Quick rule of thumb, if a post looks under 10 characters or has a big gap at the bottom, it's probably whitetexted.

[Kish]

Starting a problem and solving a problem are in very different leagues.

Also, that was a devil from the Nine Hells.

(And a single relatively minor encounter; however big the devil was, the important action at that part of the story was all happening at the fleet and instigated by a third-stringer villain. Not a fit comparison for solving the ultimate problem of the series.)

[Caerulea]

He doesn't need to survive the world's destruction, just donate a "drop of power" before it according to Thor.

That drop of power is a ninth level spell, far, far, above what Banjo has been shown to be capable of.

He doesn't have to, he just needs to be in a distinct pantheon from him.

That he was attempting to join, and nearly accepted into, the Northern Pantheon implies that his hypothetical quiddity (again, he is a puppet) would be the same as Thor's and the rest's.

21:56, EST,
—Caerulea

[zimmerwald1915]

Even assuming that somehow he was, he only acts as Elan dictates

And sometimes as Therkla dictates.

[Rrmcklin]

So, we're really having the "Elan's puppets could seriously be the solution to the ultimate problem of the series, and that wouldn't be completely terrible" discussion again, huh?

[Quebbster]

Who would cast the 9th level spell needed to donate this hypothetical quiddity?
I don't expect this to happen. Convincing Redcloak to abandon (or at least change) the Plan he has worked towards his whole life sounds like an awesome story. "The puppet fixed it" does not.
Mind you, there are probably still surprises coming.

[Mightymosy]

For the record, I think an extra quiddity (or more) are something that will happen in the comic. To me it seems like a typical back and forth for the endgame: right now we believe we need a fourth (Dark One) to solve the ultimate puzzle, so the mission seems to be clear. But endgames usually come with a surprise, and then you need to somehow work against that new factor.

Very simple, rough idea:
1. 4th is TDO's quiddity, plan seems clear and seems to work.
2. TDO and rest argue: new Snarl with even more colours (or existing Snarl upgraded to new color)! PROBLEM is next level!
3. Old quiddity (green) re-enters the story (maybe MitD is old Greek monster, maybe Greek gods escape the world in the rift, maybe essence of them has always been in starmetal between worlds?)
SOLUTION is up by one.
4. Another argument: Snarl again +1 color. PROBLEM leading again.
5. The good guys realise that this might go on indefintely if they don't change something fundamentally. But how?
Give everyone and every species on the world the right to thrive and be happy. No more monsters hunting for XP.
Make a world EVERYBODY can believe in. Boom, virtually infinite colors (by virtue of virtually infinite different people who believe different things - diversity and the rights of different beings is a HUGE theme of this comic!). Snarl contained, as long as there is peace and freedom for everybody.
Last panel being something with rainbow colors, like this LGBTG stuff :-)

[Rrmcklin]

For the record, I think an extra quiddity (or more) are something that will happen in the comic. To me it seems like a typical back and forth for the endgame: right now we believe we need a fourth (Dark One) to solve the ultimate puzzle, so the mission seems to be clear. But endgames usually come with a surprise, and then you need to somehow work against that new factor.

Very simple, rough idea:
1. 4th is TDO's quiddity, plan seems clear and seems to work.
2. TDO and rest argue: new Snarl with even more colours (or existing Snarl upgraded to new color)! PROBLEM is next level!
3. Old quiddity (green) re-enters the story (maybe MitD is old Greek monster, maybe Greek gods escape the world in the rift, maybe essence of them has always been in starmetal between worlds?)
SOLUTION is up by one.
4. Another argument: Snarl again +1 color. PROBLEM leading again.
5. The good guys realise that this might go on indefintely if they don't change something fundamentally. But how?
Give everyone and every species on the world the right to thrive and be happy. No more monsters hunting for XP.
Make a world EVERYBODY can believe in. Boom, virtually infinite colors (by virtue of virtually infinite different people who believe different things - diversity and the rights of different beings is a HUGE theme of this comic!). Snarl contained, as long as there is peace and freedom for everybody.
Last panel being something with rainbow colors, like this LGBTG stuff :-)

I mean, I have issues with your assumption that the end game is at all clear in the first place. There are still plenty of things we don't know and room for surprises. Another quiddity isn't necessary at all, and your (admittedly rough) scenario of how something like that would play out (no to all that Eastern Pantheon stuff) doesn't strike me as particularly good.

[Mightymosy]

Fair enough. Let's just see. I wrote it here so later O can say "Ha I knew four colors wouldn't be the solution!"

I don't say it MUST be this way. It's just a guess, for fun. Of course I expect it to be written much better than my rough idea. What matters to me is that I think the solution won't simply be 4-colored with the 4 colors proposed right now.
(But I also don't think Banjo or Giggles will be the replacment 4th, or 5th color either. They would be part of the "infinite color solution" I proposed, though)

[Jack Of Rivia]

Guys, in OOTSverse Gods are shaped by belief, not created. For what we know until now, each and every new god was a preexisting mortal soul raised to Godhood. So, no divine Banjo, i m soory.

[Peelee]

Guys, in OOTSverse Gods are shaped by belief, not created. For what we know until now, each and every new god was a preexisting mortal soul raised to Godhood. So, no divine Banjo, i m soory.

False. The gods created the first world, so they predated any mortals. Figure out where the gods came from however you want, so long as it doesn't include "were originally mortals."

[Jack Of Rivia]

False. The gods created the first world, so they predated any mortals. Figure out where the gods came from however you want, so long as it doesn't include "were originally mortals."

If all, that indicates that gods can come out by external realms, or come into being from nothingness. Nothing indicates that a god can be created from pure belief.

[Rrmcklin]

False. The gods created the first world, so they predated any mortals. Figure out where the gods came from however you want, so long as it doesn't include "were originally mortals."

I thought the point that Jack was making is that the newer gods were mortals, not that the original gods were originally mortal.

Though I'm not sure what that actually has to do with whether Banjo is or isn't an actual god.