Discovery Season 2

[Cikomyr]

So it is the time of positivity! Those who hated Discovery probably won't bother watching Season 2, so you don't need to post in this thread :-D

I have to say I liked the first episode. It hit all around positive moments. The only negative moment I can highlight is Spike's outburst on the bridge and Michael's reply. I am not sure what was up with that.

Besides that, I liked all characters and action best. The engineer lost on the planet was a blast.

[ImperiousLeader]

I liked this soft reboot. Lighter, zippy (so much happened), I'm pleased that they seem to be giving the rest of the cast more to do. I like that we're not in a war, the arc of the season is exploration.

[JadedDM]

Those who hated Discovery probably won't bother watching Season 2, so you don't need to post in this thread :-D

Why am I so skeptical of this?

Anyway, I more or less liked the episode. It was entertaining. Also, we got to see and hear about a lot of classic TOS/TAS species in this one. We saw a sneezing Saurian, a comatose Tellarite and Caitians got name-dropped. We also saw a Barzan, which appeared in a single episode of TNG, so pretty obscure.

I liked the scene when Discovery was about to warp away from the Enterprise, and while changing course it tilted a bit downward. Star Trek has always treated space as a 2D plane, so it was neat to, for once, show a ship depart by facing a wildly different angle.

[ViridianIIV]

It's just not Star Trek... not really.

[Cikomyr]

It's just not Star Trek... not really.

Oh, you saw the first episode? Do tell what you think is not "Star Trek"?

[JadedDM]

I remember when Enterprise first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. Because Star Trek wasn't even in its title originally, and how could there be a Vulcan first officer, when Spock was the first one ever (which was never a thing). And why didn't the technology look less impressive than a bunch of cardboard and styrofoam slapped together on a shoestring budget for a television show from the 60s?

I remember when Voyager first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. The ship isn't even called the Enterprise! How can it be Star Trek without Klingons and Romulans? What's with this Seven of Nine crap, she's way too sexy, Star Trek isn't supposed to be sexy!

I remember when Deep Space Nine first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. It doesn't even take place on a starship! The main character isn't even a captain!

I remember when The Next Generation first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. The captain is a bald sissy who drinks tea! There are families aboard the Enterprise??? How can it be Star Trek without Kirk and Spock?

So yeah, whenever someone says Discovery is 'not Star Trek,' I can't help but roll my eyes. Everybody says that about a new series. But ten years from now, nobody will question that Discovery is, in fact, Star Trek. Instead, they'll complain about whatever series comes out after that isn't really Star Trek, because it's not exactly like Discovery.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Those who hated Discovery probably won't bother watching Season 2….

If it still requires signing up for a streaming service, definitely not.

I would’ve been glad to watch Season 1, but only saw the first hour that was on broadcast TV. Very much not impressed with that first hour, but still willing to watch the rest of the season, if and when it's ever on broadcast.

Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader
I like that we're not in a war, the arc of the season is exploration.

That's definitely good news. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my main disappointment with the last couple Trek series has been their focus on reinventing particular periods of Trek history, rather than advancing the timeline past the DS9/Voyager era.

But since they don’t seem to want to do that, I’ll take exploration over yet another war.

Originally Posted by JadedDM
Star Trek has always treated space as a 2D plane, so it was neat to, for once, show a ship depart by facing a wildly different angle.

I think they did this occasionally in TNG, although I can’t call any specific episodes to mind.

[Rynjin]

I remember when Enterprise first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. Because Star Trek wasn't even in its title originally, and how could there be a Vulcan first officer, when Spock was the first one ever (which was never a thing). And why didn't the technology look less impressive than a bunch of cardboard and styrofoam slapped together on a shoestring budget for a television show from the 60s?

I remember when Voyager first came out. "It's not Star Trek!" people said. The ship isn't even called the Enterprise! How can it be Star Trek without Klingons and Romulans? What's with this Seven of Nine crap, she's way too sexy, Star Trek isn't supposed to be sexy!

I mean, to be fair, both series' were mostly irredeemable trash from start to finish, so if by "Not Star Trek" those people meant "Star trek is supposed to be good! This isn't good!' the complaint is valid there and for Discovery as well.

Mind, the first season of every series starting with TNG has been spotty, so it may well be that Discovery redeems itself in season 2 and going forward. It's enough of a trend with the franchise that I'm optimistic about Discovery S2, but I'm not watching it until all of it's out.

[hamishspence]

I think they did this occasionally in TNG, although I can’t call any specific episodes to mind.

Attacking from a different angle I remember. In the finale, All Good Things, the upgraded Enterprise comes up "from below" at Klingon warships.

[Kitten Champion]

I mean, to be fair, both series' were mostly irredeemable trash from start to finish, so if by "Not Star Trek" those people meant "Star trek is supposed to be good! This isn't good!' the complaint is valid there and for Discovery as well.

I would say with Enterprise there was a intentional direction of moving it away from established Star Trek -- from the title, to the opening theme, to the way it was advertised (with a lot more emphasis on titillating imagery being the most apparent). However, when they got down to it, it was mostly just Star Trek plots rehashed with a less likeable crew. Until the third season where it became 24 IN SPACE!!! of course.

I don't know anyone who said Voyager wasn't Trek. The vast majority of criticisms against it was how incredibly safely ensconced it was in the Trek bubble most of the time. As in, it was still doing TNG episodes even at the expense of its own premise.

DS9 got "it's not Trek" complaints far more often than either Voyager or Enterprise - and part of the reason it struggled to stay on air - and for good reason. It had a darker tone (relative to TNG), more morally ambiguous characters, very little space exploration, and moved into a more serialized format with a longstanding supporting cast. It was also - to follow Rynjin's point - very good. In large part because of those changes rather than in spite of them. That tends to be its legacy among fans of Trek and Science Fiction television, rather than how it ruffled the feathers of Roddenberry purists.


I would argue there's a reasonable distinction between what "Trek" is in terms of the superficial and substantive, unfortunately fans tend to focus on the former rather than the latter.

I would also say substantive changes should also be considered with an open mind if the writer has a valid rationale for cutting into any particular Sacred Cows.

For instance, DS9 had a pretty potent two-parter where a hawkish admiral orchestrated a secret coup d'etat under his sincere belief that the Federation was in imminent peril from the Dominion. This certainly went against the grain of Roddenberry's edict that such things wouldn't happen in his Star Fleet, but the story in part shows that that very assumption - that it can't happen here - is wishful thinking and people of good conscience have to actively defend their Democracy and basic rights especially in times of peril.

Compare this to Star Trek: Into Darkness, where a hawkish admiral does unscrupulous things to protect the Federation from the imminent peril of the Klingons. It's certainly still digging into the utopic and evolved humanity that is something of the heart of Trek, but while the DS9 admiral was someone you could sympathize with even if you're ultimately led to disagree with him as an antagonist, the Into Darkness admiral was just a villain who glibly kills his own people while justifying his criminal misdeeds with a similar-ish motivations. DS9 put the Federation repeatedly in a dark light to show how good people struggle to remain good even when tested from within. ST:ID put the Federation in a dark light so the movie could have action scenes and ultimately an excuse to have Khan as a villain again -- because Wrath of Khan.

[ImperiousLeader]

It's just not Star Trek... not really.

Sorry, it's Star Trek, and it's canon, even when Discovery violates canon. If I can't expel Enterprise from Star Trek canon (and it continues to mock me, especially when it's the only series that survives the JJ Reboot), then y'all don't get to expel Discovery.

[Metahuman1]

Sooooooo all the Discovery defenders are just going to gloss over that there heavily implying Michael and Spock use to bang each other and all the rest of the fairly blatant character assassination of Spock in the episode? Yeah figured as much.

[Androgeus]

Sooooooo all the Discovery defenders are just going to gloss over that there heavily implying Michael and Spock use to bang each other and all the rest of the fairly blatant character assassination of Spock in the episode? Yeah figured as much.

I mean there’s been no real discussion of the premier yet so saying people are glossing over it is a bit much.

That said, Yhea I hope they go a different way with what they’re implying and not the obvious thing that it’s going to be. I mean Michael was already Spock’s never mentioned human step sister, did she really need to be made more bad fan ficy by sleeping with Spock as well?

[factotum]

I'm now wondering why the first thought in everyone's head as to how two step-siblings could have had a massive falling out comes down to sex?

Found the first episode fine, apart from an annoying plot hole:

Spoiler

Show

They go to a lot of trouble to get the Hiawatha's transporters online so they can rescue everyone, but then it turns out they needn't have bothered, because Pike is able to transport down to the asteroid and then beam up with Michael without any issues...

[Metahuman1]

I mean there’s been no real discussion of the premier yet so saying people are glossing over it is a bit much.

That said, Yhea I hope they go a different way with what they’re implying and not the obvious thing that it’s going to be. I mean Michael was already Spock’s never mentioned human step sister, did she really need to be made more bad fan ficy by sleeping with Spock as well?

It's the sort of glaring thing I'd expect to be in the first 2 or 3 posts in most franchise's/series.

And ignoring the fact that by this point I think Michael has done literally everything the infamous Ensign Mary Sue ever did as her entire list of characteristics and character traits and accomplishments (With the notable exceptions of die heroically and Tragically and have a romantic encounter with Kirk. And there's still time this season for at least 1 of them to happen I'm sure.),


If there was any, any pretense of them having anything other than pure and utter unmitigated malice and loathing and hate and contempt for Star Trek and it's fan base, before that episode? It's gone now. All the stuff with Spock, even if I forgave that there heavily implying that they use to do the nasty with one another, the sheer, unmitigated assassination of all his established history and character traits, proves it beyond any reasonable doubt.

The only other possible option is that they 1: Genuinely do no know the first thing about Star Trek and were handed a list of names and terms by the studio with no idea what any of them are, and 2: Are actively chest thumpingly proud of this ignorance and maintaining it while working on the show as a lifestyle choice. Which is just as bad.

[Cikomyr]

Sooooooo all the Discovery defenders are just going to gloss over that there heavily implying Michael and Spock use to bang each other and all the rest of the fairly blatant character assassination of Spock in the episode? Yeah figured as much.

I don't think the show implied were banging, but there could have been some romantic feelings developed one way or another, which destroyed the relationship.

I personally could see Spock developing these kinds of feelings for someone, especially as a young man/boy.

BTW, I hope they make Spock emotional in his appearances, but explain how we became so reserved through this storyline. "The Cage" 's Spock was very, very emotional. Smiling and shooting the breeze. Since this happens between that episode and "Where No Man Has Gone Before", it would make for an interesting development.


Also, Pike' a grief over missing the war might also explain why he had massive psychological burden at the start of The Cage.

[ImperiousLeader]

Sooooooo all the Discovery defenders are just going to gloss over that there heavily implying Michael and Spock use to bang each other and all the rest of the fairly blatant character assassination of Spock in the episode? Yeah figured as much.

You'll have to provide the text, or the subtext. Because I might as well try and discuss Discovery's use of the Borg and the Romulans.

As for character assassination ... well, it's clear the intent is to try and draw a line between the emotional Spock we get in "The Cage" vs. the more controlled Spock we see with Kirk. Given he's not even on screen yet, it's early.

Also, Pike' a grief over missing the war might also explain why he had massive psychological burden at the start of The Cage.

We're already Post-Cage. Discovery started 10 years before Kirk, a year or two after "The Cage".

[Cikomyr]

We're already Post-Cage. Discovery started 10 years before Kirk, a year or two after "The Cage".

I know. But if The Cage happened during the war, and Pike knew about it...

[hamishspence]

According to Memory Beta, The Cage is in 2254 and Discovery begins in 2256, two years later.

[Psyren]

I'm now wondering why the first thought in everyone's head as to how two step-siblings could have had a massive falling out comes down to sex?

Yeah, that
But hey, Playground.

Found the first episode fine, apart from an annoying plot hole:

Spoiler

Show

They go to a lot of trouble to get the Hiawatha's transporters online so they can rescue everyone, but then it turns out they needn't have bothered, because Pike is able to transport down to the asteroid and then beam up with Michael without any issues...

Wasn't that because of the pattern enhancers/signal boosters they were also setting up? My impression was that they couldn't transport down there before that.


First episode didn't grab me nearly as much as episode 1 of the last one, but then, we still don't really know what the stakes are here yet. Last season was "Michael needs to end the war that she may or may not have started, or no more Federation." Bam, crystal clear goal and stakes. This one is a lot more vague - seven red bursts conveying a vague message that I guess gave Spock nightmares as a child? And also he vanished somewhere? I get that the show is called "Discovery" but that's a lot of black boxes.

[Cikomyr]

I'm now wondering why the first thought in everyone's head as to how two step-siblings could have had a massive falling out comes down to sex?

I said romantic attachment, not sex

[JadedDM]

BTW, I hope they make Spock emotional in his appearances, but explain how we became so reserved through this storyline. "The Cage" 's Spock was very, very emotional. Smiling and shooting the breeze. Since this happens between that episode and "Where No Man Has Gone Before", it would make for an interesting development.

If they do that, I can just imagine all the fake fans screaming at the top of their lungs, "CHARACTER ASSASSINATION! CHARACTER ASSASSINATION!"

[Psyren]

I said romantic attachment, not sex

That doesn't change his point. Why are we going immediately there?

All she said was that she thinks he accepted her "for a time." There was nothing romantic, sexual, or whatever innuendo/spin you want to use about that.

If they do that, I can just imagine all the fake fans screaming at the top of their lungs, "CHARACTER ASSASSINATION! CHARACTER ASSASSINATION!"

Now I really want this to happen, just so we get some lovely Twitter takedowns.

[ImperiousLeader]

"New Eden"

Spoiler free first reaction. This has to be the Trekkiest episode of Discovery we've gotten so far.

[Legato Endless]

As for character assassination ... well, it's clear the intent is to try and draw a line between the emotional Spock we get in "The Cage" vs. the more controlled Spock we see with Kirk. Given he's not even on screen yet, it's early.

Well that's disappointing. If you're going to do a backstory for an iconic character, incorporating continuity to an early sketch from the canceled pilot seems like an unnecessary dramatic limitation.

I don't have an issue with Spock getting a backstory, but I'm left cold by the modern push to explain everything in geek fiction. I like my clockwork universes as much as the next nerd but...not everything requires an explanation.

The former Half Martian who appears in "The Cage" isn't Spock, he's a 'barking sergeant' before the writers and Nimoy figured out what the character was about. Even meticulously plotted drama still goes through early and trial and error. It sounds more interesting to start with the iconic end point, and work backwards without regard for a developmental oddity in the pilot. Perhaps if "The Menagerie" was a stellar episode to elevate the clip show of Pike's adventure...but its not even the best Court Martial episode in TOS, let alone Star Trek.

Hopefully this goes somewhere interesting. My fear is we're getting more historical revision like the episode of Enterprise that felt the need to explain why makeup for Klingons in the 60s was less sophisticated than later installments.

[hamishspence]

Well that's disappointing. If you're going to do a backstory for an iconic character, incorporating continuity to an early sketch from the canceled pilot seems like an unnecessary dramatic limitation.

"The Cage" still happened in-universe - hence the two parter where Spock returns Pike to Talos IV. I think Spock's emotional moments from the pilot are also present in the two-parter, in scenes that go back to the events of the pilot.

[Legato Endless]

"The Cage" still happened in-universe - hence the two parter where Spock returns Pike to Talos IV. I think Spock's emotional moments from the pilot are also present in the two-parter, in scenes that go back to the events of the pilot.

Yes I know, that's why I mentioned "The Menagerie" in my post. My point wasn't about canonicity, it was about reconnecting to an in timeline but nevertheless abandoned character sketch in Trek history.

(The biggest change is the final scene is recontextualized from an illusion of Pike returning to the surface to Pike actually coming back to be with Vina so he can experience life outside his paralyzed body. Spock's emotional behavior gets a quip from Kirk to try out smooth out the crinkles.)

The events being canon doesn't change its early development awkwardness.

Hamishspence, do we ever get an explanation for why Talos IV alone in the Federation carries a death sentence in any Trek material?

[hamishspence]

The episode itself provides an explanation of sorts from the Talosians - if the Federation learns their powers, it will reduce itself to a dying civilization, just as they did.

Hence, whatever Pike's conversation with Starfleet Command was - it included that "Federation doomed to extinction" predicted consequence, and that's why the mandatory death penalty was settled on.

[Lacuna Caster]

So yeah, whenever someone says Discovery is 'not Star Trek,' I can't help but roll my eyes. Everybody says that about a new series. But ten years from now, nobody will question that Discovery is, in fact, Star Trek. Instead, they'll complain about whatever series comes out after that isn't really Star Trek, because it's not exactly like Discovery.

I mean, to be fair, both series' were mostly irredeemable trash from start to finish, so if by "Not Star Trek" those people meant "Star trek is supposed to be good! This isn't good!' the complaint is valid there and for Discovery as well.

Mind, the first season of every series starting with TNG has been spotty, so it may well be that Discovery redeems itself in season 2 and going forward. It's enough of a trend with the franchise that I'm optimistic about Discovery S2, but I'm not watching it until all of it's out.

I'm sure this has been argued to death already, but... ...insofar as Star Trek is commonly understood to be supportive of certain liberal/progressive ideals such as foreign diplomacy and racial tolerance, I found it fairly disgusting that the Vulcans and their proxy-mouthpiece, of all people, were endorsing reflexive shoot-on-sight policies toward an entire species as a result of two bad encounters. Because clearly that was a suuuuper rational thing to do.

Nothing post-DS9 has really held my attention anyway, but I was sufficiently irritated by the first few episodes of Discovery that I stopped watching and haven't gone back.

And ignoring the fact that by this point I think Michael has done literally everything the infamous Ensign Mary Sue ever did as her entire list of characteristics and character traits and accomplishments (With the notable exceptions of die heroically and Tragically and have a romantic encounter with Kirk. And there's still time this season for at least 1 of them to happen I'm sure.)...

So, yeah, zero regrets.

[zimmerwald1915]

The episode itself provides an explanation of sorts from the Talosians - if the Federation learns their powers, it will reduce itself to a dying civilization, just as they did.

And then the Federation went on to invent the Holodeck, which is exactly the same as the Talosians' powers, only technological rather than mental.

Perhaps that's why we haven't gotten anything post-Voyager. There's nothing to get other than Gothic holo-novels.