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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Alright. Let us say that we have a nation that feels like it needs a democracy of some sort. Let us also say that magicaly influencing the vote is a problem, and we need to avoid that. How would we do it with tools of both 3.5 and PF? (I'm just going to ignore RAW Diplomacy, let us assume that the voters are harder to sway then that.)

    If you want to bring in reasonable homebrew, or PF spheres or psionics, that is fine by me.

    The big things to block are divination to forecast the vote, Enchantment and illusion to influence people, and any sort of meddling with vote count needs blocking.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    The simplest way? Research a spell that creates ballots that cannot be interfered with.



    Less glibly, consider the level of power that's needed to interfere in the way you intend - and make sure that they will actually interfere. Most 3.5e/PF spells I know of that could foresee the outcome of an election specifically allow for the "if action is taken, the outcome will change" issue. In such cases, the divination spells aren't really a problem - they'd act more like highly reliable polling data that influences the actions of the candidates. Illusion, on the other hand, is potentially a major problem - but not necessarily - it depends heavily on if the "mass media" exists in your world. Before we can discuss how to prevent the votes from being tampered with directly, we need to figure out what sort of tampering is possible.


    In other words, before you can ask "How do I prevent somebody from using magic to cheat in an election?", you first have to ask "How do you cheat in an election with magic?".

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    It depends on how high magic the world is. IME in your standard D&D world magic tends to be somewhat isolated, you might have magic academies around but you'll mostly have a couple of low level mages a city. In that case any attempted tampering is unlikely to be off a scale to affect elections, unless your city happens to be the one with the country's magic school.

    For initial discussion I will ignore divinations, as that's a whole mess of stuff not directly related to influencing the way others vote.

    Assuming a more magical world, say one magical academy every few cities instead of one per country, then the question becomes one of how entwined the mages are with normal society. Are we talking about something like the Prince of Nothing trilogy (although I hear not the later books), where magical schools are relatively seperate, or something more like the Forgotten Realms where magic often appears in everyday life. In the former more effort is probably given to keeping the academies out of elections as a whole, although you still have the problem of unaligned mages, and other countries using their mages to influence elections. The more involved mages are the closer we get to the idea of permanenced Anti-Magic Fields covering polling stations.

    But all of this has been assuming a relatively modern democracy, where everybody over the age of majority gets a vote. We can also lessen the danger by restricting the vote (somewhat counter-intuitively, because it means less people need to be influenced). If we assume that items that protect against illusions and enchantment are common enough to be bought than ownership of such an item or a certain level of income might be a prerequisite for voting (similar to how land ownership used to be a prerequisite). Although unless said restriction directly increases access to anti-tamper magic among the voting population it just becomes easier to deal with.

    Which brings me to my final point. To pull this off you either need to have a high level custom enchantment/illusion spell to effect enough people, probably one designed specifically for this purpose, or a large number of mages to effect enough people with low level spells. If you have enough of the latter to influence the election why aren't you taking over the country more directly? Assassinate the government, mind control the heads of military long enough to consolidate power, replace people in positions of power with people favourable to you ASAP, maybe install a puppet head of state instead of being it yourself. You have hundreds to thousands of mages at your disposal, you could have mind controlled the existing parliament months ago. If you can do the former, do you really care about who's in power unless they're trying to interfere with your tax haven demiplane?
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Have a large number of clerics cast Commune to ask a god with fair elections in their portfolio. Portfolio sense means the god will know if any tampering took place.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Do what they do in the real-world countries that are serious about election security (which does not include the US) - semi-permanent dye applied to the thumb after you vote. Doesn't come off with readily available solvents/soaps, and naturally wears off over the next month.

    A first level spell could bypass it - for one person - but only for one person at a time. Also, make sure the vote proctors know the people for their precinct to reduce the chances of ID fraud.

    The real challenge is securing the ballot boxes or records, transporting them, and tallying them without interference. If there are a few hundred voting stations, it's likely too much to mass-scry for surveillance and remote counting.

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Well, the best thing to do would be to ignore the silly ''world" rules in D&D.

    Then you could have a world with 13th farmers, 12th level blacksmiths and 10th level tailors. This would make it difficult to use much magic to effect anything, as even Farmer Bob would have a good save.

    Then you could have lots of magic items and counter magic. Like everyone having rings of mind protection.

    And more so you can up the fantasy to 11, and have things like a 'voting ward' or an 'election myhtral' or a 'Honest Dragon'. And other such fantasy things.

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Do what they do in the real-world countries that are serious about election security (which does not include the US) - semi-permanent dye applied to the thumb after you vote. Doesn't come off with readily available solvents/soaps, and naturally wears off over the next month.

    A first level spell could bypass it - for one person - but only for one person at a time. Also, make sure the vote proctors know the people for their precinct to reduce the chances of ID fraud.

    The real challenge is securing the ballot boxes or records, transporting them, and tallying them without interference. If there are a few hundred voting stations, it's likely too much to mass-scry for surveillance and remote counting.
    that's brilliant - let me go look at arcane mark! Takes care of any tampering with vote numbers, illusory voters, ect.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Have a large number of clerics cast Commune to ask a god with fair elections in their portfolio. Portfolio sense means the god will know if any tampering took place.
    Ah, right, the after election reveiw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    It depends on how high magic the world is. IME in your standard D&D world magic tends to be somewhat isolated, you might have magic academies around but you'll mostly have a couple of low level mages a city. In that case any attempted tampering is unlikely to be off a scale to affect elections, unless your city happens to be the one with the country's magic school.

    For initial discussion I will ignore divinations, as that's a whole mess of stuff not directly related to influencing the way others vote.

    Assuming a more magical world, say one magical academy every few cities instead of one per country, then the question becomes one of how entwined the mages are with normal society. Are we talking about something like the Prince of Nothing trilogy (although I hear not the later books), where magical schools are relatively seperate, or something more like the Forgotten Realms where magic often appears in everyday life. In the former more effort is probably given to keeping the academies out of elections as a whole, although you still have the problem of unaligned mages, and other countries using their mages to influence elections. The more involved mages are the closer we get to the idea of permanenced Anti-Magic Fields covering polling stations.

    But all of this has been assuming a relatively modern democracy, where everybody over the age of majority gets a vote. We can also lessen the danger by restricting the vote (somewhat counter-intuitively, because it means less people need to be influenced). If we assume that items that protect against illusions and enchantment are common enough to be bought than ownership of such an item or a certain level of income might be a prerequisite for voting (similar to how land ownership used to be a prerequisite). Although unless said restriction directly increases access to anti-tamper magic among the voting population it just becomes easier to deal with.

    Which brings me to my final point. To pull this off you either need to have a high level custom enchantment/illusion spell to effect enough people, probably one designed specifically for this purpose, or a large number of mages to effect enough people with low level spells. If you have enough of the latter to influence the election why aren't you taking over the country more directly? Assassinate the government, mind control the heads of military long enough to consolidate power, replace people in positions of power with people favourable to you ASAP, maybe install a puppet head of state instead of being it yourself. You have hundreds to thousands of mages at your disposal, you could have mind controlled the existing parliament months ago. If you can do the former, do you really care about who's in power unless they're trying to interfere with your tax haven demiplane?
    True. That is one whole can of worms. Let's assume our nation has some way of protecting leaders, it's just not cost effective to mindblank the whole nation.
    Also, Tax Haven Demiplanes - that is a hilarious idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    The simplest way? Research a spell that creates ballots that cannot be interfered with.



    Less glibly, consider the level of power that's needed to interfere in the way you intend - and make sure that they will actually interfere. Most 3.5e/PF spells I know of that could foresee the outcome of an election specifically allow for the "if action is taken, the outcome will change" issue. In such cases, the divination spells aren't really a problem - they'd act more like highly reliable polling data that influences the actions of the candidates. Illusion, on the other hand, is potentially a major problem - but not necessarily - it depends heavily on if the "mass media" exists in your world. Before we can discuss how to prevent the votes from being tampered with directly, we need to figure out what sort of tampering is possible.


    In other words, before you can ask "How do I prevent somebody from using magic to cheat in an election?", you first have to ask "How do you cheat in an election with magic?".
    Hmm... Mass Suggestion or similar would be quite effective, necromancy and some effective disguises might be a way to get a lot of free votes... I am sure planar binding can be used somehow. If you have a caster who aims to alter the election in favor of one people, antipathy/sympathy or some such?
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS View Post
    Hmm... Mass Suggestion or similar would be quite effective, necromancy and some effective disguises might be a way to get a lot of free votes... I am sure planar binding can be used somehow. If you have a caster who aims to alter the election in favor of one people, antipathy/sympathy or some such?
    Mass Suggestion would allow a mid-to-high level caster to win an election. As long as you're talking about a voting margin under 1000, and nobody who could possibly figure out what's going on. Necromancy offers little advantage over just disguises, as undead voters simply add more ways to get detected. These methods are not all that effective, and the caster can probably find something much better to do with the spell slots.

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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Mass Suggestion would allow a mid-to-high level caster to win an election. As long as you're talking about a voting margin under 1000, and nobody who could possibly figure out what's going on. Necromancy offers little advantage over just disguises, as undead voters simply add more ways to get detected. These methods are not all that effective, and the caster can probably find something much better to do with the spell slots.
    The best use of mind control magic would be to use it on the vote counters, not the voters.
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    The best use of mind control magic would be to use it on the vote counters, not the voters.
    Though it's easier to protect a small group... Mandatory Protection from Serpents continual spell pin when you go into the booth to vote, and find a way to deal with the fairly voting Yuan-Ti?
    It gets rid of most problems with low level casters, a few Warlocks, or a Mass Suggestion. If a wizard with enough levels to cast Mindrape is meddling, you have bigger problems.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Remember that you need ballot security not just after the vote, but before it. Otherwise, if the ballot is supposed to look like
    [ ]Fred the Magnificent
    [ ]Joe the Wonderful
    then a mage working for Joe can sneak into a Fred-leaning precinct and Secret Page all of those ballots so they instead look like
    [ ]Joe the Wonderful
    [ ]Fred the Magnificent
    to everyone but the vote-counters. Now, when a voter makes a check mark next to what they think is Fred's name, it's actually next to Joe's.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Actually supposing there is no dominant faction and the elections are contested either by 2 major parties or a mess of small parties that form coalitions of convenience there is no reason to do anything.

    If everybody is doing shenanigans then they cancel each other out. Plus the populace is aware that shenanigans are going on and take whatever precautions they deem necessary.

    It only becomes an issue where one faction is secretly doing magic, But if party A’s mages cast an illusion, you can be sure party B’s mages will cast dispel.

    If you look at history it isn’t until the late 1800s that you start getting what we would call free and fair elections. In the Roman republic taking bribes to vote a particular way in an election was considered OK, what was considered dishonorable was to take a bribe and not vote according to the bribe. You have the rotten boroughs in England. In almost every democracy roving gangs of thugs coercing voters has occurred.

    So in a medieval or classic setting vote influencing shenanigans is the norm, not the exception. What balances it in game is that all the factions are doing it and all the factions are taking action to prevent it affecting them.

    The reason “using magic to affect the election is bad” has become a trope is because in fiction it is presented as asymmetrical. I.e. only one (dishonorable) faction is doing it while the other (honorable) factions get screwed.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Some sort of democracy? Oh, that's easy.
    Democracy means One man - one vote.
    The Patrician is that man, and he has the vote.

    Or, you know,
    Feudalism -- It's Your Count That Votes
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Mandatory voting in a chambers warded with antimagic sigils. If you're not on the census, you're not allowed in but held until the election is over.

    Now you just need to secure the ballots and the counters; similar chamber, adjacent to the voting location. Now it's just a matter of faithful public servants.

    It's a bit draconian, I admit, but there's just no way to secure the entire adult populace against magical influence while any but an absolutely tiny proportion of them are running around free. FWIW, this cuts down on a lot of mundane voter corruption too.

    The biggest problem with this, of course, is that a government that slips toward tyranny gets a golden, shining opportunity to dispose of dissidents every election cycle.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Mandatory voting in a chambers warded with antimagic sigils. If you're not on the census, you're not allowed in but held until the election is over.

    Now you just need to secure the ballots and the counters; similar chamber, adjacent to the voting location. Now it's just a matter of faithful public servants.

    It's a bit draconian, I admit, but there's just no way to secure the entire adult populace against magical influence while any but an absolutely tiny proportion of them are running around free. FWIW, this cuts down on a lot of mundane voter corruption too.

    The biggest problem with this, of course, is that a government that slips toward tyranny gets a golden, shining opportunity to dispose of dissidents every election cycle.
    Auto resetting magic traps of Break Enchantment and Remove Curse and Restoration on the doorways to these chambers too.

    To mitigate potential blackmailing of folks with stuff that would normally just be suppressed by antimagic.

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    I think that the spells affecting the voters directly aren't the problem. I wouldn't enchant the voters. I'd diplomance/performance them.

    Seriously, with 10 minutes you can turn people into fanatics. It takes a DC 90 to get from indifferent to fanatic. That's...low. Do a couple of public speeches with either diplomacy or perform(oratory) and you can convince people the sky is red if magic boosts you, not affecting them. That's much more serious than a couple of enchantments. Enchantments can be countered with an anti-magic field. This... can't.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Have a large number of clerics cast Commune to ask a god with fair elections in their portfolio. Portfolio sense means the god will know if any tampering took place.
    Close, but why involve the middle man at all?

    The "vote" occurs by everyone saying a prayer to the god of fair voting. A demigod can sense anything that involves 1000 or more people, so as long as 1000 or more people cast their vote prayers at the same time such that it becomes a single happening, the demigod can sense it- and a lesser deity only needs 500 people to sense. An intermediate deity can see for a whole week into the past and future, so you can commune a full week before the "vote" is even supposed to take place and get results from the last week leading up to your casting. At this power level they aren't even required to remember it for you, since they can actively sense it at the time you're asking the question.

    This method can only be interfered with by deities of the same rank or above that of the deity you're asking, and even then only within a number of miles of an altar. Even if there's no deity with a "fair voting" portfolio, a more general "fairness" or "fair play" statement ought to apply, and any lawful deity would likely be interested enough to remote view the election even if it wasn't within their portfolio (send them a Sending if a simple prayer isn't enough to reach them when they're not looking). So as long as there's a powerful enough lawful deity that their remote viewing can't be blocked, a cleric of that deity could ask them to watch during the vote, after which they can be Commune'd for the answer.

    Routing the election results through a deity also pretty well defeats any mortal ability to predict them. The clerics doing the Communing can announce the results from within a Hallowed area, meaning they can't possibly be mind controlled at the time if you don't trust another caster to verify, and/or also submit to truth assurance spells under the usual precautions (from outside the Hallow) if you don't trust the cleric. And if there's a deity with enough power and interested to block this from happening, then you've got problems big enough that no normal vote could be secured anyway.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    I would equip all voting places with some item that can continuously detect magic (sort of like a metal detector), and a ring/amulet/whatever of protection from evil.
    The voters would be scanned for magic, then they would be given the ring to ensure that they would be free from mind control.

    Those two items should cost a few thousands gp, so they are affordable. There are ways to fool both, but they require high level magic, so it would be highly unlikely to tamper with elections on a large scale.
    If your nation has access to powerful divination, use it on a few random places, just to ensure that high level tampering would have a chance of being detected.

    Votes are to be counted directly on the location, by a large number of people, and still looking for magic. It's possible to tamper with the mind of a large number of people, but it's impossible to kep it under cover. You either kill all people involved, which will be a major tip that something is amiss, or the moment they put on the ring of protection from evil (or they roll a 20 on their saving throw) they can tell evereryone that they were dominated.
    I guess mind rape would be effective, but if you have the resources to mind rape thousands of people across the country in a single day, then I doubt you can be stopped anyway.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    If I was in D&D and trying to interfere in an election in a way that would either go largely unquestioned or would be difficult to stop without attacking a different step of the democratic process, I've got a couple basic ideas that can really add up:

    1) Leadership

    Okay so the obvious benefit here is that you can have a small group of people vote how you tell them to, but the greater power here is making them a campaigning force - either their bard-wannabes spreading the gospel of the candidates you like, or their objectively uncharismatic unconvincing folk that embody the worst stereotypes of the candidates you don't like. Release them into a community large enough that their presence doesn't cause suspicion, and you end up tipping the scales in that area.

    Additionally, even if you learn for sure that this is being done, what can be done about it that isn't even more undemocratic? Stopping false flag campaigning for the enemy is probably an ethical move, but stopping people from campaigning for candidates they support? That's gonna be sketchier.

    2) Weather Magic

    Screw with the weather somehow; praying to a deity for assistance, buying a scroll of Control Weather the day before the election, or (if you really wanna swing your adventurer **** around but don't want to spend more than a single spell slot on it, cast Fimbulwinter like a week before Election day. Especially if it's already a wintery locale, you might well be able to go unquestioned or opposed save for some occasional pockets where the election folk scraped together enough cash for the Control Weather scrolls to keep their locations calm for one day.

    3) Zombie Plague

    Locate a single wight and subdue it in some manner (it's CR 3, so probably fairly easy early on), and unleash it upon some unsuspecting town or city in the dead of night, preferably somewhere population dense where people would be asleep and unprepared for combat (slums, apartment buildings, adventurer-less inns and taverns, etc), and leave the wight to have fun procreating. It's recommended you do this somewhere that has a strong lean towards policies or politicians you strongly disagree with that are probably not gonna be swayed by trick 1 or deterred by trick 2. Dead people don't get to vote (well, maybe the vampires), and it's not like whatever nation is doing this will grind the whole election process to a halt just because some random necromancer decided to be a **** somewhere that is inconvenient for one of the politicians - if D&D democracy nation kept the polls open until a major population center wasn't under attack by monsters in some significant fashion, the polls would never close. Just gotta keep things moving, and if adventurers get the zombie plague under control in time for the surviving population to exercise their patriotic duty, then even better...but that's icing, not the cake.


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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Close, but why involve the middle man at all?

    The "vote" occurs by everyone saying a prayer to the god of fair voting. A demigod can sense anything that involves 1000 or more people, so as long as 1000 or more people cast their vote prayers at the same time such that it becomes a single happening, the demigod can sense it- and a lesser deity only needs 500 people to sense. An intermediate deity can see for a whole week into the past and future, so you can commune a full week before the "vote" is even supposed to take place and get results from the last week leading up to your casting. At this power level they aren't even required to remember it for you, since they can actively sense it at the time you're asking the question.

    This method can only be interfered with by deities of the same rank or above that of the deity you're asking, and even then only within a number of miles of an altar. Even if there's no deity with a "fair voting" portfolio, a more general "fairness" or "fair play" statement ought to apply, and any lawful deity would likely be interested enough to remote view the election even if it wasn't within their portfolio (send them a Sending if a simple prayer isn't enough to reach them when they're not looking). So as long as there's a powerful enough lawful deity that their remote viewing can't be blocked, a cleric of that deity could ask them to watch during the vote, after which they can be Commune'd for the answer.

    Routing the election results through a deity also pretty well defeats any mortal ability to predict them. The clerics doing the Communing can announce the results from within a Hallowed area, meaning they can't possibly be mind controlled at the time if you don't trust another caster to verify, and/or also submit to truth assurance spells under the usual precautions (from outside the Hallow) if you don't trust the cleric. And if there's a deity with enough power and interested to block this from happening, then you've got problems big enough that no normal vote could be secured anyway.
    I like it. Really, getting a couple of appropriate lawful and/or good deities involved in your election seems like a good deal all around - the state gets the benefit of unbeatable SDAs and a devoted group of casters for security and confirmation purposes, and the gods in question benefit from the advancement of portfolio elements and the good publicity that comes with their participation and support.

    Plus, gods campaigning to be on that year's election commission could make for a worthwhile setting element.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2019-01-21 at 07:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Close, but why involve the middle man at all?

    The "vote" occurs by everyone saying a prayer to the god of fair voting. A demigod can sense anything that involves 1000 or more people, so as long as 1000 or more people cast their vote prayers at the same time such that it becomes a single happening, the demigod can sense it- and a lesser deity only needs 500 people to sense. An intermediate deity can see for a whole week into the past and future, so you can commune a full week before the "vote" is even supposed to take place and get results from the last week leading up to your casting. At this power level they aren't even required to remember it for you, since they can actively sense it at the time you're asking the question.

    This method can only be interfered with by deities of the same rank or above that of the deity you're asking, and even then only within a number of miles of an altar. Even if there's no deity with a "fair voting" portfolio, a more general "fairness" or "fair play" statement ought to apply, and any lawful deity would likely be interested enough to remote view the election even if it wasn't within their portfolio (send them a Sending if a simple prayer isn't enough to reach them when they're not looking). So as long as there's a powerful enough lawful deity that their remote viewing can't be blocked, a cleric of that deity could ask them to watch during the vote, after which they can be Commune'd for the answer.

    Routing the election results through a deity also pretty well defeats any mortal ability to predict them. The clerics doing the Communing can announce the results from within a Hallowed area, meaning they can't possibly be mind controlled at the time if you don't trust another caster to verify, and/or also submit to truth assurance spells under the usual precautions (from outside the Hallow) if you don't trust the cleric. And if there's a deity with enough power and interested to block this from happening, then you've got problems big enough that no normal vote could be secured anyway.
    This is brilliant. Well done!
    Also love thee idea that you also have to select your vote counting deities
    Last edited by JMS; 2019-01-21 at 07:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    If you're in the right sort of setting to go for the deity option, that's probably your best choice.

    For other settings, if your hustings and/or polling stations are within areas protected by Hallow, then most forms of mind control and possession simply won't work (since everyone in the area is automatically under Protection from Evil while they're there). Hallow can also have a Detect Magic effect attached to it, although I'm not sure how it's intended to work. That should defeat most 'easy' options for a mage looking to cheat. I suppose you might also want True Seeing and Arcane Sight or Greater Arcane Sight in play, if you can get them.

    While this wouldn't be a perfect approach, it might be judged 'good enough' by a government or society.

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    There are powerful lawful deities in every setting, most small and every large or larger city will have 9th level clerics who can cast the spells. The main reasons for it not to work are either the DM being against it, the fact that if the clerics are trusted enough to run elections they'd probably just be in charge already, the fact that like most optimization it relies on information people don't normally have (details of how deities work), or no one having thought of it. So plenty of reasons, but most of them not any worse than anything else.

    Regarding the "make a spell to do it" solution, Towers of High Sorcery has a bunch of specific purpose spells including one that. . . sends a message to all the wizards of high sorcery for a vote and gives you the result. They made it a 9th level spell (not inappropriate when compared to Sending after all), so it's even more restricted than Commune, but for people that want a precedent there is a published book with a vote spell.

    Personally, I'd expect anyone ready to haul out a bunch of magic to safeguard the people's election ought to be aware of the mechanics involved. If they know enough about divinations and espionage magic to actually address the problem, they can probably guess that the only secure point will be a top-tier deity, unless the "election" is so small it need hardly be called an election. And furthermore that while they're worrying about electing some mortal with all the usual foibles, the planes are full of extremely powerful immortal exemplars of whatever mix of ruling alignments they desire who would probably be better at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feantar View Post
    I think that the spells affecting the voters directly aren't the problem. I wouldn't enchant the voters. I'd diplomance/performance them.

    Seriously, with 10 minutes you can turn people into fanatics. It takes a DC 90 to get from indifferent to fanatic. That's...low. Do a couple of public speeches with either diplomacy or perform(oratory) and you can convince people the sky is red if magic boosts you, not affecting them. That's much more serious than a couple of enchantments. Enchantments can be countered with an anti-magic field. This... can't.
    A) The OP has explicitly said this doesn't work that way for this exercise.

    B) The diplomacy skill represents talking to people to sway them to your way of thinking and political speeches are nothing if not performances. This is exactly how you're supposed to win a fair and balanced election.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    If I was in D&D and trying to interfere in an election in a way that would either go largely unquestioned or would be difficult to stop without attacking a different step of the democratic process, I've got a couple basic ideas that can really add up:

    1) Leadership

    Okay so the obvious benefit here is that you can have a small group of people vote how you tell them to, but the greater power here is making them a campaigning force - either their bard-wannabes spreading the gospel of the candidates you like, or their objectively uncharismatic unconvincing folk that embody the worst stereotypes of the candidates you don't like. Release them into a community large enough that their presence doesn't cause suspicion, and you end up tipping the scales in that area.

    Additionally, even if you learn for sure that this is being done, what can be done about it that isn't even more undemocratic? Stopping false flag campaigning for the enemy is probably an ethical move, but stopping people from campaigning for candidates they support? That's gonna be sketchier.

    2) Weather Magic

    Screw with the weather somehow; praying to a deity for assistance, buying a scroll of Control Weather the day before the election, or (if you really wanna swing your adventurer **** around but don't want to spend more than a single spell slot on it, cast Fimbulwinter like a week before Election day. Especially if it's already a wintery locale, you might well be able to go unquestioned or opposed save for some occasional pockets where the election folk scraped together enough cash for the Control Weather scrolls to keep their locations calm for one day.

    3) Zombie Plague

    (Snip)
    I feel like the leadership is akin to the campaign staff of your standard political campaign, and so, anyone with a chance to win would effectively already have it. Second, Weather is brilliant, as is the Whight fear strategy. Those would be the real tools to influence an election, since they are harder to spot.
    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    I would equip all voting places with some item that can continuously detect magic (sort of like a metal detector), and a ring/amulet/whatever of protection from evil.
    The voters would be scanned for magic, then they would be given the ring to ensure that they would be free from mind control.

    Those two items should cost a few thousands gp, so they are affordable. There are ways to fool both, but they require high level magic, so it would be highly unlikely to tamper with elections on a large scale.
    If your nation has access to powerful divination, use it on a few random places, just to ensure that high level tampering would have a chance of being detected.

    Votes are to be counted directly on the location, by a large number of people, and still looking for magic. It's possible to tamper with the mind of a large number of people, but it's impossible to kep it under cover. You either kill all people involved, which will be a major tip that something is amiss, or the moment they put on the ring of protection from evil (or they roll a 20 on their saving throw) they can tell evereryone that they were dominated.
    I guess mind rape would be effective, but if you have the resources to mind rape thousands of people across the country in a single day, then I doubt you can be stopped anyway.
    Cool, this seems very effective as a method. Seems good. (Protection from Chaos may be more appropriate for voting.)
    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    If you're in the right sort of setting to go for the deity option, that's probably your best choice.

    For other settings, if your hustings and/or polling stations are within areas protected by Hallow, then most forms of mind control and possession simply won't work (since everyone in the area is automatically under Protection from Evil while they're there). Hallow can also have a Detect Magic effect attached to it, although I'm not sure how it's intended to work. That should defeat most 'easy' options for a mage looking to cheat. I suppose you might also want True Seeing and Arcane Sight or Greater Arcane Sight in play, if you can get them.

    While this wouldn't be a perfect approach, it might be judged 'good enough' by a government or society.
    This seems to be one of the most comprehensive! Well done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    A) The OP has explicitly said this doesn't work that way for this exercise.

    B) The diplomacy skill represents talking to people to sway them to your way of thinking and political speeches are nothing if not performances. This is exactly how you're supposed to win a fair and balanced election.
    Yeah, everyone knows about how bad diplomacy is. I felt like the debate would be better if we just acknowledged it and moved on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Regarding the "make a spell to do it" solution, Towers of High Sorcery has a bunch of specific purpose spells including one that. . . sends a message to all the wizards of high sorcery for a vote and gives you the result. They made it a 9th level spell (not inappropriate when compared to Sending after all), so it's even more restricted than Commune, but for people that want a precedent there is a published book with a vote spell.
    Cool spell! What scale?
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    I'm away from my books now, but I seem to recall Dragons of Eberron has an explanation as to how dragons in Argonnessen voted.

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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    The grand mage-elector steps onto the stage, holding the 25,000 gp diamond selected for this year’s election. Mages of all sorts, official government judges and private hired observers beholden to all sides and interests, watch like hawks for any sort of duplicity.

    Holding the diamond aloft dramatically, the grand mage-elector declares in a loud and clear voice, “I wish for the person who would win if every eligible voter were to vote freely, without duress or compulsion, with full knowledge of the way his vote were to effect the election, to appear in this circle on this stage right now!”

    The diamond crumbles to dust, and in the circle appears the winner of the election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The grand mage-elector steps onto the stage, holding the 25,000 gp diamond selected for this year’s election. Mages of all sorts, official government judges and private hired observers beholden to all sides and interests, watch like hawks for any sort of duplicity.

    Holding the diamond aloft dramatically, the grand mage-elector declares in a loud and clear voice, “I wish for the person who would win if every eligible voter were to vote freely, without duress or compulsion, with full knowledge of the way his vote were to effect the election, to appear in this circle on this stage right now!”

    The diamond crumbles to dust, and in the circle appears the winner of the election.
    Let's assume this a fair use of Wish that isn't over the line, and is granted without any twisting. I as a play could accept this conclusion, but the average peasant knows far less about the mechanical capabilities and limitations of Wish than I do, but even if they intellectually understood that a Wish was capable of what you just used it for...

    ..."what you just used it for" is "declaring you've received the results of the election without actually holding an election".

    EDIT: Ignoring the direct consequences this would deal the area's morale through the damage done to the "election's" transparency, and ignoring how going about "electing" people in this manner could very well threaten the peaceful transition of power, it feels like this would be easy to fake for either an 2) individual capable of 9th lvl spells in general and Wish in specific, or 2) an unethical governing body.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2019-01-22 at 02:43 AM.


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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Let's assume this a fair use of Wish that isn't over the line, and is granted without any twisting.
    Well finding the person is already within the capabilities of a 5th level spell, and transporting the thing you desire to you is fairly common use of wish by theorycrafters (due to it being an example of what a wish for "too much" might cause in the first place), I don't see much room to twist it that doesn't qualify as direct DM interference. Either it's possible, it's not, or the DM decides to screw with you. Either way, you'd just find out whether it's possible before trying it in the first place. Probably via magic. "I wish to know if the following wish is possible to fulfill via the wish spell without twisting" seems like a pretty easy sell to me, assuming of course that you can't just Divination/Commune/dupe the answer to begin with.
    Ignoring the direct consequences this would deal the area's morale through the damage done to the "election's" transparency
    You can't get any more transparent than "I cast the most powerful spell and it did the thing." Unless you're suggesting this would replace all campaigning, but it wouldn't. Even if the wish is artificially applying full comprehension and votes to the many people who wouldn't bother voting or wouldn't fully comprehend the ramifications, people would still have to campaign just to be known well enough to qualify.

    I would expect the knowledge that their rulers are chosen by application of the most powerful magic in the world in spite of any attempts to mislead the public would vastly increase morale. Absolute faith in your leadership? Guaranteed by an independent observable process that simply works, observed and reported on by potentially dozens of independent experts who can verify it? Now that's conviction.

    The only morale loss I could think of would be knowing that anyone *not* elected via absolute magical/deific voting, was not chosen absolutely. Knowing that the top ruling is chosen perfectly doesn't remove the long chain down to the bottom upon which corruption will inevitably accumulate. But if you think about that in the first place, you probably had no faith in any leaders, so one is an improvement over none.
    and ignoring how going about "electing" people in this manner could very well threaten the peaceful transition of power, it feels like this would be easy to fake for either an 2) individual capable of 9th lvl spells in general and Wish in specific, or 2) an unethical governing body.
    Uh, any "election" staged by an unethical ruling body is easy to fake. That's kinda the whole point of shifting the process. it does not matter one whit what sort of ballot safety measures you might employ if even a small number of the people running the show have decided to turn. A wish isn't as easily cross verified as a deity, but you'd still obviously have a collection of other high level casters from across the land and beyond who can verify that what happened was a wish and not something else. And instead of ballots and counters and transportation to tamper with, the only point of attack is through the specific individually magically powerful people who do the verifying, who are probably trusted implicitly by the regions who sent them to participate.

    The main hole in the wish plan is that there are a number of (frankly ridiculous in my opinion) ways to say lol I rolled a skill check and you can't tell what spell I cast with spellcraft, but no spells which explicitly tell you what spells are being cast- because spells which help you identify spells as they're being cast get written as extensions of the spellcraft skill. Which makes sense because the core spellcraft skill has no counters, so they hold up until someone decides bluff or sleight of hand or perform should let you fake a spell.

    But even then, Detect Magic doesn't care. How many 7th-9th level Universal spells are there? If there is exactly one lingering strong universal aura, then it could be Limited Wish, Greater Arcane Fusion, or Wish (maybe a couple others, but I'm pretty sure none of them could "fake" anything). Fake it by duping something? Continuous aura means you fail. Arcane Sight will even tell the observer what is your most powerful available spell, so they can see that you had a wish, and then you cast a spell, and then you had no wish.

    Unless of course, that casting wish doesn't involve stating your wish in a detectable way. Nothing in the spell actually says it has to, but most people assume so for obvious reasons, and if it doesn't then sure the whole plan is a non-starter. Either way you can just ask a god whether the wish worked as advertised. Even if you can't leverage knowledge of deific mechanics to just run your election through a deity, you can certainly ask the god of magic if the person who cast the most powerful spell the other day actually did what they said they were doing. If told that you can't ask that question directly, you ask questions about the effects of the magic, and continue drilling down until the DM admits that they don't want you to use Commune for xyz.

    As for the transition of power, dunno how this would be any different. The people who know they have a chance of being picked will be prepared to assume power if chosen, with their picks for offices and whatnot. Using magical or deific voting method doesn't mean any changes to the rest of a presumed functional democratic system.


    Let's be clear: any attempt to safeguard an election against magical tampering is obviously dependent upon the people doing the magic, which can only be verified by other people with magic. The only question is how many people can foil the greatest amount of potential tampering with the least amount of power, so that the fewest number of trustworthy people are required while being verifiable by as many people as possible (oh, a bunch of magicians are claiming their verifications show foul play even though yours aren't, now we're back to the intrigue of whether people believe you or your enemy). Running it through an appropriate deity via Commune can be performed and verified by any 9th level cleric of that deity, who can themselves be vetted in any number of ways. If no deity is considered appropriate, you can instead use a single trustworthy source of wish to manifest the results in a locally verifiable way, and by doing the deed directly with magic you've now made any god with the Magic potrfolio an appropriate god for Commune verification.

    The next best idea I could put forth other than a direct purpose spell would be something that directly uses Sending to reach every voter (Sending cannot be redirected) and tally their responses. This would be a custom item, subject to the trustworthiness of its creator, and could be verified by. . . people capable of unimpeachably identifying items. Identify can be messed with, so you need Analyze Dweomer, which is a level above Commune. I suppose as a stationary item it's easier to bring people in to check on when convenient, but I wouldn't trust it any more than the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Holding the diamond aloft dramatically, the grand mage-elector declares in a loud and clear voice, “I wish for the person who would win if every eligible voter were to vote freely, without duress or compulsion, with full knowledge of the way his vote were to effect the election, to appear in this circle on this stage right now!”
    The question is, was the grand mage-elector supposed to say his?

    As always, the fun part is that once you've drilled through the magic, you can see all the human ways that plot still happens. Maybe the eligible voter clause did the job, but maybe it didn't, and maybe that will have implications. Maybe someone decided to legislate a voting body out of those observers to officially confirm the results, who are now corrupt and claim fraud, when the independent observers don't, or vice-versa. Maybe the last mage who could cast the spell died and no-one can take their place. Maybe someone says they should be replaced with an outsider, even if they're not dead. Maybe burning diamonds on elections for years and years has become a drain on the country's resources. And so on.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2019-01-22 at 07:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Election Security in a D&D/PF world

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    snibety snab
    You made a lot of points, but I just want to address the thing about faking the spell so it can't be figured with spellcraft, which is that it obviously isn't in the wizard casting Wish's best interest to make it hard to tell what spell he cast. He wants it to be as obvious as possible. That is unless one of those skill check things can make it so it's not only impossible to tell what spell was actually cast, but it also looks like something else was cast, in which case it's different of course.

    I also agree that "magic can be faked" isn't a good argument. Someone told me that when I said something about Zone of Truth in court hearing, and he said that the mundane commoners observing the trial have no idea if that's an actual Zone of Truth or not. Sure, but they also have no idea what the investigators, forensic team, judge, lawyers or the coroner are doing behind the scenes either. If there is undetected corruption (or everyone is in on it) then of course the process is going to be bunged up, magic or mundane doesn't change that.
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